Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday July 29, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2001, 07:00 PM   #1
xephyr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 665
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Evergreen CO
Vehicle:
1998 2.5 RS-T
Black

Question B-Spec USA engine question

How many people out there have a B-Spec built engine? Is it a 2.5 or a 2.2? How much boost are you running and does it burn oil or have any other problems?

The reason I am asking is because I have a 2.5 B-Spec engine with chromoly rods, forged pistons, knife edged crank, etc, running 20+ pounds of boost. There is just one problem: it burns a lot of oil. If anyone else has this problem please respond.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
xephyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 07:15 PM   #2
Jaxx
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 177
Join Date: Aug 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Boise,Idaho,USA
Vehicle:
The 93 Imp W/EJ20K
flat black

Default

are you running synthetic?
Jaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 08:53 PM   #3
kaos200
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2692
Join Date: Oct 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SoCal
Default

what CR are you running with 20psi?
engine management?
turbo?
Where have you been!? lol, only 7 posts and you must be pushing 350hp easy if tuned right?
kaos200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 09:22 PM   #4
xephyr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 665
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Evergreen CO
Vehicle:
1998 2.5 RS-T
Black

Default

Injectors are 550 cc/min RX-7 version 2 injectors. Compression is about 8.5:1. Engine management is the stock ECU, and a S-AFC(compensating at -50%). The car ran great except for the blue smoke because of the burning oil. The fastest timeslip was a 13.9 at Bandimere. I have a feeling all the oil in the exhaust was plugging up the cats and causing excessive backpressure. B-Spec's engine was only in the car for 1 week, and has been sitting on the workbench for the past six months. We just recently found why the engine is burning oil and it appears to be a problem with the oil rings on the pistons. Right now the car has a stock 2.2 L Turbo Legacy motor running 20 psi and it runs equally well, and doesn't burn a quart of oil a day! There is some significant loss of low end torque. I've been running this setup for quite some time now (since I pulled B-spec's motor out) and I like the easy availability of Turbo Legacy motors. Despite all the hype out there about running 20 psi of boost on the Turbo Legacy motor, the motor does fine. People here in Colorado do it all the time. As long as you have enough fuel, and intercooling capacity, those motors will run 15-20psi of boost ALL DAY.
xephyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 09:54 PM   #5
kastle
Frank Army
 
Member#: 1457
Join Date: May 2000
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Vehicle:
1999 Outback Sport
Steel Blue Mica

Default

kastle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 10:46 PM   #6
kaos200
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2692
Join Date: Oct 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SoCal
Default Is your name Chris Moreno?

Quote:
Originally posted by xephyr
Injectors are 550 cc/min RX-7 version 2 injectors. Compression is about 8.5:1. Engine management is the stock ECU, and a S-AFC(compensating at -50%). The car ran great except for the blue smoke because of the burning oil. The fastest timeslip was a 13.9 at Bandimere. I have a feeling all the oil in the exhaust was plugging up the cats and causing excessive backpressure. B-Spec's engine was only in the car for 1 week, and has been sitting on the workbench for the past six months. We just recently found why the engine is burning oil and it appears to be a problem with the oil rings on the pistons. Right now the car has a stock 2.2 L Turbo Legacy motor running 20 psi and it runs equally well, and doesn't burn a quart of oil a day! There is some significant loss of low end torque. I've been running this setup for quite some time now (since I pulled B-spec's motor out) and I like the easy availability of Turbo Legacy motors. Despite all the hype out there about running 20 psi of boost on the Turbo Legacy motor, the motor does fine. People here in Colorado do it all the time. As long as you have enough fuel, and intercooling capacity, those motors will run 15-20psi of boost ALL DAY.
if you ARE running 20 psi on that block somehow, and with that setup, why in gods name wont you get engine management and do it right, youll have alot more power and drivability. I dont understand how anyone can run what you are without engine management, its just asking for trouble.
kaos200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 10:53 PM   #7
bsquare
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1911
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
Silverthorn Metallic

Default

Simple, he got it from B-Spec. Xephyr, you might want to go make your the fuel lines on your car are actually fuel line, otherwise you might have a fire on your hands. 13.9 on 20psi in an EJ25 is absolutely pathetic. You should be running low 12s with that.


Ben
bsquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 11:00 PM   #8
xephyr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 665
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Evergreen CO
Vehicle:
1998 2.5 RS-T
Black

Default

Jaxx:

No, I was not using synthetic oil. At a quart a day, I wouldn't be able to afford it!

As I said earlier, the problem appears to be with the oil ring. B-Spec custom machined a set of pistons using Ford wrist pins. The wrist pins are heavier duty pins, yet the outside diameter of the pin is smaller than the Subaru specifications. The benefit of using these wrist pins is not simply in the added benefit of the stronger pin, but more importantly in the ability to move the piston rings farther down from the top of the piston because the hole in the side of the piston is smaller. Why is moving the rings down away from the top a good thing? Because now you have more material between the top of the piston and the top of the 1st compression ring. This added strength makes a piston very resilient against detonation, and in general a much stronger piston.

The problem with B-Spec's particular set of pistons, is that they moved the rings TOO far down. Some of you reading this are probably very familiar with how wrist pins are installed in a Subaru. There are 2 holes in the front and 2 holes in the back of the block used for assembly, where the wrist pins are allowed to slide into the piston through the side of the cylinder wall. When you align the piston at bottom dead center, and look through the respective wrist pin hole, you should be able to see the side of the piston and the wrist pin. You should NOT see the oil ring of the piston. On B-Spec's pistons, I see the oil ring very clearly. Remember, the oil ring is supposed to keep oil from reaching the the other two rings. Because B'Spec's oil ring protrudes down to the wrist pin access hole in the block, the oil seal is breached, and oil is able to get around the oil ring.
xephyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2001, 11:01 PM   #9
kaos200
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2692
Join Date: Oct 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SoCal
Default

nvm

Last edited by kaos200; 04-01-2013 at 12:59 AM.
kaos200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 12:28 AM   #10
DaveK
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 2338
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
1988 323 GTX
black

Default

Since you ran at bandiemere, I'm assuming you live in the denver area. I'm running 9psi on a TEC-II with stock internals, and I'd bet I'm somewhere in the same ballpark on 1/4 times. Let the CO people know the next time you're headed out to the track.

Dave
DaveK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 01:12 AM   #11
inpreza kid
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3334
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Default

keep in mind that this engine has a built up bottom end. with low compression pistons, stronger rods, and crank i'm sure it can handle quite a bit of boost.
inpreza kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 01:43 AM   #12
kaos200
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2692
Join Date: Oct 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SoCal
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by inpreza kid
keep in mind that this engine has a built up bottom end. with low compression pistons, stronger rods, and crank i'm sure it can handle quite a bit of boost.
I realize that, but that doesnt mean squat without the right engine management controlling everything.
That and 550cc injectors using a stock ecu (from a 2.5 no less) and an SAFC???
no timing control?
kaos200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 01:57 AM   #13
xephyr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 665
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Evergreen CO
Vehicle:
1998 2.5 RS-T
Black

Default

Hey DaveK: You've ridden in my car. You've seen me up at JC Sports. Remember, I was messing around with that programmable ECU from England? I am the guy with the black 98 RS and gold wheels. I can't remember if you ever saw my car with Byron's engine though. Next time I go to Bandimere I'll call you. I have to get a new tranny first. I blew second again last night. Come up to JC Sports tomorrow sometime; I should be there.
xephyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 04:19 AM   #14
HndaTch627
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6551
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Carol Stream, IL
Vehicle:
'01 GC8 Dinged STM
'09 Concours 14 ABS Black

Default

kaos i am with ya on the BS flag. But as far as the piston rigns go that DOESN'T suprise me. But the qestion is WHY did your Oil control rings fail??

jeremy
HndaTch627 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 04:39 AM   #15
bsquare
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1911
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
Silverthorn Metallic

Default

This really sounds like another B-Spec engine hack job.


Ben
bsquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 05:07 AM   #16
xephyr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 665
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Evergreen CO
Vehicle:
1998 2.5 RS-T
Black

Angry

You guys don't read very well.

Number one:

The rings didn't fail. THEY ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE. When the pistons were machined, the groove for the oil ring was cut in a location too far from the top of the piston ( or too close to the wrist pin, however you want to look at it). Therefore, each time the piston hits bottom dead center, the oil ring comes down all the way to the area where the wrist pin installation holes are located. These holes therefore allow oil to pass around the rings, where there is not supposed to be oil, and into the combustion chamber. THE RINGS THEMSELVES ARE FINE. There are no damaged components at all. The pistons were just designed wrong.

Number two:

The timeslips were slow because I was burning a TON of oil. We're talking about 1 quart in 2 hrs., which is about all I drove the car in a day during this time period. When you are burning this much oil, you are seriously choking the combustion process, no matter how much boost you are running.

Number three:

I placed this post to find out how many other people had problems with engines from B-Spec, not to be publically lynched and scrutinized by a bunch of amateur wanna be Subaru techs who obviously think that if someone they know on the I-club has not done something, then it can't be done. I did not post this thread to write an in depth article on all the stupid mods I've done to my car. The reason we are using a stock ECU is because we are experimenting to see how much power can be extracted from a stock ECU. IT IS VERY OBVIOUS THAT A PROPERLY TUNED PROGRAMMABLE ECU WILL OUTPERFORM A STOCK ECU ON A HEAVILY MODIFIED ENGINE.

Once again, I implore you to help me with any information regarding people who have had any bad experiences with built engines from B-Spec. I already know of one (thank you very much kastle).

P.S. - What I have on my car DOESN'T matter. In case you are wondering, I have had 5 separate motors and three different turbos on my car in the past year (along with many other things). I do a lot of experimenting with Subaru's to pioneer and further OUR CAUSE, the continuous and further advancement of Subaru aftermarket technology. If you don't believe me, ask anyone you know from Colorado who has seen me at JC Sports. I am the guy with the 98 black RS and gold wheels.

REMEMBER: This message board was created with the positive intention of the advancement of OUR sport. Useless bashing, critical inquisition, and other assorted BS do not accomplish any of the aforementioned goals.
xephyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 05:52 AM   #17
HOK
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Oh Canada
Vehicle:
1999 EJ22T222B&EVO
Are we racing yet?

Default

yoooooosh

I will back you... xephyr

Although i don't know if you are BS ing... I run a EJ22t motor and I run 15 psi on street and 18-20 on track. I don't have my SBC-id yet but I am running an MBC which creeps the boost to 20 in 4th and 5th when i set it to higher boost. It runs fine i have 440 injectors and SAFC virtually the same thing as xephyr. And it does fine (1/2 yr of TC'd). Compression test was good... (touch touch)

Though i have no experience with B-Spec, your setup is plausible though cause i have it.

BTW i don't know why you wouldn't go with Cobb's stuff.. if you were to build the motor like that... Thats what i'm planning to do along with some Engine mgmt when i get serious.

Hok
HOK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 05:52 AM   #18
bsquare
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1911
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
Silverthorn Metallic

Default

xephyr:

Relax, don't take it so personally. I don't think anyone meant to attack your abilities or intentions (but if they did, who cares? They don't know you!). Good luck with your engine, and from all the information on this board, I'd say don't let B-Spec near it again.


Ben
bsquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 08:34 AM   #19
SteveS
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 6
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: South Jersey
Vehicle:
2007 BMW Z4 M Coupe
Interlagos Blue

Default

Xephyr ~~ Sounds like you know exactly what is wrong with your B-Spec engine. I would bitch and complain to them. Did B-Spec even run the engine after building it? How could they not notice this? B-Spec has also done a spectacular job for Dan Evander.

If you guys were reading, he posted up front that he's running 550cc injectors...
SteveS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 11:25 AM   #20
STiShawn
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2348
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: St.Louis
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
Steel Grey Metallic

Default

Have you read Dans comments in "How not to turbo your Impreza"..sounds like B-Spec strikes again with yet another ppor design..
STiShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 02:22 PM   #21
NickSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 626
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Miami FL
Vehicle:
2001 Impreza 2.5 RS
Black Diamond Pearl

Default

like was said you seem to know exactly what is wrong with your setup. I dont think much people have b-spec built up 2.2 engines. Cobb Tuning makes lots of stuff and you should check em out.

Also how does your car handle the 550cc injectors and a stock 2.5L ecu? Mine didnt drive very well with the stock ecu 550cc injectors and turbo in. drove even worse with a bigger fuel pump in too.
NickSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 05:37 PM   #22
xephyr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 665
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Evergreen CO
Vehicle:
1998 2.5 RS-T
Black

Default B-Spec update

Just to clarify a few more things:

1. B-Spec did not tune my car. B-Spec has never seen my car. They sent me a custom shortblock. I do most of my own work (except engine internals fabrication). I assmebled the heads, shimmed the lifters, etc, myself. Therefore, B-Spec should not be held accountable for any of the tuning of the car.

2. I am not bashing B-Spec. For the most part, I have not had any problems with B-Spec. I have dealt with them numerous times in the past, and they have been more than fair, and have tried to be as accomodating as possible.

Once again, I do not have a problem with B-Spec. I DO have a problem with the pistons they sent me. I am pulling the pistons out this week. Byron has contacted us and has arranged to send me the correct specification pistons.
xephyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 06:10 PM   #23
MZM
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 514
Join Date: Nov 1999
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego
Vehicle:
07 Legacy Spec B
Impreza 93 STI

Default Educational

Quote:
Once again, I do not have a problem with B-Spec. I DO have a problem with the pistons they sent me. I am pulling the pistons out this week. Byron has contacted us and has arranged to send me the correct specification pistons.
xephyr - Your information has been enlightening and informative. That critical bit of knowledge about the piston ring groove location is a real jem. Please skip over those few know everything guys who have a need to tell you what you really mean. Don't bother to justify your report; those who have actually taken a Suby boxer engine apart will know and appreciate your information.

Especially appreciated is your mature comments quoted above. Not blaming someone else but instead getting the problem corrected will go a lot further than raising "BS Flags". I hope you continue to share your experiences for the people who enjoy improving Suby engine performance.

I barely know the B-Spec people, and have never had business dealings with them, but now would be a great time to get a 2.2 short block from there. I am totally confident they have learned from this experience and the next one will be perfect.

Hooray for the people who solve problems, not make more of them.

Mike McBride
MZM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 06:13 PM   #24
MZM
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 514
Join Date: Nov 1999
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego
Vehicle:
07 Legacy Spec B
Impreza 93 STI

Default sp

I meant gem, not jem. Please excuse.


MM
MZM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2001, 06:43 PM   #25
Danny5
The Emperor Protects
Moderator
 
Member#: 13
Join Date: Jun 1999
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Glendale, AZ
Vehicle:
2014 Chevy Cruze
Diesel

Default

My short block was built to their (B-Spec's) specifications and did not burn oil. (Well, until it crushed pistons )

YMMV

-Danny
Danny5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
B-Spec USA (merged thread) adamsrs Vendor Reviews 6 08-03-2002 03:21 AM
Attn B-Spec USA buddies Longitude Southern California Impreza Club Forum -- SCIC 5 11-06-2001 07:46 PM
('93-'01) question about J-Spec and US-Spec WRX engine FuJi K Impreza Forum 6 07-10-2001 10:49 AM
Question for the Subaru engine builders: Cobb Tuning, B Spec USA, Rallispec, et al. Digital_Boy Normally Aspirated Powertrain 0 01-31-2001 03:13 AM
B-Spec USA Clutch @ 10% savings vkracing Hawaii Impreza Club Forum -- HIIC 0 01-09-2001 05:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.