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Old 04-24-2006, 07:42 AM   #76
bfodle
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I don't know if anyone remembers, but SCC had a turbo matching issue a couple of years ago, and gave a lot of formulas to use in Excel and as long as you could get the compressor map for the turbo you wanted (not as easy as it sounds) you could plot the points on the map and it would help determine what turbo would be good for you. I have these formulas in an Excel Spreadsheet. I don't know how to post it, but if someone knows how (Unabomber), I'd be happy to share. I haven't looked at it in over a year, but you have to start somewhere.
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Old 04-24-2006, 08:08 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djviper
X mate how did you come up with a VE of only 85%? i tried the nath for hours and couldnt get a decent figure

I'm just being super-pessimistic...

The way I understand it, VE peaks close to the torque peak, and gradually ramps down as rpms rise.

Try using something higher, maybe 90% VE @ 4000 ish rpms.

I don't know how to calculate VE, but I bet that the stock ej205 heads probably don't flow quite like a hand-ported b18c5 ( or substitute your favorite high flowing head here), and that's why I'm low-balling it.

Those overlays definately puts things into perspective.

Just keep pluggin' away...

later, x
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:25 AM   #78
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The only real calculation that needs to be done is to determine how much air you engine is actually flowing. This depends on a number of things including the RPM, absolute temperature (Rankin, equal to 460 + Fahrenheit temp), absolute manifold pressure (psi, equal to boost pressure plus atmospheric pressure), and lastly the engine volumetric flow or EVF in cfm.

First to calculate EVF use the following equation:


eingine CID RPM
EVF= ( _________) * ( _____)
1728 2

(for some reason the forum is re aranging the formulars for me! rpm and 2 in the brackets on the right)

Next we’ll use EVF to calculate the amount of air in lb/min the engine is flowing under boost and at temperature using this equation:



P*EVF*29
N= _________

10.73*T


Where N is the airflow in lb/min, P is the absolute pressure in psi, and T is the absolute ambient temperature in Rankin.

Finally, multiply N by the volumetric efficiency of your engine (VE). This compensates for the fact that upon every cycle of the engine, not all of the old air/fuel mix in the cylinders is forced out the exhaust. Thus there is a difference between the actual airflow through and engine and the predicted airflow.

thats the stuff i got about working out the VE, he does go on to say that 85% is a conservative guess for a Forced induction engine but does state that most will hit over 100%
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Old 04-24-2006, 11:16 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
Something alot of us DIY tuners have known for years.

TMS
you mean like these threads?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=733253
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667306

a blast from the past, logged 11/01/04 (my car):
Code:
     	     	   	   	Load	Knock	    	      	      	 Mod	  Mod 	     	 Mod	    
  RPM	 MAP 	MAF	TPS	Site	Count	 AFR	 Ign#1	 Inj#1	 Ign	  Fuel	Boost	 MAF	  WB
     	 psia	 V 	 % 	    	     	    	 deg  	 duty 	 deg	   %  	(CL) 	   V	  O2
2123	-6.1	2.6	65	10	0	  W/B 	30.7	13.4	34	1	13	2.5	 >25:1
2252	-2.4	2.7	101	20	0	  W/B 	30.4	14.8	31	0.7	100	2.6	15.24
2335	1.4	2.8	101	20	0	  W/B 	28.6	17.6	29.5	0.7	100	2.6	14.25
2496	3.7	2.9	100	30	0	  W/B 	25.7	20.3	28	0.9	100	2.8	14.58
2660	5.1	3	101	40	0	  W/B 	20.8	23.9	26.4	0.9	100	2.9	14.3
2829	7	3.2	100	50	0	  W/B 	18.1	31.5	24.2	0.9	100	3.1	14.15
3003	9.6	3.5	101	70	0	  W/B 	14.6	46.5	20	2.6	100	3.5	13.87
3229	13.1	3.7	101	90	0	  W/B 	12.1	56.1	17	5.1	100	3.5	13.23
3479	16.5	3.8	100	100	0	  W/B 	11.1	61.6	16	5.1	100	3.8	12.52
3695	19.2	3.8	100	100	0	  W/B 	11.8	68	16	5	100	3.8	12
3958	20.4	3.9	100	100	0	  W/B 	14.5	72.3	16	5	100	3.9	11.61
4203	20.8	4	100	100	0	  W/B 	13.8	76.1	16	4.4	100	3.9	11.34
4492	20.6	4	100	100	0	  W/B 	13.7	80.6	16.6	4.1	100	4	11.43
4755	20.4	4.1	100	100	0	  W/B 	14.7	86.5	17.7	3	100	4	11.61
4938	20	4.2	100	100	0	  W/B 	16.8	94	18.7	2	100	4	11.68
5175	19.8	4.2	100	100	0	  W/B 	17.1	91.3	19.7	1.4	100	4	11.76
5473	19.8	4.2	101	100	0	  W/B 	18.6	92.6	20	1.2	100	4	11.87
5537	18.8	4.2	100	100	0	  W/B 	20	92.2	20.4	1	100	4.1	11.96
5899	18.4	4.3	100	80	0	  W/B 	21.1	87.2	23.2	0.5	100	4	11.93
6016	17.8	4.3	100	90	0	  W/B 	22.4	93.7	24.5	0.4	100	4	11.92
6172	16.7	4.3	100	90	0	  W/B 	23.4	94.1	24.6	0.2	100	4	11.92
6410	15.7	4.3	100	80	0	  W/B 	26.3	93	25.8	-0.4	100	4	11.81
6497	15.5	4.3	100	70	0	  W/B 	26.4	93.3	26.8	-0.3	100	4	11.76
6988	15.5	4.3	100	80	0	  W/B 	28	89.5	29	-0.5	100	4	11.81
6901	15.7	4.3	101	90	0	  W/B 	27.8	92	28.8	-0.4	100	4	12.05
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Old 04-24-2006, 11:21 AM   #80
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I'll see if I can get my old tuning laptop to boot up.
I know I have some logs from late 2002 that are about the same as the one you just posted.

TMS
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Old 04-24-2006, 04:52 PM   #81
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After I installed your ported exhaust housing I got a UTEC and the map you started me out with and I dialed that in for 19 psi down to 12. I think that was in spring '03.
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Old 04-24-2006, 04:53 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djviper
i dont suppose you could PM me the HF22 map on its own could you??
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/244/vf227ju.jpg
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:28 PM   #83
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subscribes...

This is interesting, it only took us 4 years to get the compressor information! So, I just ordered a HUGE TMIC, next I want a retune maxxed at 20+psi. We will see what the stocker turbo can really do!

EDIT: Unibomber u rock!
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Old 04-24-2006, 11:29 PM   #84
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bump for a *must read*
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Old 04-25-2006, 03:34 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
you mean like these threads?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=733253
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667306

a blast from the past, logged 11/01/04 (my car):
Code:
     	     	   	   	Load	Knock	    	      	      	 Mod	  Mod 	     	 Mod	    
  RPM	 MAP 	MAF	TPS	Site	Count	 AFR	 Ign#1	 Inj#1	 Ign	  Fuel	Boost	 MAF	  WB
     	 psia	 V 	 % 	    	     	    	 deg  	 duty 	 deg	   %  	(CL) 	   V	  O2
2123	-6.1	2.6	65	10	0	  W/B 	30.7	13.4	34	1	13	2.5	 >25:1
2252	-2.4	2.7	101	20	0	  W/B 	30.4	14.8	31	0.7	100	2.6	15.24
2335	1.4	2.8	101	20	0	  W/B 	28.6	17.6	29.5	0.7	100	2.6	14.25
2496	3.7	2.9	100	30	0	  W/B 	25.7	20.3	28	0.9	100	2.8	14.58
2660	5.1	3	101	40	0	  W/B 	20.8	23.9	26.4	0.9	100	2.9	14.3
2829	7	3.2	100	50	0	  W/B 	18.1	31.5	24.2	0.9	100	3.1	14.15
3003	9.6	3.5	101	70	0	  W/B 	14.6	46.5	20	2.6	100	3.5	13.87
3229	13.1	3.7	101	90	0	  W/B 	12.1	56.1	17	5.1	100	3.5	13.23
3479	16.5	3.8	100	100	0	  W/B 	11.1	61.6	16	5.1	100	3.8	12.52
3695	19.2	3.8	100	100	0	  W/B 	11.8	68	16	5	100	3.8	12
3958	20.4	3.9	100	100	0	  W/B 	14.5	72.3	16	5	100	3.9	11.61
4203	20.8	4	100	100	0	  W/B 	13.8	76.1	16	4.4	100	3.9	11.34
4492	20.6	4	100	100	0	  W/B 	13.7	80.6	16.6	4.1	100	4	11.43
4755	20.4	4.1	100	100	0	  W/B 	14.7	86.5	17.7	3	100	4	11.61
4938	20	4.2	100	100	0	  W/B 	16.8	94	18.7	2	100	4	11.68
5175	19.8	4.2	100	100	0	  W/B 	17.1	91.3	19.7	1.4	100	4	11.76
5473	19.8	4.2	101	100	0	  W/B 	18.6	92.6	20	1.2	100	4	11.87
5537	18.8	4.2	100	100	0	  W/B 	20	92.2	20.4	1	100	4.1	11.96
5899	18.4	4.3	100	80	0	  W/B 	21.1	87.2	23.2	0.5	100	4	11.93
6016	17.8	4.3	100	90	0	  W/B 	22.4	93.7	24.5	0.4	100	4	11.92
6172	16.7	4.3	100	90	0	  W/B 	23.4	94.1	24.6	0.2	100	4	11.92
6410	15.7	4.3	100	80	0	  W/B 	26.3	93	25.8	-0.4	100	4	11.81
6497	15.5	4.3	100	70	0	  W/B 	26.4	93.3	26.8	-0.3	100	4	11.76
6988	15.5	4.3	100	80	0	  W/B 	28	89.5	29	-0.5	100	4	11.81
6901	15.7	4.3	101	90	0	  W/B 	27.8	92	28.8	-0.4	100	4	12.05
I had forgot I even posted that. I guess you were right in the end. Is the turbo holding up ok? I calculated that your shaft speeds are around 150k from 3.5k-5k rpm. At ~3.5k, you are around ~65-70% efficient which is pretty good.
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:07 PM   #86
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bump
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:38 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wall of tvs
Let me be the first to vote for a STICKY!!

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Old 04-26-2006, 05:32 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWrecKs
so, essentially, this could eliminate the converson to VF34/39 minus the lag but still produce 'like' power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strng1dah
Posting a compressor map doesn't change the turbo. vf34/39 still make more power. And I used to crank my stocker up to 19psi with an MBC when I went to the track...
Agreed. This map doesn't change the fact that the turbo is TINY. I mean REAL tiny and the VF's make a good 50-80whp when both maxed out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
I'm pushing 'pert near 250 WHP at around 16 PSI now. Wonder what I'll be putting down if I were to to crank it up to 20-21PSI?
Not much more at all, especially since the boost will be the same past 5800rpms or so. 250whp seems to be the brick wall.
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Old 04-26-2006, 11:48 PM   #89
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Maybe not much more peak but you'd have a better curve.
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:42 AM   #90
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awesome info. **subscribe**
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Old 04-27-2006, 08:59 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeC
Agreed. This map doesn't change the fact that the turbo is TINY. I mean REAL tiny and the VF's make a good 50-80whp when both maxed out.


Not much more at all, especially since the boost will be the same past 5800rpms or so. 250whp seems to be the brick wall.
i don't think the turbo is tiny as much as the hotside is tiny.

i think the brick wall is more because of egbp than anything else.

reference clark's testimony regarding a td04, fmic, 2.5l frankenblock, and ewg. the "tiny" turbo was pumping as much air as a larger vf.
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:14 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000

i think the brick wall is more because of egbp than anything else.
X2
I think an EWG would be a great help in reducing EGBP and would help push past the 250whp range.

TMS
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:15 AM   #93
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can the hotsides be swapped out with something bigger?
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:24 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
can the hotsides be swapped out with something bigger?
The next bigger housing from MHI is the 7cm one. It will not swap over without ALOT of work.

TMS
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:27 AM   #95
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Maybe porting the exhaust is the best thing for these turbos?
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:32 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
Maybe porting the exhaust is the best thing for these turbos?
It helps. But not enough. Mostly in the initial spool up area.

TMS
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:21 AM   #97
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Way back in the day I ran 20psi(ish) in the midrange. It always ran great and felt good, except towards redline. That's why I went with a larger turbo. I didn't like the dead feeling up top. An EWG may have helped but I didn't want that much of a project car.

Great find Elwood. I'll see ya in a couple weeks.
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Old 04-27-2006, 02:24 PM   #98
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Good reading in here. -Subscribing-
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:29 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
Maybe porting the exhaust is the best thing for these turbos?
With VF39's going for $200-250, the best thing to do to a WRX turbo is throw it away.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:31 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeC
With VF39's going for $200-250, the best thing to do to a WRX turbo is throw it away.
Unless you want fast spool and low end over slower spool and top end.
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