Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday December 14, 2019
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-06-2015, 09:13 AM   #3376
KoalaSlim
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 94002
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kirkwood
Default

I would also prefer to have a mechanical AWD system in my car. I think the Haldex system in the RS looks cool on paper, but there's additional parts and sensors to wear out. Simplicity...

Subaru keeps the AWD and box in the STI and upgrades the motor to DI and makes a hatch, they get my business over this blue oval upstart. Otherwise, I'll just have to kick my feet up for a few years and watch the hot hatch wars unfold! Then I can make an informed decision on the merits of all these systems and which car has better potential.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
KoalaSlim is offline  
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 06-06-2015, 10:21 AM   #3377
boney7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114696
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Too Ill Uh, Utah
Vehicle:
02 WRX
02 White Wrx/itch fixed

Default

I think a lot of people like the idea of 4wd because that is what a "rally car" uses. Yet no production car uses what they use. Subaru as old as it may be I guess comes close,no? It gives me piece of mind for what my intentions are even though those days are few and far between. People hate the idea of an inferior system for what companies market it as.
boney7 is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 10:54 AM   #3378
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2018 Grand Cherokee
Velvet Red Pearl

Default

removed by request

Last edited by Scooby921; 02-01-2016 at 01:48 PM.
Scooby921 is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 11:15 AM   #3379
xionc
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 304492
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Western NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
For what it's worth to those interested in the RS Ford is gearing durability cycles toward track use and not just daily driving to the grocery store like they would with a Taurus.
Thanks for all the info Scooby. If you can answer, I might have missed it but what other surface/road conditions (wet road/track) have you guys tested/calibrated the system on? Since this is being focused towards track use, I imagine the bulk of testing would be in the dry but just curious about other conditions.
xionc is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 12:28 PM   #3380
boney7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114696
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Too Ill Uh, Utah
Vehicle:
02 WRX
02 White Wrx/itch fixed

Default

Man I wish we had an insider that worked on Subarus when news and rumors start flying. This has got to be the most enjoyable thread ever created.
boney7 is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 01:23 PM   #3381
Hondaslayer
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
2014 Electric Datsun
2005 Adventure van

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boney7 View Post
Man I wish we had an insider that worked on Subarus when news and rumors start flying. This has got to be the most enjoyable thread ever created.
We do. Being that they work for FHI they tend to not post things that can get them fired on a Subaru board.

I bet scooby is not posting this on FocusSt.whatever, right?
Hondaslayer is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 02:02 PM   #3382
Pre
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 139693
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

Scooby thanks for the contuined contributions. The folks that are planning on buying this RS thank you. RandR keeps coming into this thread and trying to take a **** and it's nice to read his feces getting flung back at him because most of it is I'll-informed nonsense as you eloquently pointed out.

He's just upset something better than anything Subaru makes is coming and it's upsetting his entire world.
Pre is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 02:55 PM   #3383
Hondaslayer
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
2014 Electric Datsun
2005 Adventure van

Default

I still have not gotten an answer on CO2 emissions, approximate mileage and how many heel airbags it has
Hondaslayer is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 03:01 PM   #3384
AllAWD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17079
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Alexandria, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
I think the WRX is open in the middle. I don't know of anyone using a locked center. That sort of defeats the purpose of having a differential if it's locked up all the time.


Haldex is not a type of coupling it's a company which is now owned by Borg Warner. The RS system is not made by Haldex. It is made by GKN.

Sometimes I hate working for the largest company no one has ever heard of.

Thanks for the info. The WRX is a simple viscous coupling center diff. As I understand there are limits to how much power that can handle and how much slip time before it overheats. It should be good to get you unstuck if you are conservative about it. They do break fairly easily despite being dumb since they rely on having a driver that's less dumb.

I'm sure you can explain better than me.
AllAWD is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 03:39 PM   #3385
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Yeah, well, you know
Vehicle:
that 's, like, your
alternate facts, man.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
Would it be better if I called them smart and stupid AWD systems? One has a brain while the other doesn't.

If you cut the wires running to the AWD system in the RS or the Golf R or anything with an active rear drive module you'd see AWD Malfunction messages on the cluster and you'd have a FWD car. In the STi not powering the DCCD results in an open center coupling as you aren't activating / energizing the electro-magnetic coupling which helps to lock and force torque to the rear. Yes you still have AWD, but that's because it's a "stupid" system and it's just always there rolling along being mindless and doing what it does. The DCCD only controls how much you lock up the center vs. being open.
Please understand that I'm not just trying to give you a hard time, nor am I say anything negative about the RS's AWD.

I'm just trying to say that we need more (not different) descriptors for these AWD systems. So, no.. calling one smart and one dumb wouldn't cut it.. particularly since DCCD is hardly dumb considering it uses yaw, throttle position and steering angle sensors to determine lockup. It's an active system.

I'm going to try to explain what I'm talking about using some of the existing consumer-level terms, although they may be rapidly growing obsolete.

3 of the 4 Subaru systems (Continuous AWD, VTD & DCCD) and (AFAIK) Audi's Quattro systems are full-time AWD. No matter what condition the center locking device is in (locked or unlocked) you have a connection between the front and rear axles. If you removed the driveshaft the car would go nowhere.

Most of the AWD systems on the market now are part-time AWD systems (this is where the obsolescence of old terms creeps in). If you removed the driveshaft from the driveline you'd have a 2WD vehicle again.

Next we have the active AWD vs passive AWD which describes computer control or mechanical. Both can have preloads, but only an active system can be truely proactive.

Then we have the vectoring AWD or simple AWD, a sub-property, this one describing whether the active system can direct power laterally. I am not counting front and rear LSDs as torque vectoring since it is not an active control.


So:

Part-Time Passive: mostly a viscous coupling shunting power to the other axle for very short periods of time.
  • lots of AWD cars & trucks in the 80s and 90s.

Full-Time Passive: a center diff with some sort of lockup device
  • Subaru Continuous AWD - a viscous LSD
  • Most Audi Quattros - a torsen mechanical LSD
  • BMW's old system in the 80s (325iX & 525iX) that had a planetary center diff with a viscous LSD
  • Jeep Quadra-Trac & Quadra-Trac II
  • Mazda 323GTX also had a plentary center diff with viscous LSD

Full-Time Simple Active: a center diff with a computer controlled electronic or hydraulically actuated locking device
  • Subaru's VTD/DCCD
  • Audi Quattro III with automatic trans
  • Mitsubishi EVOs I-IX
  • Jeep Quadra-Drive II

Full-Time Vectoring Active: an active center diff combined with a torque vectoring method on at least one axle.
  • Mitsubishi EVO X

Part-Time Simple Active: usually an electronically controlled wet clutchpack in the transmission that shunts power to the other axle at will.
  • Honda Real-Time AWD
  • Subaru Active AWD
  • Jeep Quadra-Drive
  • BMW XDrive
  • Nissan GTR
  • VAG Lamborghinis
  • VW 'Haldex'
  • etc. etc. most modern AWD cars & SUVs, really.

Part-Time Vectoring Active: same as above, except with a torque vectoring method on at least one axle.
  • Acura SH-AWD / Honda VTM-4
  • 2016 Ford Focus RS


Wildcard: Full-Time Vectoring Passive
  • Audi Quattro V & VI (torsen center, torque vectoring rear)



Now, with that roughly established, I'm sure that some folks are worried about the Part-Time systems because they generally transfer power through a clutchpack which means heat and wear. Heat and wear are usually things track rats want to avoid at all costs. There are performance cars and supercars that use Part-Time systems, but they only use them to augment what would otherwise be a very powerful RWD platform. Using Part-Time systems to induce oversteer in a FWD platform is rather new and unproven, AFAIK. Am I wrong?
Calamity Jesus is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 03:48 PM   #3386
Hondaslayer
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
2014 Electric Datsun
2005 Adventure van

Default

CJ

I get what you are saying, believe me. For the sake of keeping things easy there are two systems, smart and dumb. Think of it as analog vs digital. Sure, there are analog watches with a billion functions, there are also digital watches that only tell time. You can spend hours arguing the minutiae, but in the end it's analog vs digital.

"Dumb" systems have a permanent engagement that can be augmented to increase or decrease lock to/from certain points.

"Smart" systems can be shut off entirely and turned on at the exact moment they are needed and where they are needed.

Would you prefer "mechanical" and "electronic" instead of smart and dumb?
Hondaslayer is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 04:17 PM   #3387
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Yeah, well, you know
Vehicle:
that 's, like, your
alternate facts, man.

Default

I'd prefer not to dumb things down here.
Calamity Jesus is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 04:23 PM   #3388
mofoSTI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 236252
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle:
08 STi
DGM

Default

Great stuff in here without all the BS. Thanks scoob921
mofoSTI is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 07:17 PM   #3389
Uncle Scotty
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK buy Nates beans
westcoastroasting.com

Default

GAWD...I just love this place sometimes
Uncle Scotty is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 08:26 PM   #3390
2002t-wrex
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 37729
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Georgetown, Ontario, Canada
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
PSM

Default



Stealth Grey
2002t-wrex is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 08:40 PM   #3391
scatsob
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 164986
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: International
Location: everywhere
Vehicle:
2017 undecided
some sort of blue

Default

Not bad...
scatsob is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 08:53 PM   #3392
2002t-wrex
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 37729
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Georgetown, Ontario, Canada
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
PSM

Default



Moar
2002t-wrex is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 09:00 PM   #3393
boney7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114696
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Too Ill Uh, Utah
Vehicle:
02 WRX
02 White Wrx/itch fixed

Default

Perfect
boney7 is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 09:45 PM   #3394
scatsob
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 164986
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: International
Location: everywhere
Vehicle:
2017 undecided
some sort of blue

Default

Man that mustang next to it is beautiful. Hopefully they will let us have the RS in that color at some point.
scatsob is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 10:11 PM   #3395
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: www.testdrivemylife.com
Vehicle:
2020 Legacy / Ascent
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

I am not feeling that paint
It looks like what happens to your water after you rinse out too many colors from your brush
When you were in 2nd grade
SCRAPPYDO is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 10:12 PM   #3396
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2018 Grand Cherokee
Velvet Red Pearl

Default

removed by request

Last edited by Scooby921; 02-01-2016 at 01:48 PM.
Scooby921 is offline  
Old 06-06-2015, 11:18 PM   #3397
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

juanmedina is offline  
Old 06-07-2015, 01:06 AM   #3398
RandR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 292132
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Australia
Vehicle:
2016 981 GTS
2017 991.2 C2S X51PK

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Scooby thanks for the contuined contributions. The folks that are planning on buying this RS thank you. RandR keeps coming into this thread and trying to take a **** and it's nice to read his feces getting flung back at him because most of it is I'll-informed nonsense as you eloquently pointed out.

He's just upset something better than anything Subaru makes is coming and it's upsetting his entire world.
There is no ill informed nonsense and why would I care as I have a STI an EVO and a Cup Car lol. It is you Pre that is the RS fanboi, even tho you have zero experience in regard to RS product.

There is reality - and the facts speak for themselves - res ipsa loquitur. That is why I posted the results from the recent Targa event. Its hard to argue with these results from the real world.

Which are (top 20) = 6 x EVOs, 5 x STI, 3 x Nissan GT-R, 1 Audi R8, 1 Gallardo (Overall winner), 1 McLaren, 1 A45AMG, 1 911 GT3 and 1 RS265. Thirteen of these cars are showroom class vehicles, 17 are AWD, 2 are RWD and 1 is FWD. Of the 17 AWD systems only 1 is FWD dominant (A45 AMG) and this finished behind a 2009 STI. The pattern is very, very clear.

Sure there are some components from GKN within the top vehicles - the Twinster system isn't one of them, also note how many mechanical LSDs are involved.

Moreover, my very valid personal experience with a Twinster equipped vehicle was mixed - fine on tarmac road, poor off-road particularly where the dirt surface became slippery when wet.

Scoobys comments are entirely valid in that the programming/calibration is critical to the outcomes - his comments are appreciated. By the same token many of us are aware how these system (broadly) work.

However, like many here, I prefer a system to be robust and effective where effective means getting you reliably and repeatedly from A to B in the quickest time.

The most effective isn't the smartest, lightest or the most fuel efficient and I would suggest the RS is designed to deliver good performance in the most efficient way. However, from a performance perspective the weight of evidence is heavily against the effectiveness of front dominant AWD systems.

Last edited by RandR; 06-07-2015 at 01:52 AM.
RandR is offline  
Old 06-07-2015, 01:48 AM   #3399
Kevin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1082
Join Date: Mar 2000
Chapter/Region: VIC
Location: Vancouver, BC
Vehicle:
2019 Trailhawk
Grey Like My Hair

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandR View Post
However, like many here, I prefer a system to be robust and effective where effective means getting you reliably and repeatedly from A to B in the quickest time.
Excellent, then lets just wait until the RS comes out and we can see some real world tests as to which car is quickest from point A to B.
Kevin is offline  
Old 06-07-2015, 01:53 AM   #3400
Uncle Scotty
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK buy Nates beans
westcoastroasting.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I am not feeling that paint
It looks like what happens to your water after you rinse out too many colors from your brush
When you were in 2nd grade


man.....I was looking at those pics and was thinking---looks like when ya mix all the watercolors together
Uncle Scotty is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.