Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday December 14, 2017
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-07-2017, 08:55 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NEPA
Vehicle:
Hint
forward in Italian

Default The Stunning Energy Cost Of Tesla’s Semi-Truck

The Stunning Energy Cost Of Tesla’s Semi-Truck
By ZeroHedge - Dec 04, 2017, 1:00 PM CST
Elon Musk’s reliance on shock-and-awe tactics and unjustifiably lofty performance projections is creating serious problems for the so-called visionary as a growing number of experts have come forward to explain that many of his claims would defy the laws of physics.

The latest group to call bulls--- is Aurora Energy Research, a European consultancy which estimated that Tesla’s electric haulage truck will require the same energy as up to 4,000 homes to recharge – a stunning claim that would seem to raise serious questions about the projects viability, according to the Financial Times.



(Click to enlarge)

According to these scientists, modern battery technology is incapable of supporting anything close to the 30-minute charging time Musk has promised for the new Tesla semi-truck.

The U.S. electric carmaker unveiled a battery-powered truck earlier this month, promising haulage drivers they could add 400 miles of charge in as little as 30 minutes using a new “megacharger” to be made by the company.

John Feddersen, chief executive of Aurora Energy Research, a consultancy set up in 2013 by a group of Oxford university professors, said the power required for the megacharger to fill a battery in that amount of time would be 1,600 kilowatts.

That is the equivalent of providing 3,000-4,000 “average” houses, he told a London conference last week, 10 times as powerful as Tesla’s current network of “superchargers” for its electric cars. Tesla declined to comment on the calculations.

Elon Musk, Tesla’s chief executive, has previously said the megachargers would be solar-powered but the company has not confirmed whether they will also have a grid connection for when it is not sunny.

Many of Tesla’s current superchargers are powered in part by renewable energy. The company is also experimenting with storage batteries to ease demands on the grid. Related: Russia Ups Oil Price Forecast For 2018

Tesla has promised to begin delivering its trucks in late 2019. Electric battery capacity has been improving at a rate of roughly 8 percent per year – and some have posited that Musk’s lofty claims are merely just him trying to anticipate what will be possible as the first batch of trucks are being assembled. However, if Aurora’s assessment is accurate, then the technological advancements needed to enable a 30-minute charging time for a semi-truck are still years, if not decades, off.

Furthermore, Musk has said little about the enhancements to the power grid that would be needed to power fleets of Tesla’s semi-trucks.



(Click to enlarge)

“There are smart and dumb ways to incorporate this level of capacity requirement into the system, but either way, fully electrified road transport will need a large amount of new infrastructure,” Feddersen told the Financial Times.

National Grid, which oversees Britain’s electricity system, has suggested that in the most extreme scenario, electric vehicles could create as much as 18 gigawatts of additional demand for power at peak times in the UK by 2050.

This is the equivalent capacity of nearly six nuclear power stations on the scale of the Hinkley Point project under construction in the south-west of England. Related: Iran’s Elaborate Sanction-Skirting Scheme

Aurora posits that Tesla could try an engineering solution called segmenting – but that approach would come with technological hurdles of its own.

“The fastest chargers today can support up to around 450kW charging, so it’s not clear yet how Tesla will achieve their desired charging speeds,” said Colin McKerracher, head of advanced transport at Bloomberg New Energy Finance, a consultancy.

“One option may be to segment the battery somehow and actually charge different segments simultaneously. This adds additional costs and we haven't seen anything like that done at anywhere near this power output.”

By Zerohedge
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 12-07-2017, 09:30 AM   #2
Obviously Tyler
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395955
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Bucks County, PA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Premium
Rock Chip Metallic

Default

These are the stories that lead me to believe I won't live long enough to see electric cars become the new norm. (I'm 24)

Technology is advancing fast, but the seemingly biggest name in electric cars is a hero one day and a bs'er the next.

Quote:
..and some have posited that Musk’s lofty claims are merely just him trying to anticipate what will be possible as the first batch of trucks are being assembled.
This paired with the theory of him making headlines in order to rake in investors just really has me in doubt.
Obviously Tyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 09:40 AM   #3
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego
Vehicle:
....

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obviously Tyler View Post
These are the stories that lead me to believe I won't live long enough to see electric cars become the new norm. (I'm 24)

Technology is advancing fast, but the seemingly biggest name in electric cars is a hero one day and a bs'er the next.



This paired with the theory of him making headlines in order to rake in investors just really has me in doubt.
Unless the world comes to end, you’ll probably see some sort of alternative energy (ev, hydrogen, whatever) well before you die, so calm dow Francis. Go read all the other Tesla threads in the news and rumors and you’ll see a consistent trend of Elon over promising and under delivering every damn time and not by a short margin either. This, along the with the last or so is why I sold all y Tesla stock as Elon is now misleading investors and promising rainbows and unicorns just t keep the company afloat.

Elon is a damn smart man and great innovator but he is a shoddy, unethical business man who can’t manage a business. If Tesla shares tumble either to sell of, stock dilution, etc., it will cause large waves in the stock market. Elon’s ego and arrogance is now overshadowing ability. The best thing for Tesla, Elon, and EV tech is for the auto division to be sold and Elon go all in on being a pure battery / energy company.
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:02 PM   #4
Homeless Junkie
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 471630
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Baltimore MD
Vehicle:
2018 STi base
White

Default

Math... what a hoax! They’re all haters. Elon is so dreamy.

Tesla is up this week. All anyone cares about is that damn tax plan.
Homeless Junkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:32 PM   #5
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'09 wrx
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Aurora Energy Research, a European consultancy
in other words, paid by someone.

Not to say what they're saying is inaccurate, but it's one sided.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:40 PM   #6
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: www.testdrivemylife.com
Vehicle:
2018 Legacy /allroad
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 01:05 PM   #7
4S-TURBO
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 67807
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Vehicle:
---> hot wizard of
the night <---

Default

It's all in how you look at it. There's no reason for the infrastructure if Musk weren't pushing the viability of an EV future. Because who is out there really pushing EV discussion? No promises from governments, private companies, or other auto manufacturers keeps costs and viability out of reach. Not to mention the need to come up with more costly electricity supply. The hurdles are immense and TSLA keeps trucking right along with continued investors. Something's gonna give. Because I see no promises from anybody right now nor on the horizon. If Musk's vision were a real REAL possibility, there wouldn't be a debate in every article about TESLA. It would just be a new reality that these changes were happening. Quietly and quickly. That's how the players roll. We are all inconsequential bystanders in this with our own mixed bag realities.
4S-TURBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 01:14 PM   #8
arghx7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232940
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cold
Default

somebody has to take the first step towards these infrastructure changes. If Tesla's hype machine helps, well that's good thing, even if the product is vaporware and the company goes bankrupt/gets absorbed by a bigger company.
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 01:23 PM   #9
Keshav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1654
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2017 MX-5 RF LE
MV Agusta Brutale S

Default

I bought American Trucking Simulator on sale on Steam and started playing it last week. Good game. While researching mods, I found people asking for someone to make the Tesla Semi-Truck for the game. I was just looking for the autonomous driving mod, which doesn't seem to exist (but should).

In the real world, it would be cool if both existed and that is certainly the way things are moving.

Then we'll need autonomous State Patrol. Autonomous road works crews. etc.
Keshav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 02:03 PM   #10
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego
Vehicle:
....

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
It's all in how you look at it. There's no reason for the infrastructure if Musk weren't pushing the viability of an EV future. Because who is out there really pushing EV discussion? No promises from governments, private companies, or other auto manufacturers keeps costs and viability out of reach. Not to mention the need to come up with more costly electricity supply. The hurdles are immense and TSLA keeps trucking right along with continued investors. Something's gonna give. Because I see no promises from anybody right now nor on the horizon. If Musk's vision were a real REAL possibility, there wouldn't be a debate in every article about TESLA. It would just be a new reality that these changes were happening. Quietly and quickly. That's how the players roll. We are all inconsequential bystanders in this with our own mixed bag realities.
Chevy, Volvo, VW are all pushing ev and the ev discussion. Chevy is now the leader in EV car sales, numerous other companies already have EV busses and trucks. Tesla is almost entirely riding on Elon’s name and fundamentally the company is failing. Additionally if Elon wants EV cars and trucks to succeed, he needs to make charging universal to all EV vehicles without needing adaptors.
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 02:29 PM   #11
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
'18 Pacifica PHEV
'12 RAV4 EV

Default

I missed the point of the original article. 1600 kW? So what? It's an order of magnitude more than the current 135 kW Superchargers. Hardly a show-stopper here... Plus if the battery is 1000 kWh it's charging at 3.2C. Again not out of the realm of possibility by any means.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 10:23 PM   #12
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Chevy, Volvo, VW are all pushing ev and the ev discussion. Chevy is now the leader in EV car sales, numerous other companies already have EV busses and trucks. Tesla is almost entirely riding on Elon’s name and fundamentally the company is failing. Additionally if Elon wants EV cars and trucks to succeed, he needs to make charging universal to all EV vehicles without needing adaptors.
Because the bolt has no competition right now at it's price range...

Just wait until Tesla fix all the manufacturing issues they have and will see who will sell more EV's. Just wait what happens to the bolt if the GOP kills the $7500 federal rebate; no one is going g to buy that turd.

Who has EV class 8 trucks right now on sale?

And http://selenianboondocks.com/2017/11/tesla-semi-part-1/

Last edited by juanmedina; 12-07-2017 at 10:29 PM.
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 02:21 AM   #13
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego
Vehicle:
....

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Because the bolt has no competition right now at it's price range...

Just wait until Tesla fix all the manufacturing issues they have and will see who will sell more EV's. Just wait what happens to the bolt if the GOP kills the $7500 federal rebate; no one is going g to buy that turd.

Who has EV class 8 trucks right now on sale?

And http://selenianboondocks.com/2017/11/tesla-semi-part-1/
People have been saying just wait for Tesla to do xzy for the last 3-4 years. Also, the bolt isn’t a “turd.” Your extreme bias to everything Tesla is nauseating.

FYI, Tesla Semi isn’t a class 8 either. It’s not a long haul truck, might want to get some thing straight.
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 07:48 AM   #14
mhoward1
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 9481
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FFR Challenge #43
Vehicle:
1832 Steam Buggy
Wood

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
It's all in how you look at it. There's no reason for the infrastructure if Musk weren't pushing the viability of an EV future. Because who is out there really pushing EV discussion? No promises from governments, private companies, or other auto manufacturers keeps costs and viability out of reach. .
Trying to understand this statement with all of the manufacturers promising to go EV by xx date, and so many governments saying they will ban ICE cars.
mhoward1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 08:43 AM   #15
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NEPA
Vehicle:
Hint
forward in Italian

Default Budweiser maker Anheuser-Busch reserves 40 Tesla electric trucks (Reuters) -

Budweiser maker Anheuser-Busch reserves 40 Tesla electric trucks
(Reuters) - Budweiser beer maker Anheuser-Busch has reserved 40 Tesla Inc all-electric Semi trucks as it seeks to reduce fuel costs and vehicle emissions, the brewer said on Thursday.

FILE PHOTO - Tesla's new electric semi truck is unveiled during a presentation in Hawthorne, California, U.S., November 16, 2017. REUTERS/Alexandria Sage
It was one of the largest publicly announced orders Tesla has received for its electric trucks, which are scheduled to be in production by 2019.

“At Anheuser-Busch, we are constantly seeking new ways to make our supply chain more sustainable, efficient, and innovative,” said James Sembrot, senior director of logistics strategy. “This investment in Tesla semi-trucks helps us achieve these goals while improving road safety and lowering our environmental impact.”

The U.S. subsidiary of Anheuser-Busch InBev NV plans to use the trucks for shipments to wholesalers within the 500-mile (800-km) range promised by Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk.

The Semi is Tesla’s next step to move the economy away from fossil fuels. Limited early orders have reflected uncertainty about the market for electric commercial vehicles due to their limited range compared with diesel vehicles.

A range of trucking, grocery, and retail companies have reserved at least 117 Tesla Semi trucks, according to a Reuters tally, including Anheuser-Busch’s 40. That number could be higher because fleet operator J.B. Hunt Transport Services Inc said it reserved multiple Semis without providing a specific number.

The Wall Street Journal first reported Anheuser-Busch's Tesla truck orders. (on.wsj.com/2j40eK1)

Last month, Tesla received orders for its electric trucks from high-profile companies such as Wal-Mart Stores Inc.

Germany-based Deutsche Post AG’s DHL and Fortigo Freight Services Inc, one of Canada’s largest fleet management companies, also pre-ordered Tesla’s electric trucks last month to test on limited routes.

Lithuania-based transport company Girteka Logistics reserved one Tesla Semi, the company said.

Tesla declined to comment.

Reporting by Laharee Chatterjee in Bengaluru; Editing by Jonathan Oatis and Andrew Hay

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1E11V9
AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 09:46 AM   #16
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
People have been saying just wait for Tesla to do xzy for the last 3-4 years. Also, the bolt isn’t a “turd.” Your extreme bias to everything Tesla is nauseating.

FYI, Tesla Semi isn’t a class 8 either. It’s not a long haul truck, might want to get some thing straight.
The classes are defined by weight...

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla...-3-long-range/

Quote:
You may need to talk yourself into a Bolt or a Leaf; you need to talk yourself out of paying the premium for this Model 3.
The bolt is a turd compared to the model 3.
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 11:04 AM   #17
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: www.testdrivemylife.com
Vehicle:
2018 Legacy /allroad
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

NOT really, the model 3 is ugly and looks like a mini X. The interior is marginally better than a 90's Toyota
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 11:48 AM   #18
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego
Vehicle:
....

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
The classes are defined by weight...

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla...-3-long-range/



The bolt is a turd compared to the model 3.
I’ve been in bothe a model 3 and Bolt and can tell you you’re wrong.
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 12:16 PM   #19
arghx7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232940
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cold
Default

The problem with the Bolt is that it doesn't have the charging capability of the Model 3. So if you want to do more than commuting with it, you will be at best significantly inconvenienced.
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 12:36 PM   #20
Masterauto
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 198376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Delaware
Vehicle:
17 Alfa Giulia Q S
Nissan GT-R 15, STI 15

Default

He knows your minds controlled by web and few understand economics or energy science.
He is PT Barnum who knows who holds the money and mastered Gov funding for what none want or will pay the extra for. The energy grid can't hold it either but nothing a few hundred $ billion can't fix. You will pay in higher energy bills and taxes. Gen X has tough road ahead.
Masterauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 01:25 PM   #21
Pre
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 139693
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle:
5 do - all the time

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterauto View Post
He knows your minds controlled by web and few understand economics or energy science.
He is PT Barnum who knows who holds the money and mastered Gov funding for what none want or will pay the extra for. The energy grid can't hold it either but nothing a few hundred $ billion can't fix. You will pay in higher energy bills and taxes. Gen X has tough road ahead.


Just do every post about the EV, Solar, what have you as "I hate it". F it, you're already way past ze ban list. Off you go! Scarface on repeat is nastier than Lohan after a binge night!
Pre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 02:33 PM   #22
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I’ve been in bothe a model 3 and Bolt and can tell you you’re wrong.
My co-worker has a bolt and it looks like a tiny minivan. Coefficient of drag is terrible, acceleration is not even close to the model 3, empg is lower, technology in general inferior. It is a turd...

http://m.nasdaq.com/article/sysco-or...20171208-00473
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 02:38 PM   #23
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: www.testdrivemylife.com
Vehicle:
2018 Legacy /allroad
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default





MOdel 3 interior.. LOLOLOLOL

which one is a turd! LOLOLOL
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 02:47 PM   #24
mhoward1
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 9481
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FFR Challenge #43
Vehicle:
1832 Steam Buggy
Wood

Default

So I was reading an interesting article from that was at least a year old, but it a technical interview from a battery engineer about the current challenges in providing larger scale batteries for EV's, and that included even planes.

I don't have the article to quote, but he made a statement that the biggest challenge currently is the customer/client requirement for fast charge/high discharge because of both the heat and battery life management required as well. If that demand was lowered then they could deliver a lot more range.

So The question that rose in my mind if a manufacturer delivered a car that could go 1000 miles on a charge, but only could charge ~200/300 miles a night, would that work?

it would be just the opposite behavior than current ICE owners exhibit. It would be the equivalent of topping you tank off each night (at home of office) so you could go 1000 miles if needed, vs the current of drive to empty and then filling it all at one time to get 300 miles, and repeat.
mhoward1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 03:00 PM   #25
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
'18 Pacifica PHEV
'12 RAV4 EV

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
My co-worker has a bolt and it looks like a tiny minivan. Coefficient of drag is terrible, acceleration is not even close to the model 3, empg is lower, technology in general inferior. It is a turd...
Cd for the Bolt is 0.308. Not great but not terrible.

http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy...ally-believed/

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post




MOdel 3 interior.. LOLOLOLOL

which one is a turd! LOLOLOL
You really prefer the super busy, ugly one? I don't like the concept of having all information in the middle but the Model 3 interior is very clean and looks classier, IMO.

Note that I canceled my own Model 3 reservation--I've got no skin in this particular game besides having a Tesla powertrain in the RAV4 EV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
So I was reading an interesting article from that was at least a year old, but it a technical interview from a battery engineer about the current challenges in providing larger scale batteries for EV's, and that included even planes.

I don't have the article to quote, but he made a statement that the biggest challenge currently is the customer/client requirement for fast charge/high discharge because of both the heat and battery life management required as well. If that demand was lowered then they could deliver a lot more range.

So The question that rose in my mind if a manufacturer delivered a car that could go 1000 miles on a charge, but only could charge ~200/300 miles a night, would that work?

it would be just the opposite behavior than current ICE owners exhibit. It would be the equivalent of topping you tank off each night (at home of office) so you could go 1000 miles if needed, vs the current of drive to empty and then filling it all at one time to get 300 miles, and repeat.
You have a scale problem in your conception. It's near-instantaneous high current draws that are the problem. Level 2 charging at 10, 20, or even 40 kW isn't an issue: that's steady state cruising power draw or less.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.