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Old 01-06-2002, 03:45 AM   #1
supermoose
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Default pondering: NA high power 1.8 ? parts compatibility with ej20? help!!!!

hey. im pondering doing an all motor ej18. mike at spd has casually referanced a 210ps ej18 with 4 velocity stacks and bundle of snakes exhaust.

dont flame me, read the whole post. if u wanna flame me hit up:

supermoose@hotmail.com. i have my reasons for all motor ej18. i have no problem doing a EJ20K swap, just pondering somthign differnt.

i need some help.!

questions:

1. 4 velocity stacks - this means quad throttle bodies with air horns(short or long) right?

2. bundle of snakes exhaust. what is that? is it equal length 4 into 1 like a 4-1 honda header?

3. does anyone know anything about this motor. does it actually exist or is it a trick sti got bored one day thing and made a 1 off NA motor.

4. Is the crank from EJ18 same as EJ20?

5. will a EJ20 superlight flywheel fit my EJ18?

6. does anyone have a baffeled oil pan that will fit a ej18, will ej20 oil pan fit ej18?

7. can i put DOHC ej20 heads on my ej18? what about just putting ej20 valves and valvesprings/retainers on the ej18?

8. has any one actualy taken both engines apart and compared the similar parts? if so, what parts are compatible?

9. will an intake manifold from a ej20 fit?

10. any sugesstions on how to build a high power ej18?

11. quad throttle conversion? is it possible with stock electronics?

12. how high compression could i run?

13. could i bore it to 1994cc and would it be the same as a ej20 block?

14. is the EJ18 a closed deck motor?


my Idear(s) was this:

goals would be to have a 1.8L ej18, stock stroke and bore, high compression. preferably stock SOHC. with headwork, valvetrain work, knife edge crank, baffeled oil pan, mab lightened stock pulleys for accessories, mab cams if i can get somone to make some or bastardize another SOHC for some, superlight flywheel, decent clutch, quad throttle bodies? that would put out 8500 rpm redline, and be around 200hp. i dont see why its not possible. honda can do it all day with their 1.6L b16b.

run 4.44 STI-RA gearbox for all motor.

my car is a 93 so its lighter than the new cars, and go all motor. it'll save me the weight of the turbo, the turbo front crossmember, intercooler, plumbing, heavy exhaust manfold, heatshieldsetc. that and i can run a smaller lighter radiator, probbly wont need oil cooler.

the end product would be a light 93 AWD all motor. id be guessing around ~2500 lbs mab? roughly 200ps with a niiice short gear ratio that can rev all day.

i dont need a 320lb-ft sti conversion. i can do it and have no problems burnning all 4 tyres, but it seems that all motor is more pure, waay simpler, no turbo and such to worry about, and quad throttle sound is frekin cool. plus it would be much lighter and compact and i could scare people with the setup. help me out and post your thoughts.

thanx

h
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Old 01-06-2002, 11:46 AM   #2
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I'm not sure about 2.0 being modified 1.8 (and 2.5 is modified 2.2). However, I think it is - someone correct if I'm wrong.

If it is, it'll answer few questions:

5. ->Yes
6. ->Will fit
7. ->Heads will fit, valves maybe.
9. ->Yes
12. ->Probably


I'm also very interested about the subject also. I'm planning to work with my EJ18 motor, but haven't got much to knowledge to start from.




tony
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Old 01-07-2002, 03:02 AM   #3
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I'm interested if anything comes up as well... I've noticed that the 6000 redline is WAY to low for this engine!
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Old 01-07-2002, 06:13 AM   #4
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Run a EJ-22 as the stroke is still plenty short, and the R/S ratio is just fine. Running a destroked EJ-22 might be an option if you get the hankering for a 11-12K redline. Of course I can't think of how you would get the valvetrain to live too much north of 10K w/o the motor becomming a huge ball of $$$.


If 8,500 redline is your goal, might as well start with a EJ-25. This will let you run much hotter cams than the EJ-18 w/o any drivablity problems. Just keep the overlap down for a street motor. Just use a open deck motor, as its FAR FAR better for this application. I'd use a 97+ DOHC EJ-25 to start with. The ONLY reason in my book to run a DOHC is because it has a better sparkplug positioning. This will help keep detonation at bay. Other than that a SOHC is better for racing in EVERY WAY.


You will want to still run Fuel injection, but running ITBs is a good idea. One thing that might help the drivablity ALOT is running the velocity stacks into a common plenum. This also gives you something to put a REAL air filter on w/o cutting holes in the hood. In anyevent I have yet to see a Subaru intake manifold that I thought was better than pure crap. Most have far to small of a plenum, bad runner shapes, intrusions into the runner, and other misc problems. The latest EJ ones are better, but still not great. The hood hight is the main problem in building a nice setup.

The exaust you will want to be a long tube TRUE EQUAL LENGTH 4-1 header. This will absolutely JACK your ground clearence if done for best HP, so be careful. Also it will need testing for the proper size. You might need to weld the crap out of the heads to get a proper sized port to match. Subaru for some reason has allways run HUGE exaust ports. I think its because they used a common domestic 2" exaust flange (think mid pipe to muffler section) for their older car's header flange. I'd guess off hand 1 3/4 might be a bit large for BEST performance. If you REALLY want to know I'll do a little looking for a little better info.


Now I have to ask, do you have a BIG BIG budget? Or just a little one? Getting power out of a EJ motor is one of the simplest things on the planet, but its far from cheap.
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Old 01-07-2002, 12:44 PM   #5
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keep this thread alive...i've reached critical mass on bolt ons, so this is my next logical step...except i've got 3-400lb less to move.

-adam-
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Old 01-07-2002, 02:01 PM   #6
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i have pondered several options.

#1 from the start has been EJ20K conversion. probbly cost me around $3K or so all said and done. the biggest issue has been the wiring bc i want to use all OEM ecu and stuff, but teh idear of importing a LHD impreza turbo complete wiring harness from taiwan has kinda solved the splicing issue. very doable, so it makes my turbo motor conversion even cheaper than before.

i talked it over with my buddy who builds the Katech C5R race motor, and we figured that an all motor EJ18 is no problem, but the cost is. i would only liek to spend 2K on the ej18 if i was going to do it. it dosnt make sense to spend the same money on less power and less reliabilty, although it would be more pimp. instead of getting bumpy cams, we figured that bigger valves would do somehwat the same thing and would be a hella lot cheaper. does anyone kno of aftermarket high comp pistons and camshafts/valves tha will fit the motor?


what bolt ons have u guys thrown on a EJ18? any sucessful stuff? ive got the KN panel filter for gas milage and a Scoobysport exhaust, but thats my extent.

hook up the info!!!

peace

h
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Old 01-07-2002, 02:02 PM   #7
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Default also

has anyone ever DYNO'ed a 1.8L?
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Old 01-07-2002, 03:32 PM   #8
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So what block would make the best for a high RPM engine? I have a spare EJ22 block sitting around that needs a job.

Later,
Seth E.
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Old 01-07-2002, 03:56 PM   #9
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Best block depends on how high you are planing on going. The EJ-20 might be needed for its slightly thicker cyl walls, while the EJ-22 should be fine for anything this side of 12K (block wise), and the EJ-25 makes a fine motor for street apps, but a EJ-22 crank would be needed for the "big" numbers to make it as safe as posible north of 10K.

I would run a Later open deck block in all cases, with a STi semi-closed deck block for the people going money and RPM crazy.

just remeber that the RODS and ROD BOLTS cause more block holes than weak blocks. Detonation is the usualy cause for the Rods going south, and being a cheap ass is the usual reason for the rod bolts going south.


On large valves. For some reason people LOVE the "ricefactor" of large valves. Large valves will do NOTHING w/o the rest of the engine built to match. Its also very expensive to do. I put in 1mm larger valves all around in my SHO. I also put in the biggest cams you can run on stock valve springs, and w/o clearencing the head (lobes smack the webbing in the head). From what I can tell the Valves did little, the cams not much more. If I was going to do it again I would have just stuck with the lumpy cam and saved the $300 to work over the intake manifold and exaust system. Oh and the Machine work was "free" because the heads were being rebuilt at the time so its not much extra work. The plain fact is unless you REALLY know a motor large valves are something to AVOID. A local engine guru found that a SBC LOOSES power with larger than 2.00 Intake valves. Don't know the exact setup, but the valve is too large and only flows around PART of the valve instead of all, due to the proximity to the Cyl wall.
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Old 01-07-2002, 04:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: also

Quote:
Originally posted by supermoose
has anyone ever DYNO'ed a 1.8L?
don't know about AWD, but the FWD cars put about 82~85hp to the wheels stock.

for comparison, a 2.0L jetta or golf puts 70~75 to the wheels. not sure about a comparable honda.

-adam-
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Old 01-07-2002, 05:55 PM   #11
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Default heads

has anyone here ported a ej18 head?

where could i get lumpy camshafts?

does anyone know stuff about the SYMS all motor drag EJ20's? i know that a company called FLATT does NA wrx's. they have a nice looking header, but will a ej20 header fit a ej18?

h
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Old 01-07-2002, 06:45 PM   #12
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But aren't the heads on the 1.8L a single exhaust port design? I would ditch the heads, and get some off a EJ20, or possibly a DOHC 2.5. Didn't some EJ22's come with a DOHC in 97? Or maybe they had the dual exhaust ports?

OT:
To make a EJ22E (non-turbo) engine into a good track motor, what would you do that would be expensive? I would guess that I would bump the compression ratio to 10.5:1, and then get some better flowing heads. I know that my car is sufficating from like 5k on. I would want atleast a 7k redline. What about the stock rods?

Later,
Seth E.
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Old 01-08-2002, 01:58 AM   #13
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It's good to know some people haven't given up on the 1.8L engine. The Honda guys have fun with their tiny engines, so why can't we enjoy ours too?
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Old 01-08-2002, 02:34 AM   #14
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DoinkMobb, the point is that there ***IS*** no point in playing with a EJ-18 unless you are bound to 1.8L by a car classification rule.

The EJ-25 bolts into the same place, hits the scales at the same wieght, and bolts to the same tranny. Why penilize yourself a whole .7L displacement when you don't have to? TRUST ME if the Honda guys could get 2.5L w/o adding 100+ lbs of wieght, lots of $$, and a horrible R/S coupled with a long stroke, don't you think they WOULD.
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Old 01-08-2002, 04:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by XT6Wagon
hits the scales at the same wieght, and bolts to the same tranny.
I did not know that...

Although, I thought our tranny is a little (lot) weaker than the RS tranny...
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Old 01-09-2002, 12:13 AM   #16
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Default 2.5 durability

I suppose the idea here is to preserve the stock block to save the cost and hassle of having to acquire a new motor to play with. Besides, the 25 is a streched design not built for the same thermal tolerances of the smaller scooby motors. Granted they're generally *reliable* up to about 220 bhp reworked and under light boost, I'd feel safer otherwise. Oversquare motors seem to make especially good candidates for big power NA motors at high rpm (e.g. F1).

Question: Is it always advisable/necessary to deck the block after extensive work so the gaskets seal tighter? or only when you bore/stroke the motor?

Also, are headers available for the 1.8 or do these also need to be custom fabricated?


Thanks,

Ben
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Old 01-09-2002, 11:15 AM   #17
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Default 2.5L rods

looking at the 2.5L motor, dont the rods play out a problem. there s gota be some reason taht all subaru motors 1.8/2.0/2.2/22b all have the 75mm length. the stock 1.8L rods are good enough to rev up to 8K in the sti-RA motors, so why not just keep them. aftermarket rods are cool, but $500 could be spent on soem NASTY headwork and intake polishing.

has anyone here built a NASTY all motor EJ25?

h
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Old 01-09-2002, 12:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kostamojen


I did not know that...

Although, I thought our tranny is a little (lot) weaker than the RS tranny...
does anyone know this to be a fact...? if so, it might ruin my 2.5 swap plan...
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Old 01-09-2002, 12:20 PM   #19
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The "myth" is that the EJ-25 is a weak and crappy motor because in order to get the extra displacement Subaru had to shorten the Rods at the same time as increasing the stroke. Small news flash though. A B18C (Teg Type-R) has nearly identical R/S ratio as the EJ-25, and if I recall correctly STILL has a longer stroke. Which means the stresses on a B18C are HIGHER than the EJ-25.
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Old 01-09-2002, 12:57 PM   #20
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What heads would make for the best high RPM use? I would think that DOHC would be best, but what about the valve train? How high can a SOHC 2.5L rev on the stock valve springs? I think some people may be confusing the phase 1, and 2 2.5L. Above somebody posted that the 2.5L is a stretched design......SPD Tuning? I think that they are refering to the Phase 1 2.5L, which was based on a EJ22 if I am not mistaken.

Later,
Seth E.
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Old 01-10-2002, 02:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by RaceCarRiot
does anyone know this to be a fact...? if so, it might ruin my 2.5 swap plan...
The gear ratios are different at least.
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Old 01-10-2002, 03:13 AM   #22
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Man if I had a $1 for everytime someone whipped out SPD Tuning's BS as the truth I wouldn't be here talking to you I'd be out driving a 500HP brat. Yes the EJ-25 is "streatched" but like I said BEFORE its still experiences less stress than the b18C which more than a few people take to 9K after some valve springs and retainers.

The DOHC is the head of choice, mostly due to the spark plug position. The SOHC should have a ligher valve train mass, and lower friction, but the lower threshold for detonation will eat a good portion of the benifits, if not all of them. More to the point the DOHC heads are "developed" so you don't have to pay through the nose for custom parts. Just AVOID the 96 EJ-25 REGARDLESS OF THE COST. In my book its just behind the EJ-18 on subaru's worst motor's list. why didn't they just put in a EJ-22 with some smaller cams instead of the EJ-18??? Would have been cheaper. Same thing with the 96 EJ-25. Why make a motor that isn't all that much better than the EJ-22 while requiring premium gas? The 97 EJ-25 has more HP, runs on cheap gas, and in every way its different its a better motor than the 96.
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Old 11-18-2002, 12:39 AM   #23
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Quote:
does anyone know this to be a fact...? if so, it might ruin my 2.5 swap plan...
the 1.8L tranny will not bolt up to anything higher than a 1.8.
2.0-2.5 trannies will bolt to any motor in that range. some combos will use more or less bolts to connect, but all will work.
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Old 11-18-2002, 02:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by sick1.8t

the 1.8L tranny will not bolt up to anything higher than a 1.8.
2.0-2.5 trannies will bolt to any motor in that range. some combos will use more or less bolts to connect, but all will work.
Folks have run the EJ20t's off of the 1.8 tranny. I think you might have to change the clutch, but the tranny's do bolt up right.
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Old 11-18-2002, 07:21 PM   #25
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As far as I know all EJ motors will bolt up to all transmitions that came in a car with an EJ series engine. some are 4 bolt and some are eight I beleive, but of you dont use 4 of those you have 4 that still fit. Ive had a 2.5 apart and an STI EJ20 apart but havnt cracked open my EJ18 yet, might in a few months though. maybe ill post comparisons to the EJ20 if i get the time. Unfortunatly I dont ahve much time anymore....
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