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Old 05-21-2018, 09:30 PM   #376
Zak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
mechanically that doesn't make since. Sure, for consecutive stops it does, but not with significant time between.
It does if the car is randomly doing something weird with different levels of regenerative braking and/or ABS activity. They noted that Car&Driver also had a large amount of variability, so 3 cars with the problem indicates a design or software problem with the cars rather than a one-off car or testing problem.

I've seen a pickup truck from an American manufacturer that flip flopped back and forth between two methods of applying rear brake pressure when the front brakes were purposely failed for FMVSS testing. Sometimes it would apply full pressure to rears and let the ABS handle it, while other times it would use dynamic rear proportioning logic at the first sign of ABS and then only apply partial pressure to the rears for the rest of the stop. The difference in stopping distance was more than 100ft for a ~500ft stop and was the difference between passing or failing the requirements for that condition. It always made me wonder if they had set it up that way on purpose to ensure that you'd always get one that would pass during the test. Good luck to a driver if they happened to randomly get the wrong mode the one time they needed to stop after a front brake failure!

It is possible that CR's normal method of burnishing the brake pads might not be very effective for a car with significant levels of regenerative braking, but I'd assume the borrowed car for the retest probably had some miles on it which should have alleviated that issue. The resins in new brake pads need to be heated somewhat slowly and kept hot (but not too hot) for a period of time to fully cure the resins in the new pads before the pads should be subjected to high energy stops. If the regen ends up doing most of the work for low energy stops, the pads may not be getting any break-in during their burnishing procedure.
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:39 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Tesla Model 3 review falls short of Consumer Reports recommendation

CN: Fast, great range, and good handling, but inconsistent braking, fussy touchscreen-only controls, wind noise (hadn't heard that one before), and rear seat comfort kicked it down in the ratings.

The quote in that article from the Tesla spokeswoman is scary to me and is one of my biggest problems with Tesla.
Quote:
The Tesla spokeswoman says the company has the ability to update its vehicles over the air. “Unlike other vehicles, Tesla is uniquely positioned to address more corner cases over time through over-the-air software updates, and it continually does so to improve factors such as stopping distance,” she says.
Cars should be well tested before they get in the hands of consumers rather than pushing them out with the plan to fix them with software updates later. If Tesla didn't properly test the car initially, why would I trust them to properly vet their software updates either. How many times has a software update for a computer program or phone fixed one problem only to introduce a more serious totally unrelated one?

My car that stopped fine with the last version of the software might suddenly not stop at all on a new software update. Are they re-certifying the FMVSS tests every time they adjust the regenerative braking settings in new software updates? Based on the risks they take in other areas, I'd bet they aren't.

The same could be said for Autopilot where it could successfully navigate you through the same road 1000 times on one version of the software and then drive you into a barrier your first time down the same road with the next version.

At least with normal cars, I can trust that it is going to act the same way every time I drive it - barring a mechanical failure.
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:55 PM   #378
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Is "$35,000 Model 3" the actual name of this model? I find it odd that nearly every article / headline uses this naming convention even though there has never been a "$35,000 model 3" produced

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
For those that have received the invite to configure their model 3, are they able to order just a bare bones base model or has that been removed for now? If so, what’s the minimum starting price point available for order?
Not according to The Musk: (sorry, don't know how to repost a tweet)


Quote:
Elon Musk
‏Verified account @elonmusk
Replying to @ivanovi_ivaylo

With production, 1st you need achieve target rate & then smooth out flow to achieve target cost. Shipping min cost Model 3 right away wd cause Tesla to lose money & die. Need 3 to 6 months after 5k/wk to ship $35k Tesla & live.
8:08 PM - 20 May 2018
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:12 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Zak View Post
Edmunds has a Model 3 as a long term tester. They seem pretty upset about the problems they've experienced, but most of their complaints were really related to one faulty touch screen.

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...pril-2018.html


Paraphrasing the review part of it:
  • Performance, handling, and range are very good.
  • Poor rear seat comfort
  • Door handles too gimicky making it more work than it should be to get into the car
  • Inside door release buttons not easy to find - even for people that have used them previously
  • Car continuously complained about rear seatbelt not being belted when the rear seat was folded down and loaded with cargo.

Here is a list of their logbook complaints on their 4 month old / 5000mi Model 3:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak View Post
The quote in that article from the Tesla spokeswoman is scary to me and is one of my biggest problems with Tesla.


Cars should be well tested before they get in the hands of consumers rather than pushing them out with the plan to fix them with software updates later. If Tesla didn't properly test the car initially, why would I trust them to properly vet their software updates either. How many times has a software update for a computer program or phone fixed one problem only to introduce a more serious totally unrelated one?

My car that stopped fine with the last version of the software might suddenly not stop at all on a new software update. Are they re-certifying the FMVSS tests every time they adjust the regenerative braking settings in new software updates? Based on the risks they take in other areas, I'd bet they aren't.

The same could be said for Autopilot where it could successfully navigate you through the same road 1000 times on one version of the software and then drive you into a barrier your first time down the same road with the next version.

At least with normal cars, I can trust that it is going to act the same way every time I drive it - barring a mechanical failure.
The full Tesla quote states that they are getting braking numbers in the 130ft on their internal testing and they can enhance such things like braking via an air update vs their competition who can't do that.

Edmunds rated the model 4.5/5 :https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/


And they also did braking testing with both the 18" and 19" wheels and their finding tells a different story:

If Tesla had to get certified per FMVSS what we're their finding on the braking distance? Is the report available to the public?
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:46 PM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
And they also did braking testing with both the 18" and 19" wheels and their finding tells a different story:
https://youtu.be/wLsM5n288qk
And who is to say that a software update didn't change the results that the other magazines got?


Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
If Tesla had to get certified per FMVSS what we're their finding on the braking distance? Is the report available to the public?
The spec is FMVSS 135. https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehi.../TP-135-01.pdf

I don't recall ever seeing any results published publicly, but it is a requirement that all new vehicles sold must meet the specs. Any changes to the system would require that the vehicles can still meet specs, but I'd bet it is unlikely that Tesla is re-running the tests every time they update the software.

The spec includes the burnishing procedure at the start of testing to break-in the pads and also gives the required level of charge for EV vehicles for many sections to account for its affect on regen.

The spec generally allows for pretty long distances (230ft for the 62mph full system stops), so the full system sections usually aren't an issue. Even the longer distances listed by the magazines would meet the spec. The failed brake booster section (551ft target distance) is normally the tough one to pass for most vehicles since the maximum allowable 112lbs of pedal force isn't very much force without boost assistance. The old spec (FMVSS 105) allowed for 150lbs of pedal effort, so 112 was quite a reduction without much of a change in the target distance.

Only 1 of the 6 stops for most of the sections technically needs to meet the target distance, but most manufacturers at least want the average of the 6 to meet it with >10% margin (if not all 6).

There is also a fade section that runs 15 partial stops to get the brakes very hot and then has 2 full system stops that have to be within a certain percentage of the normal "cold" stops. It then runs some more to cool the brakes back down and has another 2 full system stops that have to be quite close to the original "cold" stops. Some of these comparisons to the original "cold" stops can be troublesome to pass.


Something to note - Aftermarket pads don't have to meet any targets at all! You could legally sell cardboard aftermarket brake pads if you wanted to. The OE replacement pads from the manufacturers should meet spec, but their lower tiered "aftermarket" versions do not have to. So GM OE replacement pads would meet the spec but AC-Delco branded pads wouldn't have to - just like Ford OE pads would but their Motorcraft branded pads wouldn't. Some of the larger aftermarket brand's pads are vehicle tested on at least some of the applications to ensure they meet the specs, but even some of the larger aftermarket companies just run dyno simulation tests with little or no vehicle testing. Other companies run nothing and hope for the best.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:38 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Zak View Post
And who is to say that a software update didn't change the results that the other magazines got?

.
so they forgot to change the software for CR? In real life you don't multiple 0-60mph stops one after the other first of all. On the first run they got 130ft and the car is designed to use regen to help it slow down.

Last edited by juanmedina; 05-22-2018 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:36 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
so they forgot to change the software for CR? In real life you don't multiple 0-60mph stops one after the other first of all. On the first run they got 130ft and the car is designed to use regen to help it slow down.

A day later they got 150 ft. Something is wrong with the design.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:33 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
A day later they got 150 ft. Something is wrong with the design.
I think they cooked the brakes even if you leave the car sitting overnight it will do nothing to fix the issue.

Even if it was 150ft it is still safe and it compares to other large cars but yeah not as great as their direct competitors. Model S and Model X have great brakes and it seems that is an easy fix:

Quote:
Elon Musk

@elonmusk
Also, Consumer Reports has an early production car. Model 3 now has improved ride comfort, lower wind noise & many other small improvements. Will request that they test current production.
Quote:
Elon Musk

Verified account

@elonmusk
Follow Follow @elonmusk
More
Replying to @ElectrekCo @FredericLambert
Looks like this can be fixed with a firmware update. Will be rolling that out in a few days. With further refinement, we can improve braking distance beyond initial specs. Tesla won’t stop until Model 3 has better braking than any remotely comparable car.
Quote:
Robert @TalkingTesla
@rrosenbl
7h
Replying to @elonmusk and 2 others
Fantastic. What’s the explanation for variability in stopping distance?


Elon Musk

@elonmusk
ABS calibration algorithm

Last edited by juanmedina; 05-22-2018 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:07 AM   #384
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software cannot fix a lack of proper hardware. If extensive software calibration is needed then it was designed wrong in the first place. I have seen this too many times. Design is done wrong or half assed and then they dump all the problems on the poor software guys, who need to put in band aids to fix it with valve opening inhibits, staged opening and closing of hardware to prevent water hammer in propulsion systems. Rushed mechanical design often requires software to bail them out.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:25 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
software cannot fix a lack of proper hardware. If extensive software calibration is needed then it was designed wrong in the first place. I have seen this too many times. Design is done wrong or half assed and then they dump all the problems on the poor software guys, who need to put in band aids to fix it with valve opening inhibits, staged opening and closing of hardware to prevent water hammer in propulsion systems. Rushed mechanical design often requires software to bail them out.
I was going to make a similar comment - I think the model 3's on the road right now are considered in beta phase; I think the first batches were still in the alpha phase; people are paying to be involved in the testing phases that (typically) are done prior to sales of actual vehicles.

Only time will tell though.

Last edited by Sid03SVT; 05-22-2018 at 10:35 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:29 PM   #386
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Hardware guy always says it's the software guy's fault, software guy says it's the hardware guy's fault, and calibration guy blames everybody.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:24 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
software cannot fix a lack of proper hardware. If extensive software calibration is needed then it was designed wrong in the first place. I have seen this too many times. Design is done wrong or half assed and then they dump all the problems on the poor software guys, who need to put in band aids to fix it with valve opening inhibits, staged opening and closing of hardware to prevent water hammer in propulsion systems. Rushed mechanical design often requires software to bail them out.
Will see what happens.

Quote:
Tesla CEO Details Plans for Model 3 Brake Fix
Elon Musk responds after Consumer Reports finds a problem with braking performance and other flaws
By Patrick Olsen
Last updated: May 23, 2018
80 SHARES

Tesla Model 3 braking
Tesla will issue an over-the-air update to improve the Model 3’s braking performance this weekend, CEO Elon Musk confirmed to Consumer Reports late Tuesday.

Musk first mentioned that a fix was coming via Twitter on Monday, after Consumer Reports said it would not recommend the latest Tesla electric car because of several major flaws, including long stopping distances.

CR measured the Model 3’s stopping distance at 152 feet from 60 mph, which was far worse than any contemporary car we’ve tested. Musk responded by vowing that Tesla would fix the Model 3 braking performance and also make it best in class. “Tesla won’t stop until Model 3 has better braking than any remotely comparable car,” he tweeted Monday.

Tuesday evening, Musk spoke at length on the phone with our director of auto testing to better understand our findings and share information that Tesla had discovered about the braking issue. (CR frequently speaks with manufacturers to answer detailed questions about our test findings.)

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Musk said that Tesla engineers were attributing the Model 3’s poor braking performance in CR's tests to calibration issues with the car’s braking control system. In a followup email, Musk said his engineering team was validating changes to the braking system this week and “assuming that goes well, plan to deploy via OTA to Model 3 fleet this weekend.”

During the call, Musk also said that Tesla had already deployed several improvements to later-production Model 3s that could address some of the ride quality and wind noise concerns CR raised with the car, and that he was considering additional improvements to the vehicle’s controls, based on CR’s feedback.

MORE ON TESLA
Road Test: Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model 3 Falls Short of a CR Recommendation
Tesla Says $35,000 Model 3 Production Ramping Up
This isn’t the first time the automaker has used over-the-air updates to address CR findings. In 2016, when CR pointed out that drivers might not be able to stop their vehicles while in “Summon” mode—a system that allows drivers to move or park their cars without anyone sitting in the vehicles—the automaker responded quickly. Within a week of CR notifying Tesla of its findings, the automaker released an update that fixed the problem.

On the other hand, Tesla owners have sometimes had to wait much longer for critical updates. The company took several months to roll out the software for automatic emergency braking (AEB) to Model S sedans and Model X SUVs with second-generation hardware even though customers were promised AEB would come standard on their vehicles.

Once an update for the Model 3 is sent to our vehicle CR will conduct more tests, says Jake Fisher, director of auto testing. “If Tesla can update the brakes over the air, we will retest our Model 3,” Fisher says. “It would be an industry first if they could improve brake performance remotely.”
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...odel-3-brakes/
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:18 PM   #388
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https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...pril-2018.html

Well.. That's a looooong list of serious issues.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:21 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRodrigues View Post
https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...pril-2018.html

Well.. That's a looooong list of serious issues.
My MKV GTI eerily had similar and as many issues. It was an early build/shipped MKV and I kept it exactly 1 year with half of the issues resolved before I sold it. Reading that list brought back memories of countless dealership visits, roadside tow trucks, and why I typically won't buy a first year generation...let alone a first year model.

That laundry list of fail didn't seem to make it to Consumer Reports' reasons for not recommending the Model 3.
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:59 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by JRodrigues View Post
https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...pril-2018.html

Well.. That's a looooong list of serious issues.
Already posted in this thread and than they say:

Quote:
.Performance
"This car is a joy to drive on Angeles Crest Highway, and I don't say that lightly. Angeles Crest is a famously demanding road that winds up into the San Gabriel Mountains north of Los Angeles. You need brakes, power and a taut, balanced chassis to do it right. The Model 3 has it all. Body roll is minimal, the brakes don't complain, the steering is gratifyingly precise, and there are gobs of instant torque on tap. Plus, the regenerative braking function means you use the actual brake pedal less often.

"It's a new kind of fun to lift off the throttle ahead of a corner and realize you've already scrubbed enough speed without even touching the pedal. After my drive, a friend of mine asked me how the Model 3 compares to the current BMW 3 Series, and I told him I'd rather have the Tesla. He laughed. I wasn't kidding.
They like the brakes
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:55 PM   #391
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Finally saw my first Model 3.

The chrome around the window is visibly misaligned and the panel gaps are also noticably uneven.

The troubles are real, apparently.
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Old 05-23-2018, 08:16 PM   #392
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Finally saw my first Model 3.

The chrome around the window is visibly misaligned and the panel gaps are also noticably uneven.

The troubles are real, apparently.
Lies....

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Old 05-23-2018, 08:43 PM   #393
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If Elon was manufacturing fanboi trophies, you’d surely get one. But only after they fix the manufacturing issue of said trophies.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:41 AM   #394
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Built like a 90s Kia with old GM robots bought at auction at big discount.To udate to better robots cost prohibitive now for Tesla as hemorrhaging cash. The interiors are like a kit car with an ipad screwed to dash for gauge cluster. No instant access knobs. Does Capt. Queeg know who stole his strawberries ?
http://www.autonews.com/article/2018...viet-era-media

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Old 05-24-2018, 10:02 AM   #395
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I will believe my eyes over whatever is in that video that I will not be watching.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:03 AM   #396
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I will believe my own eyes over whatever is in that video.
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Old 05-25-2018, 12:49 PM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsti View Post
Finally saw my first Model 3.

The chrome around the window is visibly misaligned and the panel gaps are also noticably uneven.
I haven't seen a Model 3 yet but there are quit a few Model X's in my area. Whenever I'm stopped beside one at a light I always have a look for such things and have noticed the same issues you did. They seem to be inconsistent though, some are fine but others aren't.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:19 PM   #398
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This model 3 was doing a trip through Europe..

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Old 05-25-2018, 05:43 PM   #399
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Old 05-25-2018, 07:12 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by JRodrigues View Post
This model 3 was doing a trip through Europe..

Here is Tesla response:

Quote:
. “While we appreciate You You Xue’s effort to spread the word about Model 3, he was informed that Tesla does not yet have a presence in Eastern Europe and that there is no connectivity or service available for vehicles there. In addition, Model 3 has not yet been approved and homologated for driving outside of the U.S. and Canada. Although we haven’t been able to retrieve any data from the vehicle given that the accident occurred in an unsupported area, Tesla has always been clear that the driver must remain responsible for the car at all times when using Autopilot. We’re sorry to hear that this accident occurred, and we’re glad You You is safe.”
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Awesome review. I can't wait to get mine.
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