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Old 05-08-2006, 08:26 AM   #1
xeve
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Default knock with 10.2 AFR Stg 4?!

First - Many thanks for the concise and approachable guide. I drive an '03 wrx sedan w/ an APS S/R30 turbo and pod intake. Up-pipe, turbo back 3". No cats. STI inj and pump. And a UTEC with LC-1WB...

I get an occational knock even when running low boost and low 10 AFR. Here is an example. I tuned the boost down and am running rick and conservative. Does this mean I have real engine problems or poor tuning.

I tried to follow Mick's tuning guide after reading the manual twice. Only thing I haven't done is measwure ST and LT fuel trims. (is there a way to do it w/o factory tool?)

Not sure how to post the map better...

Thanks - Xeve

3766 9.6 3.6 97 60 0 10.7 18.6 43.2 16.4 0.8 250 3.3
3940 11 3.5 97 70 0 10.7 17.5 45 16.4 0.9 250 3.3
4100 12.5 3.8 97 80 0 10.6 16.4 52.8 16.4 0.8 250 3.5
4230 13.9 3.7 97 80 0 10.2 16.3 54.7 17 0.9 250 3.6
4480 15.1 3.9 97 80 0 10.4 14.9 57.2 17 0.9 250 3.6
4688 15.5 3.9 97 80 0 10.5 15.4 61.1 18.8 0.9 250 3.6
4775 15.5 4 97 80 0 10.4 16.1 64.5 19.4 0.1 250 3.6
5035 15.3 4 97 80 0 10.3 18.4 65.6 21 -0.9 250 3.6
5167 15.3 4 97 80 0 10.3 20.9 70.6 21 -0.8 250 3.7
5333 14.7 4.1 97 80 0 10.3 22.6 72.4 21 -1 250 3.7
5500 15.1 4.1 97 80 0 10.4 22.8 74.3 21 -0.9 250 3.8
5668 14.9 4.1 96 80 0 10.3 23.6 76.2 21.6 -0.9 250 3.8
5878 14.3 4.2 97 80 0 10.3 23.7 77.9 21.5 -0.7 250 3.8
6093 14.9 4.2 97 80 0 10.3 24.6 78.9 22 -0.5 250 3.9
6230 14.1 4.3 97 80 0 10.3 24.9 82.9 22 -0.6 250 3.9
6325 13.9 4.2 96 70 1 10.2 27.1 84.2 14 -0.7 250 3.9
6510 13.5 4.3 76 70 0 10.1 28.2 71.9 14 -0.7 250 2.4
6038 7.8 2.1 0 0 0 10.8 10.9 9.4 ECU. -1 ECU. 1.9
5868 1.7 2.1 0 0 0 12.3 10.7 9.2 ECU. -1 ECU. 1.9
5089 -4.3 2.5 12 0 0 13.5 17.9 24.1 ECU. -1 ECU. 2.8
4675 -7.5 3.3 59 10 0 12 30.4 36.7 21.5 -0.1 250 3.1
4629 -4.5 3.6 86 20 0 10.6 24 47.7 21.8 -0.1 250 3.4
4768 0.8 3.8 97 40 0 10.9 18.8 56.5 22.1 -0.1 250 3.5
4761 7 3.9 97 60 0 10.3 16.9 62.5 19.6 0.1 250 3.6
4880 10.2 4 97 70 0 10.1 16.5 63.7 19.8 -0.6 250 3.7
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Old 05-08-2006, 08:58 AM   #2
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Code:
3766 9.6  3.6 97 60 0 10.7 18.6 43.2 16.4  0.8 250 3.3
3940 11   3.5 97 70 0 10.7 17.5 45   16.4  0.9 250 3.3
4100 12.5 3.8 97 80 0 10.6 16.4 52.8 16.4  0.8 250 3.5
4230 13.9 3.7 97 80 0 10.2 16.3 54.7 17    0.9 250 3.6
4480 15.1 3.9 97 80 0 10.4 14.9 57.2 17    0.9 250 3.6
4688 15.5 3.9 97 80 0 10.5 15.4 61.1 18.8  0.9 250 3.6
4775 15.5 4   97 80 0 10.4 16.1 64.5 19.4  0.1 250 3.6
5035 15.3 4   97 80 0 10.3 18.4 65.6 21   -0.9 250 3.6
5167 15.3 4   97 80 0 10.3 20.9 70.6 21   -0.8 250 3.7
5333 14.7 4.1 97 80 0 10.3 22.6 72.4 21     -1 250 3.7
5500 15.1 4.1 97 80 0 10.4 22.8 74.3 21   -0.9 250 3.8
5668 14.9 4.1 96 80 0 10.3 23.6 76.2 21.6 -0.9 250 3.8
5878 14.3 4.2 97 80 0 10.3 23.7 77.9 21.5 -0.7 250 3.8
6093 14.9 4.2 97 80 0 10.3 24.6 78.9 22   -0.5 250 3.9
6230 14.1 4.3 97 80 0 10.3 24.9 82.9 22   -0.6 250 3.9
6325 13.9 4.2 96 70 1 10.2 27.1 84.2 14   -0.7 250 3.9
6510 13.5 4.3 76 70 0 10.1 28.2 71.9 14   -0.7 250 2.4
6038 7.8  2.1 0   0 0 10.8 10.9 9.4  Ecu.   -1 Ecu. 1.9
5868 1.7  2.1 0   0 0 12.3 10.7 9.2  Ecu.   -1 Ecu. 1.9
5089 -4.3 2.5 12  0 0 13.5 17.9 24.1 Ecu.   -1 Ecu. 2.8
4675 -7.5 3.3 59 10 0 12   30.4 36.7 21.5 -0.1 250 3.1
4629 -4.5 3.6 86 20 0 10.6 24   47.7 21.8 -0.1 250 3.4
4768 0.8  3.8 97 40 0 10.9 18.8 56.5 22.1 -0.1 250 3.5
4761 7    3.9 97 60 0 10.3 16.9 62.5 19.6  0.1 250 3.6
4880 10.2 4   97 70 0 10.1 16.5 63.7 19.8 -0.6 250 3.7
here's a more readable form...

questions:

1) does the pod intake retain stock maf tube diameter?
2) does the knock always occur at that load area?
3) what octane gas?

ken
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Old 05-08-2006, 09:06 AM   #3
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if the knock is always there, I would assume it to be the tune and that you need to pull timing and while you are at it, you can probably lean it out a little bit...
this is if the pod intake was on pre-knock, it would be a lead for the reason asked above.
take it easy, Micah
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Old 05-08-2006, 04:13 PM   #4
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Thanks guys!

Answers are I'm not sure but think the APS pod retains the stock diameter. The knock appears only occasionally (I recorded 8 3rd gear pulls with Logger and only had 1 knock). It happens here and there not always at the same place but only under WOT. I just got the WB installed and my AFR are not higher than mid 10's under WOT/boost. Will the new software 5.0 correct the timing map for me? I just loaded it and chnaged a few params 48-boost gain, 6psi-wastegate, etc. Do I understand it correctly, that should it find a knock, it will pull timing to that cell? (I specified 0.5 degree per knock just in case)... Thanks again for the feedback.

PS- pod's been on all along.
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Old 05-08-2006, 04:16 PM   #5
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One more thing, since I uploaded the 5.0 software (this morning), I haven't seen any knocks. Though, the boost is only 14psi with their base stg4 map. Would it be safe, after I diagnose the knock, to increase the afr to low 11's. What does the wrx community suggest for safe AFR at the various rpm points...

Thanks again.
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Old 05-08-2006, 07:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeve
One more thing, since I uploaded the 5.0 software (this morning), I haven't seen any knocks. Though, the boost is only 14psi with their base stg4 map. Would it be safe, after I diagnose the knock, to increase the afr to low 11's. What does the wrx community suggest for safe AFR at the various rpm points...

Thanks again.
What octane fuel do you run 95% of the time?
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Old 05-08-2006, 07:23 PM   #7
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I'm not convinced that its knock yet. It could just be a noisy engine. 1 count under those conditions seems like it. After you diagnose the issue its completely safe to increase the AFRs towards 11s, just compensate with lowering the timing first, dial in AFR, then bring back timing.
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Old 05-08-2006, 08:37 PM   #8
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I run 93 only and add techron once in a blue moon. how can I determine if its real or not? I simply back off and take it easy for a while. certainly don't want to cause damage, but also want to push the boost to 18 or so... do you guys know if the new utec software actually changes the timing maps permanently if you specify or am I reading it wrong. thanks again for the help...
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Old 05-09-2006, 07:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeve
I run 93 only and add techron once in a blue moon. how can I determine if its real or not? I simply back off and take it easy for a while. certainly don't want to cause damage, but also want to push the boost to 18 or so... do you guys know if the new utec software actually changes the timing maps permanently if you specify or am I reading it wrong. thanks again for the help...
without detcans, the easiest way is to bump up octane via some tolulene/xylene/torco (mmt), and see if the noise persists. if it does, it is likely just mechanical racket. if it goes away, probably knock.
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Old 05-09-2006, 12:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
without detcans, the easiest way is to bump up octane via some tolulene/xylene/torco (mmt), and see if the noise persists. if it does, it is likely just mechanical racket. if it goes away, probably knock.
That or just pull timing. If he removes 2 deg and it still doesn't it, then it probably isn't knock. Besides 22deg is more timing than the stock STIV map anyway.
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Old 05-09-2006, 11:06 PM   #11
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Knock might be misfire from being too rich. I have seen that happen before.

Jeff
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Old 05-10-2006, 12:32 AM   #12
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Whose Wideband logs to the stock position like that or are you running the super cool UTI software. <- Yes Navy that was just for you.

Anyway if you are really running 10.2:1 lean that puppy out. That's way too rich and I would second Navy and say you have rich misfire issues.

If that's not a wideband then get one.
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Old 05-10-2006, 12:28 PM   #13
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Man - You guys are so helpful. This forum is awesome! Thanks for the info. I am using the Innovative LC-1 with the MPS Utec Logger. Its an amazing tool that interfaces the wideband and the utec...

So after the 5.0 version upload, I haven't seen any knock. I've done a dozen or so 3rd gear pulls and numerous 1,2,3,4th logs and nothing. I've since up'd the boost via upping the stg 4 maps by 50 across the board. I also turned the ABC a few turns.

I now get max boost of around 17 at 4800 RPM and it drops to 15 at 6800.

I am taking the Tuning guide advbise of getting boost (safely) accurate then dialing in fuel and timing. My AFR's are low 10's at max boost (sometimes high 9's) and never go past 10.4...

Do you guys think its safer to:
a) up the boost to say 18 max 17 at redline via boost map/abc
b) modify the fueling to run less rich (low 11's), will doing this increase the boost?

Thanks again for all the input! I truly appreciate it.
Xeve
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Old 05-10-2006, 01:37 PM   #14
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If you like MPS, try UTI. its like comparing a calculator to a computer.

Anyways, Try running around 11:1 near 18-20psi and you should be good. Make sure your timing isnt too aggressive as well.

Jeff
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Old 05-10-2006, 02:57 PM   #15
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I thought it didn't support the version5 software. I'll try it... Thanks for the info. Will leaning it out add boost due to more efficient combustion? Or should I add the boost to the desired level 1st. Also, is a spike of 20 dangerous? Should my highest boost be 18 with a reduction at baseline? My injector duty cycle is up to mid 80's at highest load. That's running real rich though, am I right that if I add boost the AFR should get leaner? I don't have a feel for it, so I'll refer to your suggestions...

Xeve
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Old 05-10-2006, 04:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge
Anyway if you are really running 10.2:1 lean that puppy out. That's way too rich and I would second Navy and say you have rich misfire issues.
I doubt this. Stock it will run in the 10.2 range and even in the high 9s at some points. No misfires or knock. You have to be REALLY REALLY rich to rich knock and at some really low RPMs to misfire from too much fuel.
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Old 05-10-2006, 08:39 PM   #17
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Well I have seen knock in the past from running too rich. Low 10's and anything in the 9's is definitely too rich regardless.

Jeff
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
Well I have seen knock in the past from running too rich. Low 10's and anything in the 9's is definitely too rich regardless.

Jeff
Oh no doubt it could use a leaning, but I dunno that its rich knock because you gotta just be really really stupid rich. Your car had other issues at the time, IIRC.
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:47 PM   #19
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what do you suggest ?

should I be concerned and NOT up the boost to desired level until I figure where the knock is coming from?

should I up the boost to desired level?

should I lean it first then add boost to desired level ?

thanks again all!
xeve
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Old 05-12-2006, 05:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdvma
I doubt this. Stock it will run in the 10.2 range and even in the high 9s at some points. No misfires or knock. You have to be REALLY REALLY rich to rich knock and at some really low RPMs to misfire from too much fuel.
I get knock reported from UTEC when I go into the 9's for more than an instant.

As everyone said, lean it out and remove some timing. You have too much currently IMO. The power difference from 10.0 to 11.2 is HUGE.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:06 AM   #21
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New topics:

On the boost map, I have increase the UTEC base stg4 map by 100 across the board. Why do they ramp up the boost instead of making the lower load points higher? Wouldn't that reduce lag?

As for fuel tuning, I've decreased areas by upto -1 and still run in the low 10's under max boost. What type of values are reasonable. ie is -7 too much if that's what it takes to get 11.5:1?

Thanks! Xeve
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:28 PM   #22
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I got -4 in some spots.
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:33 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeve
New topics:

On the boost map, I have increase the UTEC base stg4 map by 100 across the board. Why do they ramp up the boost instead of making the lower load points higher? Wouldn't that reduce lag?
would not really reduce lag, and makes the car less drivable by virtue of a twitchy throttle that is hard to modulate.

Quote:
As for fuel tuning, I've decreased areas by upto -1 and still run in the low 10's under max boost. What type of values are reasonable. ie is -7 too much if that's what it takes to get 11.5:1?
-7 is fine if that's what the map requires. just keep in mind that larger offsets will make the oem ecu timing less useful as a reference point.
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Old 05-17-2006, 03:21 PM   #24
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I actually have -11 in some spots, but theres a special reason for that. In the normal area of my map the most I typically pull is -8.

Jeff
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:18 AM   #25
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Guys I've increases my AFR from the low 10's to high 10's and still get accasional knock. 1 out of 6 3rd gear runs and more 4th gear pulls give knock out of the blue. The boost is where it should be, the WB AFR's are right and steady...

I'm not sure if the timing is being pulled by the UTEC of if its real. Everything moves along around 20deg then it drops to 13.5 or 14.5 where the knock is.

Please advise.

Thanks - Xeve
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