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Old 09-21-2003, 03:54 PM   #1
Equilibrium Tuning
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Default Cure for wastegate flutter?

I've heard many people complain about wastegate flutter and everyone seems to think its normal. First of all I want to confirm that its flutter. I usually hear it at low boost at 3-4k RPM getting louder toward 4k. Its a regular fluttering sound that usually goes away at WOT. I'm going to try some 100 octane to make sure its not detonation.

Well the sound is getting to me a bit and I was contemplating on how to cure it. So the cause of this as I see it is just the wastegate flapping open/closed from pressure variances in the turbine housing. So... the only solution seems to be a stiffer wastegate spring or an equal length header. Has anyone ever tried cleaning their wastegate to see if it helps it seal up a bit better?

Any other thoughts?

Thanks
-- Ed


Edit - Here is the solution:

Allright guys, looking over the problem, I noticed our adjustable WG actuator. Well, I took off the heatshield, popped off the C clip, and tightened (shortened) the arm 4 turns. Popped it back on and went for a drive and there is now significantly less flutter Before the adjustment I heard flutter at most RPM at very low boost. Now I can only hear a quieter hint of it around 4kRPM under 8-10psi. It deffinately sound healthier and spools a bit quicker as well.

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Last edited by Equilibrium Tuning; 10-23-2009 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:12 PM   #2
Dans-REX
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Can't add much here, but can say that the Perrin design DP doesn't cure the sound.
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:42 PM   #3
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Let me add that I have a TurboXS stealthback installed.

-- Ed
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Old 09-21-2003, 08:49 PM   #4
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If its only wastegate flutter, the cure is to remove the internal wastegate and weld on an External Wastegate to your uppipe...

Zee
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Old 09-22-2003, 10:11 AM   #5
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Default Re: Cure for wastegate flutter?

Quote:
Originally posted by Vaus
So... the only solution seems to be a stiffer wastegate spring or an equal length header.
Why not start much lower tech and less expensive: Reduce the noise through the firewall and floorboard. You may be surprised.

BTW, I have the same exhaust and I don't hear anything but the turbo spool and OEM BOV.

EDIT: FWIW (below) I have the heatshield on, same as BeeGee.

Last edited by jblaine; 09-22-2003 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 09-22-2003, 01:35 PM   #6
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I had the same problem until I hacked and replaced the heatshield. Have you done that?
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Old 09-22-2003, 04:53 PM   #7
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Yep.. heatshield is in place. I could hear this sound slightly with the stock exhaust but now its much more pronounced. Maybe switching out the WG actuator? or adjusting it?

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 09-22-2003, 05:17 PM   #8
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I just put on a turboxs downpipe and I love the gains, but hate the noise. Im going to heat wrap it with Thermo-Tec wrap and spray it down with silicone. I've heard different opinions on whether it helps or not. Some people say a little bit, and others say a lot.

Rob
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Old 09-22-2003, 07:39 PM   #9
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I thought when I opened this post, people were going to be talking about ways to fix wastegate flutter, not put sound deadening material over it to hide it.

Heavier wastegate spring - or adding a spring to the arm itself. I'm TRYING to source a heavier wastegate for my VF22, so far its been nearly impossible (or over $200). Talk about a niche waiting to be filled!
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Old 09-22-2003, 09:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarthChicken
I thought when I opened this post, people were going to be talking about ways to fix wastegate flutter, not put sound deadening material over it to hide it.
And I thought when I opened this post it wasn't going to be a sarcastic ass getting down on people throwing out ideas to cope with a nuisance noise.

Sorry to have so disgusted you, oh holy one.
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Old 09-23-2003, 01:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: Cure for wastegate flutter?

Quote:
Originally posted by Vaus
I've heard many people complain about wastegate flutter and everyone seems to think its normal. First of all I want to confirm that its flutter. I usually hear it at low boost at 3-4k RPM getting louder toward 4k. Its a regular fluttering sound that usually goes away at WOT. I'm going to try some 100 octane to make sure its not detonation.

Well the sound is getting to me a bit and I was contemplating on how to cure it. So the cause of this as I see it is just the wastegate flapping open/closed from pressure variances in the turbine housing. So... the only solution seems to be a stiffer wastegate spring or an equal length header. Has anyone ever tried cleaning their wastegate to see if it helps it seal up a bit better?

Any other thoughts?

Thanks
-- Ed
Upgrade to an IHI turbo. The VF23 and VF22 didn't make that sound at all on my car. The 13g ticks like an SOB when the turbo spools (low rpm). It sounds VERY much like detonation (but louder), but the placement is wrong (rpm and throttle position;~3Krpms at low throttle vs the normal 6Krpms at WOT).
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Old 09-23-2003, 01:57 PM   #12
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My VF22 does it as well. I think part of it might be a boost control issue though, as my AVC-R seems like its trying to keep the boost from overshooting so it is bleeding to the wastegate in pulses - and that sounds a lot like wastegate flutter. Same thing though, between 3500RPM and 4000RPM.

I wasn't trying to be the "oh holy one" on this btw.... I'm just a little disturbed that to fix something people are talking about adding sound deadening material to fix it. Thats not fixing it, its hiding it. Wastegate flutter causes a loss in power, if it can be truly "fixed" thats a good thing.
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Old 09-24-2003, 03:57 AM   #13
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Allright guys, looking over the problem, I noticed our adjustable WG actuator. Well, I took off the heatshield, popped off the C clip, and tightened (shortened) the arm 4 turns. Popped it back on and went for a drive and there is now significantly less flutter Before the adjustment I heard flutter at most RPM at very low boost. Now I can only hear a quieter hint of it around 4kRPM under 8-10psi. It deffinately sound healthier and spools a bit quicker as well.

Here's the theory behind it if anyone's interested:
When we all put on turbobacks with much less restriction than the stock exhaust, we also removed that backpressure helping the WG to stay closed under lowe boost. By shortening the actuator arm, you're putting a pre-load on the spring and using the preload to hold the WG shut longer. Be careful not to overtighten as this may cause spiking (from personal experience ).

Try it out and let me know if it works.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 09-24-2003, 09:59 AM   #14
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Are vf series wastegates adjustable by turning the arm?
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Old 09-24-2003, 10:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaus
Allright guys, looking over the problem, I noticed our adjustable WG actuator. Well, I took off the heatshield, popped off the C clip, and tightened (shortened) the arm 4 turns. Popped it back on and went for a drive and there is now significantly less flutter Before the adjustment I heard flutter at most RPM at very low boost. Now I can only hear a quieter hint of it around 4kRPM under 8-10psi. It deffinately sound healthier and spools a bit quicker as well.

Here's the theory behind it if anyone's interested:
When we all put on turbobacks with much less restriction than the stock exhaust, we also removed that backpressure helping the WG to stay closed under lowe boost. By shortening the actuator arm, you're putting a pre-load on the spring and using the preload to hold the WG shut longer. Be careful not to overtighten as this may cause spiking (from personal experience ).

Try it out and let me know if it works.

Thanks
-- Ed
Interesting! But for some reason I am too much of a chicken to mess with the actuator arm.
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Old 09-24-2003, 11:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarthChicken
My VF22 does it as well. I think part of it might be a boost control issue though, as my AVC-R ...
Funny, I have an AVC-R too and the 23 and 22 where silent (compared to stock turbo). No clicking, just spool.

FWIW, the AVC-R (and any ebc) solenoids make a distinct clicking noise as well. This can be louder than the WG noise depending on BC. I wrapped the ebc solenoid in found and put in where my fbc was (under the plastic) which made the solenoid silent. I think you may be hearing the solenoid.


Quote:
Originally posted by shields102
Are vf series wastegates adjustable by turning the arm?
No, they are not adjustible.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vaus
It deffinately sound healthier and spools a bit quicker as well.
You also get bigger boost spiking because the wg can't bleed as fast. It's a trade off.
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Old 09-24-2003, 07:56 PM   #17
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Overtightening the arm will cause spiking but tightening just a bit will not. In my case it reduced my WG flutter considerably after 3 turns.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 09-24-2003, 08:05 PM   #18
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Oh I forgot to add. Don't do what I did. I cable tied my O2 wire up near the top factory tie. But what I didn't think about was the FBC line. The cable tie crimped the FBC line just enough to cause some weird stuff. I have since re-cable tied my O2 wire resolving the problem. I do remember hearing the flutter more with the line crimped. I also wasn't boosting as high.
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Old 09-24-2003, 09:53 PM   #19
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I have the stock turbo and have WG flutter with my catless exhaust. But,since Ive installed my Gruppe S manifold the flutter is gone. Would the aftermarket manifold eliminate the WG flutter?
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Old 09-24-2003, 10:36 PM   #20
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Vaus, PM'd you on this subject.
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Old 09-26-2003, 11:57 AM   #21
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Vaus,

mind posting pics of exactly what to turn? I'm really interested in learning more about my car, but I'd like not blowing anything up in the process. Anything is better than what I have now. Its loud as hell and annoying all the way from -.5 to .5. Although I think I have a small leak.

Also, about the sound deadining. I was only trying to be helpful. I really dont think that the wastegate fluttering causes that much powerloss, and so I was simply trying to solve the noise problem.

Rob
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Old 09-26-2003, 12:24 PM   #22
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changing wg actuator arm length changes the preload on the wg spring, right?

if that's so, i would expect an increase in wg boost pressure (ie compressor nipple direct to wg actuator) as read at the manifold.

what are your boost pressures at say 50% throttle in 3rd or 4th gear? at this point the ECU should not be passing any BCS pulses, so it should yield wg boost.

curious,
ken
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Old 09-26-2003, 01:54 PM   #23
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I would just say learn to live with it, bring it back to stock.. or put more money into it...

I choose to live it with it.
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:04 PM   #24
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I wonder if a turboback that creates more backpressure (i.e. scoopysport) would reduce the wastegate fluttering??

Anyone out there have the SS installed w/ flutter?
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigbear522
I would just say learn to live with it, bring it back to stock.. or put more money into it...

I choose to live it with it.
Why live with it if its easy to fix?

-- Ed
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