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10-11-2016, 11:21 PM | #2126 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 448862
Join Date: Jun 2016
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Vehicle:2011 WRX Dark Gray Metalic |
Quote:
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10-18-2016, 10:56 AM | #2127 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Vehicle:2005 Wrx wagon Red |
Quote:
No problem, hopefully it helps this thread out a little as it's a very common problem (both the rod knock and the re-posting of questions that have been answered in the thread). FWIW, there is an element of where in the stroke where a knock event takes place and what item gets damaged. The reason EJ25 engines have piston failures is largely due to the short rod to stroke ratio where the rod gets into rather extreme angles to either side of the piston between the top and bottom of the stroke. Like riding a bike with the seat too low. It puts stress on everything but the pistons aren't 'weak', just can be over-stressed by the sideways force making the piston take the brunt of the force in a sideways fashion while it's wedged against the side of the cylinder. So if the knock event took place closer to TDC there isn't that sideways force and the shock goes down the rod to the crank where there's not much bearing surface area for the amount of HP these cars make and you can get a rod bearing failure without any noticeable damage to the piston. As for the tune, temperature and humidity change the air density a whole lot just between night and day, not to mention between seasons. A pro-tune is typically done within a few hours in relatively static weather conditions. I know it sounds nitpicky and like a load of over careful/paranoid BS but you could be getting knock events at certain RPM when the temperature went over a certain amount that were not present during the tuning sessions. Just to back that up, my 2nd rod bearing failure happened after I had a 2nd shop re-tune my car after they complained that shop 1 (which they referred me to) where putting out some bad tunes for their customers and I should consider having them tune the engine they just built for me instead. They tuned it at evening/night in springtime. Then I decided to start datalogging etc. on my own that summer and found out that I was getting big knock events in 5th gear between 2500 and 2500 rpm just before that engine spun a bearing AGAIN!?!?!? Having a "professional" tune your car on a dyno is only good for max power/throttle IMO unless you leave the car with them for a week and they street tune it day and night and then let you send datalogs to them throughout the year for touchups. There are just so many tables on these cars these days that adjust fuel, timing etc. etc. with temperature driving style gas quality and so on that simply don't get touched. What works in April on the dyno with the gas you bought that day can be chewing up parts in May at half throttle in the next gear cruising down the highway unless they tested for that and adjusted things for you there as well. I had several REALLY BAD shop experiences before I decided to take matters into my own hands and also to make this thread. It's long and can be a PITA but the amount of info in this thread will save you thousands and thousands of dollars if you decide to rebuild and keep the car. |
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10-18-2016, 11:07 AM | #2128 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Vehicle:2005 Wrx wagon Red |
Quote:
but to answer your post... The break-in metal flake is microscopic. Engine break in is less about removing loose material and more about seating the rings into the pistons which is just stretching and heat cycling vs. rubbing off loose metal. The majority of the metal from the break-in cycle that is actually being shed is aluminum which is softer than the bearing and crank material. Flake from a catastrophically failed bearing is big enough to fill up the .0014'' to .0018'' gap between the other bearings and cause them to grind up and therefore deform the surface. It's visible with the naked eye. In most cases, you can't even see the flake from engine break in, it appears more as swirl in the oil vs little flakes. Lastly, once a rod bearing starts to flake material, it gets worse and worse and worse causing the oil to be continuously contaminated with new flake. Engine break-in is a slow, natural process with much smaller particles of metal being mostly filtered out by the oil filter and not being shed into the engine so fast that the filter can't keep up. So yeah, if you have visible gold flake in your oil and rod knock you're doing more damage to the engine with every revolution. |
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10-18-2016, 11:20 AM | #2129 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Vehicle:2005 Wrx wagon Red |
Quote:
The trick is to find the actual Machine Shop that any tuner shop/Subaru shop etc. sends their stuff to and then just work with them directly. You'll save thousands because a tuner/mechanic will actually just charge you on top of what they pay the Machine shop for work they don't do. Chis Hall at HRT performance in Durham, NC (if you want to look them up) rebuilt my engine for $1,300 bucks plus parts and did my friends which was less damaged for $900 plus parts. Give them a call, they take engines from all over the country and can help point you to good freight companies. I think my friend spent less than $2,000 all told until he decided to buy a brand new 18G-XT turbo from Blouch and upgrade his oil pan and oil pickup tube which could have been reused on top of buying Mahle Pistons and ACL bearings. Still a PITA and enough money to be a problem but considering you'll spend 6-7k at a shop having that same work done and still be without transportation it's a no-brainer. However, there's tons of builders around the nation though which are great, just search "subaru engine rebuild shops" on google and dozens pop up. Many already have engines built that you can just buy and then send your broken one to them for a core charge refund which minimized downtime. You can rent a cherrypicker at a decent price but IMO it's worth it just to buy a used one or a cheap one from Harbor Freight and then sell it when you're done. It's also a good opportunity to install a new clutch and do some other things. Shops will often charge you extra for a new clutch install even though the clutch HAS to be removed and re-installed to rebuild an engine. The savings just compounds if you plan it right. Dig into the thread to find all the posts about rod bearing clearances - most of which are from Maxwell Power/Dominic. Knowing the specs you want and really pushing the machine shop to verify and PROOVE (i.e. take pictures) that they are meeting those specs can give you peace of mind. IMO, push the shop to get all 4 rod bearings between .0018'' and .0020'' as possible and my opinion is that it's worth getting rods slightly resized if need be to get those clearances if getting the custom bearings the right size isn't working out. The factory rebuild manual depending on the year they have/get will call for .0012-.0018'' as the tolerance range or .0014''-.0018'' which are both a bit wide in tolerance ranges (meaning having rod(s) at the low end and others at the high end is too much difference) and too tight at the lower end. Pushing for higher, more consistent clearances and then just always running thicker oil will go a long way preventing failure in the future on these engines if you're doing any aftermarket power mods. It will hurt your fuel economy some but it's worth it. I'm getting too excited thinking about it. Let us know what you decide. Lots of good options if you pull and install your own engine which is just an awesome experience. Hope you figure it out. Last edited by BrandonDrums; 10-18-2016 at 11:38 AM. |
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10-18-2016, 06:19 PM | #2130 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 88252
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Buffalo, NY
Vehicle:2008 STi World Rally Blue |
I've joined the club
So I'm getting off the thruway and I hear this knocking sound and I'm like, man sucks to be that guy (thinking it was the car next to me). I pull away and the noise followed me. Totally frigging gutted. This is my third WRX, bone stock, never raced, or anything with 43,000 on it. First thing dealer says is Subaru is going to want to see maintenance records. I'm an ASE certified mechanic. What do you think my response was? Yeah, so no service records other than keeping track in my manual. FML.
Last edited by CARTfan; 10-18-2016 at 06:26 PM. |
10-18-2016, 08:06 PM | #2131 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 284221
Join Date: May 2011
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: West of Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:2011 WRX GV SSM 2013 MacLeod |
Quote:
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10-18-2016, 08:43 PM | #2132 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: Fort Lupton, CO
Vehicle:2012 STi SWP |
Quote:
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10-19-2016, 07:48 AM | #2133 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 88252
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Buffalo, NY
Vehicle:2008 STi World Rally Blue |
No, this is my 2012 non STi. Dealer just called yesterday and said the #4 rod bearing was smoked. Other three look perfect. Now to take it up with SOA. This should be fun. Will likely take years off my life.
Last edited by CARTfan; 10-19-2016 at 08:43 AM. |
10-23-2016, 08:04 AM | #2134 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 149347
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: Tolland, CT
Vehicle:05 LGT ,09 SpecB Black/silver |
Quote:
Worked for me on the tranny rebuild. Just gave them a copy of the pages from my little pocket note book where I write down everything I've done on the car. If you do your own service, make sure you write down everything you did in a little note book, doesn't have to be anything fancy. I write the date, mileage, what was done. I've added what fluids I use too. |
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10-26-2016, 11:27 AM | #2135 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Vehicle:2005 Wrx wagon Red |
Quote:
That being said, if you can go back and figure out when you changed your oil and with what type and write all that down I imagine your ASE certification would go well in your corner. Others have had hand-written records work for them for getting coverage who aren't even ASE certified. If they kinda 'catch you' saying "well you came in here before and said you didn't have any records" you can say "well I didn't have them listed out in one place but I keep all of the oil change stickers with the mileage and oil type." It would be a PITA but if you paid for everything with a credit card you can painstakingly go back to the store and have them search for the transaction record on their end depending on how long they keep that data and re-print out a receipt. Some stores can match stored receipts to credit card number and date without the paper record. Not sure which stores though....target does for one. My wife returns stuff without the receipt all of the time and they print her out a new receipt showing the items she kept vs. the items she returned. Not sure if any of that would work but it's worth a shot given other people's success. |
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10-31-2016, 12:15 PM | #2136 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 88252
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Buffalo, NY
Vehicle:2008 STi World Rally Blue |
Quote:
Last edited by CARTfan; 10-31-2016 at 04:22 PM. |
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11-01-2016, 08:34 PM | #2137 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 278928
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 sti |
I feel like the 1k it will cost for me to rebuild it my self back to stock is safer spent on paying for a new short block for $1800, what do you all think?
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11-02-2016, 03:29 PM | #2138 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 348177
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: TX
Vehicle:2002 Bugeye Haltech GTX3584RS |
If you dont have the proper tools and experience id go the 1800 oem block route. One noob mistake and youre in the hole 1k.
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11-02-2016, 03:51 PM | #2139 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 278928
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 sti |
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11-02-2016, 09:25 PM | #2140 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 348177
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: TX
Vehicle:2002 Bugeye Haltech GTX3584RS |
These "gems" are a whole different ball game. Ive done it a few times, getting ready to do it again. Check my build thread out, i go over what needs to be done. If you have the tools and time go for it. Otherwise just grab the oem replacement.
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01-03-2017, 08:49 AM | #2141 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 396660
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Central Illinois
Vehicle:2015 WRX STI WRB |
Finally coming back to this thread, spun a bearing back in September and just finally tore into it all this past week.
Oil pan: Oil pan off looking in, quite a bit of bearing material Was #3 that went, wasn't terribly obvious in movement when turning the block over manually. Car barely ran with it knocking and it only made any noise under load, caught early but damage was done. New IAG Closed deck is here to replace this one, heads are getting sent out this week. |
01-03-2017, 09:27 AM | #2142 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 448862
Join Date: Jun 2016
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Vehicle:2011 WRX Dark Gray Metalic |
Mine was #3 as well. Well all of them but 3 was knocking. All of my bearings were pitted and chewed up. Even with all of that I didn't have visible bearing material.
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01-03-2017, 01:04 PM | #2143 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 349470
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kalamazoo, Mi & OC California
Vehicle:2013 WRX Black |
Quote:
I appreciate the awesome response. I ended up buying the cherry picker and engine stand and pulling the motor out myself. Very rewarding. I was a bit scared at first but honestly took the time and just went through it. I ordered a replacement long block for a decent price. Still waiting for that to come in and will drop that in. I am lucky enough that I was able to drive my s2000 till December before the first snow hit. At the same time my gf started to work at the same company as me so now we carpool. She's starting school in 2 weeks so hopefully this weekend I'll have the replacement motor in. Thanks for the insight everyone! |
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01-04-2017, 04:39 PM | #2144 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Vehicle:2005 Wrx wagon Red |
Quote:
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01-09-2017, 12:02 PM | #2145 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 378119
Join Date: Jan 2014
Chapter/Region:
E. Canada
Location: Ottawa
Vehicle:2004 Impreza WRX World Rally Blue |
Quote:
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2591541 |
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01-11-2017, 12:47 PM | #2146 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 410285
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Washington State
Vehicle:2014 STI Hatch |
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01-16-2017, 09:35 PM | #2147 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 444743
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Winter Park
Vehicle:2015 STI DGM |
2015 STI w/20k - #3 bearing failed. What a nightmare.
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01-17-2017, 04:49 PM | #2148 | ||
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Vehicle:2005 Wrx wagon Red |
Quote:
In that thread, Cobb says they aggressively scale boost based on temperature. This is a common approach but as an off the shelf map, they leave power on the table etc. and obviously there are only so many off the shelf maps available for certain parts combinations. The folks getting pro-tunes either want to make more power or have different parts than Cobb supports with off the shelf maps. So then you rely on a Pro-tuner to appropriately build in the safety of scaling boost tables or fueling or timing tables based on temperature for your specific setup and they will inherently lack the time to wait for all 4 seasons to roll around and do pulls to check & adjust the tune and frankly don't care anyway because they are literally getting paid hourly to tune the car in that period of time. I hope that clarifies. The MAF is just a sensor, it's not the same as tuning the car to prevent knock at all temps. It scales it's readings to remain accurate based on temp but it's not also re-tuning the ECU accordingly unless someone specifically programs the ECU (tunes) it that way. Quote:
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01-19-2017, 08:53 AM | #2149 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 349470
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kalamazoo, Mi & OC California
Vehicle:2013 WRX Black |
I ran into issues with my motor swap now.
The car is hooked up mostly. It cranks but wont start D= I created a new thread if some of you guys can provide some info or guidance? https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...8#post44923348 |
03-10-2017, 12:26 PM | #2150 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 453100
Join Date: Aug 2016
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Rod Bearing Failures
2008 WRX wagon, stock, 83K, #3 COMPLETELY disintegrated the bearing(wasn't there!). Found very pretty flakes in oil pan.
Synthetic 5w30,from the beginning, 93 octane. Driven fairly hard but not over-reved. jeff |
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