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Old 10-08-2001, 04:58 PM   #1
IMPBOY
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Default fuel pump question Walbro vs Supra unit

I have Walbro fuel pump (255 or 280 l/h can't remember from top of my head right now) which maxes out 50 psi without the RRFPR as others have conformed. Even with the Carteck RRFPR (latest from BEGI), I can only go up to about 60 psi or so. That is not enough to run 8-10 psi of boost. I'm hearing detonations like crazy even at 5 psi of boost. I've heard that the Supra TT unit can go 100+ psi of fuel with a RRFPR.

I was doing a search and someone have mentioned that there is a possibility Walbro unit might be pressure controlled therefore have a pressure relief valve. Can anyone actually conform this pressure relief valve and if so, how can I adjust it to have 100 psi of fuel?

If this problem is not solved, I'm just going to buy a Supra TT pump. Does it matter which model year of Supra TT the pump is from? Does it fit without any modification or do I need to make it fit as far as the wiring and brackets are concerned?
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Old 10-08-2001, 08:43 PM   #2
bill harvey
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Toyota part # 23221-46110
enjoy
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Old 10-09-2001, 10:20 AM   #3
HRE | giulio
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is 23221-46110 the part# for an ashtray light?
i seemed to have forgotten the entire toyota parts book

Imp, I replied to your email. but i just remembered something... cant you increase the correction on that FPR? crank it up, see what happens.
g
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:13 AM   #4
bill harvey
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that would be the fuel pump number if you need the ashtraylight i will have to make a phonecall.
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:35 AM   #5
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100+ psi of fuel is not a good idea. You will lock your injectors. Either open or closed depending on their design. If you need that much fuel pressure it is definately time to upgrade injectors.

In addition, a 100 psi most pump flow zero. The higher the pressure, the less the flow. As pressure approches 100psi, flow approaches zero. See
here

Get the injectors. I am sure your pump is fine.
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Old 10-09-2001, 01:10 PM   #6
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Old 10-09-2001, 01:14 PM   #7
Delicious Tuning
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Post Things to think about...

I would go with bigger injectors first. I am having no problems getting the PSI of the Walbro above 60 PSI. I through on a Vortech Super FMU and set it to 4:1. So now if I set the idle pressure to 55 I will hit about 75 with no problem. I was just testing the SFMU to make sure it was working.

Make sure the Cartech is setup for 4:1 or 6:1 or whatever it is you have set at. I am not sure if it is the same as the Vortech but I mixed up the settings the first time and it looked like it wasn't working.

Also are you running parallel lines? Just wondering, you might want to do that if you are running that much Fuel. Also talk to the Cartech guys and ask them about a universal Fuel Pressure Regulator (if you have the parallel line setup) so that you can set the idle fuel pressure. I just got it in the mail and I am going to try it out as soon as I can. Hopefully this will solve the idle fuel pressure problem.

Also be careful running to much Fuel, that can cause problems with the oil. If you run to much fuel it will slip down the sides of the chambers past the piston into the oil pan. And well that just isn't good.

Goto www.rceng.com and order there 440cc's (High Resistance) for 90 bucks each. It's a pretty good deal and they are great guys to talk to. If you are running 8-10PSI this should do you perfectly. If you are going above that, time to go Tec-II, since that seems to be the only thing I can find that will support bigger injectors (500 and higher at low resistance).

Also not sure how cold your injectors are but make sure to have 2 degrees cooler plugs for that much boost.
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Old 10-09-2001, 02:44 PM   #8
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The Cartech is set at max and I only get 61 psi or so. I'd love to go with bigger injectors but they are expensive... BTW, anyone know what the stock injector cc is?
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Old 10-09-2001, 03:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPBOY
The Cartech is set at max and I only get 61 psi or so. I'd love to go with bigger injectors but they are expensive... BTW, anyone know what the stock injector cc is?
IMPBOY:
It sounds like you're not very happy with your BEGI unit, but 61psi may be good for me. Plus, I'm looking to get some adjustability in my system. May I ask where you ordered it from? Good service? Prices?

btw, I'm having a sort of similar problem with my Walbro 255 and a Vortech 4:1. Fuel pressure doesn't seem high enough.
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Old 10-09-2001, 05:27 PM   #10
Delicious Tuning
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The stock injectors are 280cc's. Max Hp out of those is around 200 with good management.
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Old 10-09-2001, 06:56 PM   #11
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
The stock injectors are 280cc's. Max Hp out of those is around 200 with good management.
Great tech info on the RC site.
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Old 10-09-2001, 08:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Things to think about...

Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Goto www.rceng.com and order there 440cc's (High Resistance) for 90 bucks each. It's a pretty good deal and they are great guys to talk to. If you are running 8-10PSI this should do you perfectly. If you are going above that, time to go Tec-II, since that seems to be the only thing I can find that will support bigger injectors (500 and higher at low resistance).
skywalker -- do you run a TecII? If not, how do you compensate for the fact that the larger injectors will be feeding more fuel into the engine under all conditions? Running rich, is of course, better than running lean, and the ECU can compensate for that somewhat anyways when it's running closed loop, but 440/280 is +57%. Perhaps you set your idle fuel pressure to below stock? That may work, with some fiddling.

The 440cc/min injectors do seem properly sized for IMPBOY's application of 10 psi, 4:1 fuel pressure rise, and a BSFC of .65 or so. But that comes out to 39.5gal/hr at 80psi, which is well over the capacity of the Walbro 255lph. The "255lphHP" would be just within spec.
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Old 10-09-2001, 08:46 PM   #13
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My question will ultimately be Dabbler's question....

I have a scooby sport exhaust, cobb intake, borla headers, and under drive pulley. I'm quickly approaching that 200hp mark (which sounds a little low, but we'll go with that) So even if I want to run a puny 3-5psi to begin with, it looks like I'm going to need new injectors, Right? So if I get these 440cc ones, I will need a new fuel pump. I am guessing that I will need some type of RRFPR still, but how do I limit the fuel at idle?

-Jason
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Old 10-10-2001, 12:07 AM   #14
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Well, at this point I'm not sure what is exactly wrong between the Cartech and Walbro.

The Cartech came with the Ludspeed kit, which was defective. It didn't even raise the fuel pressure while under boost. So I spoke with Corky Bell at BEGI and he reutned it to me after the repair. Now it raises pressure but not as much as it should. It capable of increasing the fuel pressure to something like 12:1 so when it is set at max, fuel pressure should be 100+ psi. I thought it was the Carteck at first but then if the fuel pump is not providing enought fuel, I could have a similar situation where fuel pressure is less than what I want. So that's a possibility. Seems like couple of other people are having a problem of Walbro not providing enough fuel so I'm kind of leaning toward that direction too.

Are the 440 cc injectors from RC direct swap for the stock ones?
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Old 10-10-2001, 12:54 AM   #15
Delicious Tuning
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I am currently not running a Tec-II and I have not installed my injectors yet because I am waiting on another piece of equipment for the Fuel pressure. CarTech is selling a Universal Fuel Pressure Regulator that will replace the stock FPR. It is a little pricy BUT you can set the idle fuel pressure to whatever you want and it will act like a standard FPR in vacuum.

That is the first thing I am installing, the second thing I have done is rerouted the fuel lines in parallel so as to not have one piston running leaner then any other.

Also mcgyver is running 380cc's right now and the the only managment he has is a RRFPR by Weapon R. He seems to be haivng no problems spiking the Boost up to levels of about 12. Of course he does have the boost taper off as the RPM's get higher. To the best of my knowledge he is also running a Walbro High Flow Fuel Pump. I have not heard any pings from his car under 9 pounds of boost.

As for setting the idle pressure, I believe his idle pressure is as low as 25 pounds from the last time I saw. So I will have to lower the idle pressure in order to allow the same amount of fuel through. Shouldn't be to hard to do with the right equipment.

The 440cc's are not exatly a direct swap. You will have to cut the wires to the injectors or make a harness of some sort to them. Pretty simple though... But they do have top mount injectors which will sit right in place supposedly. You can always ask them.

As for not enough fuel pressure. Are you running the stock FPR along wiht the Cartech or not? I noticed as soon as I took that out and was running just the Vortech Super FMU by itself I started having problems, not enough fuel. But as soon as the stock FPR was back in, actually have to much fuel. That is why I ordered a universal FPR so i can set the idle pressure and then work on the boost fuel pressure after.

Last edited by Delicious Tuning; 10-10-2001 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 10-10-2001, 02:19 AM   #16
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I'm planning on getting a fuel pump soon.. do you guys recommend the supra one or the walbro one? Also is the Walbro Mustang 255 Hi-pressure pump GSS340, one for the mustang a direct drop in?

Thanks.
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Old 10-10-2001, 02:46 AM   #17
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I do have the stock fpr. Cartech does not replace the stock fpr, it sits after the fpr in fuel return line.
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Old 10-10-2001, 12:09 PM   #18
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPBOY
I do have the stock fpr. Cartech does not replace the stock fpr, it sits after the fpr in fuel return line.
Which model of Cartech/BEGI RRFPR do you have? I thought some of them were able to set idle pressure, which I assumed meant that they would have to replace the stock FPR? I believe the Vortech SuperFMU can be installed either way (in series or replacement). The base Vortech FMU, of course, must be plumbed in series.
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Old 10-10-2001, 12:54 PM   #19
Delicious Tuning
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I tried the Super FMU by itself and I can not get the fuel pressure high enough so my car will make awful noises and just crap out. Also if you were to get it to work, the Super FMU idle pressure will not change according to vacuum as your Stock FPR does, that is also a problem.

Avenger
If you are not going above 300BHP then get the Walbro High Flow Fuel Pump. That will serve your purposes well. If you are goign above that the Supra Fuel Pump is probably the best way to go. Also I think you want to model GSS342 for our cars but I am not positive, it will be a direct drop in replacement.
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Old 10-10-2001, 02:47 PM   #20
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Hi guys. I have the Ludespeed kit as well, with the Walbro pump. I asked Tom for a different RRFPR, it's the one Shiv used in Project Impreza - it only kicks in after it sees 7 or 8 psi of boost. When I had these two installed together, my idle fuel pressure was insane.. around 60 psi, sometimes higher. My car was constantly stalling. Adjusting my AFC didn't help. So I installed a Paxton Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator and removed the stock regulator, and dialed in the idle FP to around 38. When I was running 8 psi and above, my fuel pressure would spike up real high, i think once it even went up to 100 psi (I have an electronic fuel pressure gauge installed) so I think the fuel pump is more than capable of delivering the pressure we need. I have since been running 5psi and removed the RRFPR (I'll sell it if anyone wants it). My fuel pressure now approaches 60 psi under WOT. Next I want to go with bigger injectors, parallel lines, and programmable engine management.
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Old 10-10-2001, 06:17 PM   #21
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Do you get any pinging at 60 PSI at WOT? What are you using for Fuel management now, the Paxton Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator?

Just curious...
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Old 10-10-2001, 09:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Do you get any pinging at 60 PSI at WOT? What are you using for Fuel management now, the Paxton Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator?

Just curious...
I'm curious, too. 60psi with the stock injectors comes out to 342cc/min. This works out to around a 0.47 BSFC, assuming around 220hp (5psi).

Although, my understanding of BSFC is that it does not in and of itself necessarily indicate a rich/lean condition, unless it were excessively high/low. Excessive meaning less than 0.35 or greater than 0.65 (IIRC).
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Old 10-10-2001, 09:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
I tried the Super FMU by itself and I can not get the fuel pressure high enough so my car will make awful noises and just crap out. Also if you were to get it to work, the Super FMU idle pressure will not change according to vacuum as your Stock FPR does, that is also a problem.
The SuperFMU install manual indicates you can hook it up to reduce fuel pressure under vacuum. Are you saying this didn't work correctly? Or did your unit not have this function?
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Old 10-10-2001, 10:12 PM   #24
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It does have the functionality of setting the idle fuel pressure but I am either retarded and can't figure it out or it is broken. I called Vortech and they said to look at the vacuum screw and make sure it is not to tight, if it is it could have broken the ball and then the idle fuel pressure will not work and sit at the lowest setting of 25PSI (which it does now).

Just to let you know I bought this used and have not had much luck with it yet, wondering if it is broken. Sort of sucks... Would really like this working. Right now I am running to much fuel.

I am going to look at it a little bit and see what the problem might be and test it out again to see if I just missed something. There are only so many things on there and in my impatients I probably overlooked something stupid. Well at least this is what I am hoping.

Being dumb is sometimes cheaper then finding out something is broken.
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Old 10-13-2001, 01:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by the Dabbler

I'm curious, too. 60psi with the stock injectors comes out to 342cc/min. This works out to around a 0.47 BSFC, assuming around 220hp (5psi).

Although, my understanding of BSFC is that it does not in and of itself necessarily indicate a rich/lean condition, unless it were excessively high/low. Excessive meaning less than 0.35 or greater than 0.65 (IIRC).

Verrrrrrom eeeeerrr BUMP...

Ok i'm confused... skywalker above said 200hp was the most the stock fuel pump could see (of course he also said the stock injectors were 280cc) so which is it? 342cc/min or 280, and is 220 hp enough for the stock fuel pressure?

My questions come from me wanting to run about 5psi, or get somewhere around 250hp (I have lots of NA bolt-ons and am already somewhere around 200) So what am I looking at for 5psi? An RRFPR? just that or would I need a fuel pump too? I see lots of idle problems, what riser is best that allows for idle pressures?

If Shiv's fpr didn't come on till 7psi, does that mean the stock fuel pump was good for at least 6 psi stock? Or does that take in to account larger injectors?

There are so many variables here it's ridiculous, can someone post some of those fancy calculations again... ones like. Fuel pressure with X sized injectors flow Y which is good for Z horse power... etc etc..

It seems like some people have solved one problem but have another and vice-versa, so if we all work together, maybe we can find a setup that works right.

So at the very least, can everyone in this thread post:
-Year model
-FPR type/manufacturer/setting (inline/cartech/5:1)
-injector size
-fuel pump specs
-psi running
-approx hp

Thanks!

-Jason
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