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Old 11-06-2018, 08:59 PM   #26
FuJi K
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Hey guys,

Frequent lurker, constant researcher and rare poster. If the answers exist, I couldn't find them after looking through a few dozen threads.

So after a lot of research on my dream build for an IAG motor, an opportunity arose to get an EJ22T. Needless to say, I took the bait and I'm now more confused than ever trying to set a build plan. Motor has unknown Wiseco pistons currently but is otherwise factory. Currently, I have a '98 2.5RS that has had an EJ257 swapped in along with the whole '04 STi harness and ECU. Some of you might remember it as Skully's RS with the PPG 5-speed. My goal is about 400whp with only mild boost.

Anyway, from my current research, I believe that utilizing a Phase 1 crank and the D25 AB820 EJ255 (06+ WRX) heads would be the best combo mechanically and should bolt up with no machining or modification. Now for the questions.

1. Can I retain my '04 STi ECU and AVCS functionality?

2. I'd like to manage CR with pistons, rather than headgaskets, as I've heard that thicker HGs can alter timing and are more prone to failure. Can anyone recommend a HG thickness for this combo? Shooting for a CR only slightly under 9 for more consistent boost and some better bottom end torque.

3. Are there any inherent benefits to, or would this combo necessitate, a Phase 2 crank?

4. Just to confirm, OEM EJ22T oil pump and JDM turbo water pump are best? Thoughts on low-temp thermostats? Car will see occasional auto-x and potentially track use in the future.

Once all of this is confirmed, I'll start looking more into rods/pistons/valvetrain upgrades. Open to suggestions on all of that as well.

Thanks guys!
Why don't you just run a 75mm crank on your 2.5? That's basically what the 22T is with just slightly smaller bore. You'll get the same power delivery. at just around 400whp, the 2.5L will do that all day with a lot of low end torque. The 22T just shifts the powerband higher.

I've ran my 22T setup in the past. A built 2.5L running a 75mm crank will do the same thing and 600whp is easy to obtain.

We have no crank issues running the 79mm cranks towards 9000rpms.
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Old 11-07-2018, 02:11 AM   #27
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Or, you know, just keep a 2.5 in there.


Also, despite it being a direct fit and working with the wiseco 2.2 stroker pistons, don't use a phase 1 2.5 crank. They have a smaller rod journal diameter, so are weaker and have worse oiling.
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Old 11-07-2018, 10:42 AM   #28
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Why don't you just run a 75mm crank on your 2.5? That's basically what the 22T is with just slightly smaller bore. You'll get the same power delivery. at just around 400whp, the 2.5L will do that all day with a lot of low end torque. The 22T just shifts the powerband higher.

I've ran my 22T setup in the past. A built 2.5L running a 75mm crank will do the same thing and 600whp is easy to obtain.

We have no crank issues running the 79mm cranks towards 9000rpms.
I've been hoping you'd pop in here. So my 2.5 currently has about 160k on it and will need a rebuild soon. I believe one cylinder is losing compression. Having seen so many of them in my area fail (good friend of mine owns a Subaru performance shop) I'm hesitant to build one that isn't closed deck and I don't want to be just another Stage 2 IAG block. They're great blocks, but I just want the unique factor and this will save some cost, while having more power potential down the road.

Plus, a 22 in a GC is just a classic combo in my opinion. I'm only now leaning towards the 79mm crank swap, but perhaps only with an aftermarket dual-thrust setup. I want all the things. Low end torque and a 9k redline because I want to be difficult.

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Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Or, you know, just keep a 2.5 in there.


Also, despite it being a direct fit and working with the wiseco 2.2 stroker pistons, don't use a phase 1 2.5 crank. They have a smaller rod journal diameter, so are weaker and have worse oiling.
See above. TLDR; I don't have closed deck IAG money and current motor needs rebuild.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:17 PM   #29
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I've been hoping you'd pop in here. So my 2.5 currently has about 160k on it and will need a rebuild soon. I believe one cylinder is losing compression. Having seen so many of them in my area fail (good friend of mine owns a Subaru performance shop) I'm hesitant to build one that isn't closed deck and I don't want to be just another Stage 2 IAG block. They're great blocks, but I just want the unique factor and this will save some cost, while having more power potential down the road.

Plus, a 22 in a GC is just a classic combo in my opinion. I'm only now leaning towards the 79mm crank swap, but perhaps only with an aftermarket dual-thrust setup. I want all the things. Low end torque and a 9k redline because I want to be difficult.
At 400whp, the EJ257 block will do that all day no sweat. You need to be realistic on actually having 400whp now, or not. You build the setup for the power you're shooting for and actually run it. If I build a 700hp capable shortblock, but only run it at 400hp, the money spent could have been used for other areas of the car.

You need to look at getting there efficiently and not having to do so much work or custom parts. Off the shelf parts are nice to have when you're rebuilding. Both times I've built my 22t was with custom pistons because not wanting the pistons to come out of the deck. Do you need a closed deck block? If you actually are going to benefit from it, it's nice. We've done setups running a built 257 block with 99.75 bore pushing 600whp. Not even closed deck.

You can't have it all. You have to work with what you got. When I have to drive these cars and make sure they're performing the best they can, I myself have to adjust my driving to bring out the performance of the setup. 700whp setups with the power coming in at about 4800-8500rpms, it's just the nature of the setup. I still have a powerband of around 3500rpms. No problem, just drive it accordingly to the powerband. I come back to drive a VF48 stg2 E85 STi, and the powerband is 2500-6000rpms. It's still around a 3500rpm setup but lower RPMs. Just drive accordingly to the nature of the setup. You want it all, you need to buy something like a Corvette so you have the torque band from down low and a broad powerband that a V8 gives.
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:30 PM   #30
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See above. TLDR; I don't have closed deck IAG money and current motor needs rebuild.
You can go a long way without a closed deck. Just get on here and see how many people have actually split their liner and then see how much power they were making and for how long.

I think you'd be surprised.
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Old 11-09-2018, 11:48 AM   #31
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At 400whp, the EJ257 block will do that all day no sweat. You need to be realistic on actually having 400whp now, or not. You build the setup for the power you're shooting for and actually run it. If I build a 700hp capable shortblock, but only run it at 400hp, the money spent could have been used for other areas of the car.

You need to look at getting there efficiently and not having to do so much work or custom parts. Off the shelf parts are nice to have when you're rebuilding. Both times I've built my 22t was with custom pistons because not wanting the pistons to come out of the deck. Do you need a closed deck block? If you actually are going to benefit from it, it's nice. We've done setups running a built 257 block with 99.75 bore pushing 600whp. Not even closed deck.
So I realize an overbuilt block won't give me greater reliability or a better powerband per se, but if I need to rebuild a block, why go with a 257 over a 22? I think the 22 can be built with mostly off the shelf items with only thrust position machining at the most. My thinking is that if I invest in the longblock now, it'll just be a matter of turbo and fueling down the road to make more power.

Call me paranoid, but I don't want to build an open deck 257 and down the road decide I want 700hp only to feel timid about the block. I'm not trying to do a budget build, so cost isn't an issue within reason. The car has full suspension, chassis and a built trans currently. All supporting mods done and only the longblock and turbo are factory at this point.

The goal is to start off doing regional autocross and potentially move into NASA or something similar over the years as time, skill and budget permits. Plus there's just something about a 22 in a GC. Call it nostalgia, but if I wasn't going this route then I'd look into doing a built FA with EJ-position turbo at this point cause obviously I want to be difficult.
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Old 11-09-2018, 02:16 PM   #32
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GC never came with a 22T so not a lot of nostalgia really.

But yes from a future proof point of view it is an excellent block to start with...but only if you also use internals that are on par with it.
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:04 PM   #33
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GC never came with a 22T so not a lot of nostalgia really.

But yes from a future proof point of view it is an excellent block to start with...but only if you also use internals that are on par with it.
The 22B though... So let me not call it nostalgia then, but rather an homage.

I don't intend to shortcut the build. It'll cost me a little more than just closing in the 257 and building that, but I think I'll get the higher rev range I want and it'll just be cool. Especially if I can manage a dual thrust setup. I've seen a lot of discussion about the feasibility, but no documented examples.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:00 PM   #34
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Dual thrust a total waste of time/money...probably why no examples.

As for rpm range, a well built setup will easily do 8k regardless of engine size. So that aspect is irrelevant. You could of course aim higher, but there really is little point.

And the 22B block was not the same as the EJ22T....the old Legacy block would be better with the oil squirters.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:28 PM   #35
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Dual thrust a total waste of time/money...probably why no examples.

As for rpm range, a well built setup will easily do 8k regardless of engine size. So that aspect is irrelevant. You could of course aim higher, but there really is little point.

And the 22B block was not the same as the EJ22T....the old Legacy block would be better with the oil squirters.
There are users on this site that have build 22Ts with a dual thrust crank. There might not be any build journals for those builds, but they have been mentioned by those who have built them and seemed happy with the results.

I don't think the OP needs to go that route though. Like I said, I easily hit 350-360 whp running a phase 1 stock 22T/E crank and haven't had any issues for two years DDing my setup. It's plenty of power for tooling around town, and enough power to get you into trouble.

Problem with the 22T oil squirters is that they clog or fall out. Loctite keeps them in place though. But I had to cobble two sets in order to get a working set. However, I did find a source in The United Arab Emeriates where I was able to purchase BNIB squirters for $2.80/each lol. I bought three sets just for the novelty. Otherwise you can get them from Roger Clark Motorsports or ebay for a lot of money. The part number was impossible to find for years since the squirters are not in any US Subaru parts catalog and dealerships had no idea what you were talking about if you inquired.

22T block is cool and all but I think the 257 with upgraded internals is a better choice. Makes more power and tq.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:42 PM   #36
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There are users on this site that have build 22Ts with a dual thrust crank. There might not be any build journals for those builds, but they have been mentioned by those who have built them and seemed happy with the results.

I don't think the OP needs to go that route though. Like I said, I easily hit 350-360 whp running a phase 1 stock 22T/E crank and haven't had any issues for two years DDing my setup. It's plenty of power for tooling around town, and enough power to get you into trouble.

Problem with the 22T oil squirters is that they clog or fall out. Loctite keeps them in place though. But I had to cobble two sets in order to get a working set. However, I did find a source in The United Arab Emeriates where I was able to purchase BNIB squirters for $2.80/each lol. I bought three sets just for the novelty. Otherwise you can get them from Roger Clark Motorsports or ebay for a lot of money. The part number was impossible to find for years since the squirters are not in any US Subaru parts catalog and dealerships had no idea what you were talking about if you inquired.

22T block is cool and all but I think the 257 with upgraded internals is a better choice. Makes more power and tq.
Been using 22T blocks for years and never had an oil squirter issue, and there's little question it is the stronger block. Although that aspect is irrelevant for the OP's modest goals.

For a road car etc, the extra capacity of the 2.5 would be worthwhile though for power torque and better spool.

Certainly $2.80 is very cheap, but 10 each here isnt totally unreasonable either and they're readily available

https://www.importcarparts.co.uk/par...er&searchPart=
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:30 PM   #37
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Dual thrust a total waste of time/money...probably why no examples.

As for rpm range, a well built setup will easily do 8k regardless of engine size. So that aspect is irrelevant. You could of course aim higher, but there really is little point.

And the 22B block was not the same as the EJ22T....the old Legacy block would be better with the oil squirters.
Well, thrust #5 is better for a heavier clutch and most aftermarket cranks, as well as earlier STi cranks, are already machined for both thrusts so why not try?

The 22 will rev a little happier than the 257 I'd imagine, even with a larger crank. The 22T is the old Legacy Turbo block with the oil squirters. I know it's not a 22G block and I never implied it was. It's just the matter of saying I have a GC with an EJ22. To me personally, that's cool and I don't need anyone to agree.

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Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
There are users on this site that have build 22Ts with a dual thrust crank. There might not be any build journals for those builds, but they have been mentioned by those who have built them and seemed happy with the results.

22T block is cool and all but I think the 257 with upgraded internals is a better choice. Makes more power and tq.
I appreciate the note on the oil squirters. I think the 257 is an overall more capable block, but I just don't want to do the same thing everyone else has done a million times over. If it was all about doing the most cost effective and reliable thing every time, then I'd buy an Evo. I want to be a little different and do what makes me happy personally.

I know a lot of people have run a dual thrust crank, but none have actually utilized both bearing positions from what I can tell. My goal is to actually run both.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:31 PM   #38
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Been using 22T blocks for years and never had an oil squirter issue, and there's little question it is the stronger block. Although that aspect is irrelevant for the OP's modest goals.
I've only built two 22Ts, but have dismantled five or six blocks. Each one was missing a squirter that fell out, and about 1/3 of the squirters were clogged and wouldn't open, or at a much higher psi than they should. I used to find 22T blocks somewhat regularly, and me and my buddy would ship them to the UK.

Your link is showing the squirters at 40 each on my end.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:39 PM   #39
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I've only built two 22Ts, but have dismantled five or six blocks. Each one was missing a squirter that fell out, and about 1/3 of the squirters were clogged and wouldn't open, or at a much higher psi than they should. I used to find 22T blocks somewhat regularly, and me and my buddy would ship them to the UK.

Your link is showing the squirters at 40 each on my end.
The link clearly shows 40 for a set of 4 ( even teh picture shows 4....vs the listing for 1 single jet.

Maybe if you're talking about a factory EJ22T with a hundred thousand miles or more may have squirter issues...probably not unreasonable.

But if it happens to anything built for performance, then questions do need asked of the builder..unless it too is in the 6 figure usage range.

And we do like them here in the UK, simply because they work and have been proven to say 800 and beyond with minimal work.
2.5's just do not do that without a lot of work
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:44 PM   #40
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The link clearly shows 40 for a set of 4 ( even teh picture shows 4....vs the listing for 1 single jet.
Lol, my bad!

Yeah, all those blocks were high mileage, 150k+.
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Old 11-09-2018, 07:31 PM   #41
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What do you mean by time bomb? I would assume the 79mm crank would be more reliable and provide a bit better low end with the longer stroke.
The longer stroke leaves it with less bearing overlap, so it has more flex. That flex with big power leads to snapping a crank.

Certain OEM cranks have (or had) better metallurgy than others. It was for this reason I used to order the old stock cranks with higher manganese and materials lab identified to be pretty much 4340, than the cheaper cranks that got nitriding or later, heat treat. I'd take the old cranks and send them out in batches for custom nitriding. Best material and higher surface hardness. The had them polish off the white layer.

But most everyone thought $600 was too much for crank. Still cheaper than an nitrided Ver 8 crank.
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Old 11-10-2018, 02:50 PM   #42
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And we do like them here in the UK, simply because they work and have been proven to say 800 and beyond with minimal work.
2.5's just do not do that without a lot of work
Basically my reasoning for wanting to build it. A 257 can do what I want now, but won't do what I might want later on and it'll end up costing more.

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The longer stroke leaves it with less bearing overlap, so it has more flex. That flex with big power leads to snapping a crank.

Certain OEM cranks have (or had) better metallurgy than others. It was for this reason I used to order the old stock cranks with higher manganese and materials lab identified to be pretty much 4340, than the cheaper cranks that got nitriding or later, heat treat. I'd take the old cranks and send them out in batches for custom nitriding. Best material and higher surface hardness. The had them polish off the white layer.

But most everyone thought $600 was too much for crank. Still cheaper than an nitrided Ver 8 crank.
Wouldn't that issue be present in EJ25s as well then? What kind of power levels have you seen crank flex at?

Interesting note on the cranks. Not sure I'd be able to source one here now, so aftermarket it is!
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:33 AM   #43
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So I realize an overbuilt block won't give me greater reliability or a better powerband per se, but if I need to rebuild a block, why go with a 257 over a 22? I think the 22 can be built with mostly off the shelf items with only thrust position machining at the most. My thinking is that if I invest in the longblock now, it'll just be a matter of turbo and fueling down the road to make more power.

Call me paranoid, but I don't want to build an open deck 257 and down the road decide I want 700hp only to feel timid about the block. I'm not trying to do a budget build, so cost isn't an issue within reason. The car has full suspension, chassis and a built trans currently. All supporting mods done and only the longblock and turbo are factory at this point.

The goal is to start off doing regional autocross and potentially move into NASA or something similar over the years as time, skill and budget permits. Plus there's just something about a 22 in a GC. Call it nostalgia, but if I wasn't going this route then I'd look into doing a built FA with EJ-position turbo at this point cause obviously I want to be difficult.
400whp vs 700whp is a big jump. You need a whole different fuel setup, beefy axles, output shaft, redo your suspension setup because you now have more tire slip. When you decide to go 700whp with your 400whp motor, you need to rebuild your motor already.

I'm just being realistic here, having done these setups. Keep it simple.

The block you want is currently in UK. My built 22T stroker 2.4L with pauter +2mm long rods and 1/2" arp2000 head studs, ARP case bolts, balanced internals, wiseco 8.5:1 pistons spec with 50cc heads, upgraded JE wrist pins, thrust#5 conversion, ej257 crank, plugged oil squirters. It'll drive like a 2.5L all day. 9000rpms if you will with a sufficient turbo. It wasn't hard to build. No different than building an ej257, but you better know what you're dealing with and a machine shop that understands/ knows what you're asking them to do.

Have at it.
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Old 11-13-2018, 11:47 AM   #44
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400whp vs 700whp is a big jump. You need a whole different fuel setup, beefy axles, output shaft, redo your suspension setup because you now have more tire slip. When you decide to go 700whp with your 400whp motor, you need to rebuild your motor already.

I'm just being realistic here, having done these setups. Keep it simple.

The block you want is currently in UK. My built 22T stroker 2.4L with pauter +2mm long rods and 1/2" arp2000 head studs, ARP case bolts, balanced internals, wiseco 8.5:1 pistons spec with 50cc heads, upgraded JE wrist pins, thrust#5 conversion, ej257 crank, plugged oil squirters. It'll drive like a 2.5L all day. 9000rpms if you will with a sufficient turbo. It wasn't hard to build. No different than building an ej257, but you better know what you're dealing with and a machine shop that understands/ knows what you're asking them to do.

Have at it.
Well color me envious. That's the kind of build I'm going for, minus the plugged oil squirters. Why plug them? Down the road it should be a matter of turbo, fuel and supporting mods to get to where I'd realistically ever want to be, like you said. I doubt I'll ever want 700hp but with E85 who knows. I can't imagine it would take a whole rebuild again if the internals are stout and by then the motor should be nicely broken in. Am I wrong in this perception?

I already have the block and again, the rest of the car is already ready already. Straight cut trans with billet output gears, adjustable everything on suspension, just about every brace Cusco makes, external reservoir coils... Just need axles, a rear LSD and driver mod.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:09 PM   #45
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Wouldn't that issue be present in EJ25s as well then? What kind of power levels have you seen crank flex at?
All cranks flex, to some extent, at any power. It isn't like there's some fine line. Cylinder pressure has a lot to do with it and depending on tune, for the same power level, that too can vary.

Both broken cranks I've seen were on time attack cars making over 400+ lb-ft. The first was several seasons at 400+lb-ft and the second died at nearly 600 lb-ft.

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Old 11-15-2018, 11:48 AM   #46
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Before Andy moved onto the 6cyl, pretty sure he ran his 8's on a stock 79mm crank.

A friend has had a stock crank on his daily that's around the 700 mark and it's been fine for years.
Although obviously not the same abuse as a race car
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Old 11-15-2018, 12:17 PM   #47
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GC never came with a 22T so not a lot of nostalgia really.

But yes from a future proof point of view it is an excellent block to start with...but only if you also use internals that are on par with it.
didnt the 22b come with the closed deck 2.2?
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Old 11-15-2018, 12:30 PM   #48
no694terry
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if motor has wiseco's its a pretty good chance theyre stroker pistons and its already got a 79mm crank in it.

and screw 2.5 blocks. the liners are as thin as the sheetmetal in you furnace. Engine management has come along way since the heavier duty 2.0 and 2.2 blocks have been left behind
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:01 PM   #49
stevieturbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru_gc8 View Post
didnt the 22b come with the closed deck 2.2?
Yes, but it didnt have the oil squirters, so still a little different than the old 22T
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:14 PM   #50
no694terry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
Yes, but it didnt have the oil squirters, so still a little different than the old 22T
ya i actually think it was closer related to the ej20g closed deck block
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