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Old 01-19-2019, 03:29 PM   #26
oichan
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I still prefer the engine in my STI over the one in my 19 WRX Limited. As a daily driver the WRX engine is fuel efficient so it's fine, but power delivery is sloppy even with AP.
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Old 01-19-2019, 06:15 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
10+ years old, huh? The EJ engine was introduced in Feb 1989 in the MY90 Legacy (a 217hp turbocharged EJ20) . The EJ will be 30 years old next month. No other mainstream automotive brand has an engine this old still being sold. In an age of rapid advances in fuel efficiency and performance, Subaru is the only mainstream carmaker still nursing a dinosaur.
Wrong. The Chevy small block V8.
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:32 PM   #28
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The EJ20's twinscroll turbo made it torquier than the EJ25 with the slow-spooling singlescroll turbo. Subaru went with the EJ25 because it produced less NOx while being cheaper to manufacture.

WRC rules don't have anything to do with any of it. WRC hasn't had a homologation engine requirement since the 90s. Japan (and quite a few other markets) has crazy taxes on anything over 2.0L.



10+ years old, huh? The EJ engine was introduced in Feb 1989 in the MY90 Legacy (a 217hp turbocharged EJ20) . The EJ will be 30 years old next month. No other mainstream automotive brand has an engine this old still being sold. In an age of rapid advances in fuel efficiency and performance, Subaru is the only mainstream carmaker still nursing a dinosaur.
General Motors V8's still use pushrods and configurations going back to 1957...an in their highest performing cars. 15 years for an engine in production is a short time frame.
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
General Motors V8's still use pushrods and configurations going back to 1957...an in their highest performing cars. 15 years for an engine in production is a short time frame.
This.
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:30 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
General Motors V8's still use pushrods and configurations going back to 1957...an in their highest performing cars. 15 years for an engine in production is a short time frame.
but they dont crack ringlands and spin bearings on a regular basis.
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:32 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
The EJ20's twinscroll turbo made it torquier than the EJ25 with the slow-spooling singlescroll turbo. Subaru went with the EJ25 because it produced less NOx while being cheaper to manufacture.

WRC rules don't have anything to do with any of it. WRC hasn't had a homologation engine requirement since the 90s. Japan (and quite a few other markets) has crazy taxes on anything over 2.0L.



10+ years old, huh? The EJ engine was introduced in Feb 1989 in the MY90 Legacy (a 217hp turbocharged EJ20) . The EJ will be 30 years old next month. No other mainstream automotive brand has an engine this old still being sold. In an age of rapid advances in fuel efficiency and performance, Subaru is the only mainstream carmaker still nursing a dinosaur.
Nothing a CVT and pi** poor factory tuning can’t fix. Rest assured the boys over at Subaru know what they are doing.



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Originally Posted by oichan View Post
I still prefer the engine in my STI over the one in my 19 WRX Limited. As a daily driver the WRX engine is fuel efficient so it's fine, but power delivery is sloppy even with AP.
Out of curiosity, what transmission is in the WRX?
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:31 AM   #32
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Though I miss my ‘09 STI and the boxer rumble, I don’t miss the spun rod bearing that chewed up the engine and turbo.

I have zero complaints about the FA20DIT, (so far).
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Old 01-20-2019, 01:55 PM   #33
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Lol look at the huge gains in horsepower and mpgs in the Chevy small blocks though. An LT4 makes what 650hp/tq? The LT1 makes way more power than an EJ25 and they can eek out similar gas mileage not to mention it's much more reliable.

In comparison people here go nuts when a stock EJ25 can make 310-340hp and reliability is questionable at best.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:27 PM   #34
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Lol look at the huge gains in horsepower and mpgs in the Chevy small blocks though. An LT4 makes what 650hp/tq? The LT1 makes way more power than an EJ25 and they can eek out similar gas mileage not to mention it's much more reliable.

In comparison people here go nuts when a stock EJ25 can make 310-340hp and reliability is questionable at best.
Very true, but needs to be looked at in the context of how long the respective engines have been in the U.S There was a 25 year gap in General Motors horsepower production...approx. from 1973 to 1998 before their engines were making 300+ horsepower where during that gap they made half that...even in the corvette. In the late 60's they were making engines with 500-600 horsepower...so in essence it took them 50 years to get back to those horsepower levels. The EJ has only even been in the U.S for 15 years.
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Old 01-20-2019, 05:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panacea View Post
Wrong. The Chevy small block V8.
Went out of production in 2003. The "LS" series debuted in 1995.

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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
The EJ has only even been in the U.S for 15 years.
Are you saying it's 2005? Damn... I have to relive the Eagles losing the Super Bowl again.
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Old 01-20-2019, 06:08 PM   #36
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Out of curiosity, what transmission is in the WRX?
My 19 WRX Limited is MT.
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Old 01-20-2019, 07:49 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
Very true, but needs to be looked at in the context of how long the respective engines have been in the U.S There was a 25 year gap in General Motors horsepower production...approx. from 1973 to 1998 before their engines were making 300+ horsepower where during that gap they made half that...even in the corvette. In the late 60's they were making engines with 500-600 horsepower...so in essence it took them 50 years to get back to those horsepower levels. The EJ has only even been in the U.S for 15 years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine

EJ25 variant has been in the US since 1996. About 23 years.
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:57 PM   #38
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine

EJ25 variant has been in the US since 1996. About 23 years.
True, but the STI variant has only been here since 2004....the engines in GM's highest performing cars trace back to the late 50's. There's no comparison timewise. And again GM had a 25 year span where their performance V8's didnt make more than 280 horsepower...if that...it was more like 230-250.....and over 50 years for them to get back to where they were when they were making 500-600 horsepower in the late 60's with the newest generations that are out now...and they needed superchargers to do it. To put that in perspective it would be the same as if the STI had been here since the late 60's making 300 horsepower...and then they still made them but didn't make more than 150 horsepower for 50 years and in 2019 they brought the S209 with 340+. Sooooo. Again the 300-341 Horsepower U.S STI EJ is relatively young at 15 years for that version. You need to research the history of the GM V8's the 60's muscle car era, the emmissions era in the 70's and 80's to early 90's and you'll see the big picture.

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Old 01-20-2019, 09:56 PM   #39
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No. The Chevy Small Block and LS/LT are completely different engines. GM designed all new engines to fit the old packaging and kept to some traditional bore spacing and the like.. but that's it. You can't bolt LS/LT stuff onto a Small Block.

You can bolt stuff from a 2019 STI onto a 1990 Legacy and vice-versa. Subaru has not redesigned the engine.

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Old 01-21-2019, 10:30 AM   #40
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No. The Chevy Small Block and LS/LT are completely different engines. GM designed all new engines to fit the old packaging and kept to some traditional bore spacing and the like.. but that's it. You can't bolt LS/LT stuff onto a Small Block.

You can bolt stuff from a 2019 STI onto a 1990 Legacy and vice-versa. Subaru has not redesigned the engine.
True.....but that is not an epiphany. They used the same V8 for 48 years at one point and the point was that someone said no one has had the same engine in production longer than the EJ. There have been versions of the small block V8 where parts didnt interchange from the 60's -80's....but they were still the same configuration...pushrod V8's. They simply used what they had been using since the late 50's and 60's...dimensionally, displacement wise and the layout of the engines was essentially the same, pushrod 350 V8's...and its simply because its been in production for 60 years. Your comparing the only 15 year run of the EJ in the STI that started in 2004 to another manufacturer that went through decades of industry wide technological and production evolution. Subaru have changed the crank manufacturing process, the heads/valves, the pistons, the fuel injectors and the valve actuation the turbo, etc etc. The STI didn't have the position that it had 60 years to go through changes since there hasn't been anywhere near the revolution in tech that there was from 1953-say 2010. Since 2004 Subaru hasn't had to do anything revolutionary to the EJ in the STI for it to maintain its success in its category. The S209 basically wipes out the competition in its category now anyway with the EJ still under the hood, amoung 4 door 4 cyl, turbo allwheel drive cars.


The reason the GM high performance V8's have "changed" is because it has been in production for over 60 YEARS and went through several era's of industry wide technology changes!! Again the EJ in the STI has only been here for 15 not having to go through the same decades of changes in tech that the GM V8's did. You need to put things in perspective.

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Old 01-21-2019, 11:23 AM   #41
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granted chevy v8's have constantly been getting upgrades and getting regular hp bumps from the late 90's.
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Old 01-21-2019, 11:42 AM   #42
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True.....but that is not an epiphany. They used the same V8 for 48 years at one point and the point was that someone said no one has had the same engine in production longer than the EJ. There have been versions of the small block V8 where parts didnt interchange from the 60's -80's....but they were still the same configuration...pushrod V8's. They simply used what they had been using since the late 50's and 60's...dimensionally, displacement wise and the layout of the engines was essentially the same, pushrod 350 V8's...and its simply because its been in production for 60 years. Your comparing the only 15 year run of the EJ in the STI that started in 2004 to another manufacturer that went through decades of industry wide technological and production evolution. Subaru have changed the crank manufacturing process, the heads/valves, the pistons, the fuel injectors and the valve actuation the turbo, etc etc. The STI didn't have the position that it had 60 years to go through changes since there hasn't been anywhere near the revolution in tech that there was from 1953-say 2010. Since 2004 Subaru hasn't had to do anything revolutionary to the EJ in the STI for it to maintain its success in its category. The S209 basically wipes out the competition in its category now anyway with the EJ still under the hood, amoung 4 door 4 cyl, turbo allwheel drive cars.


The reason the GM high performance V8's have "changed" is because it has been in production for over 60 YEARS and went through several era's of industry wide technology changes!! Again the EJ in the STI has only been here for 15 not having to go through the same decades of changes in tech that the GM V8's did. You need to put things in perspective.
Wipes out the competition? The Focus RS still makes more Hp/Tq (and likely better MPG) but you really can't comapre the S209 directly to a Focus RS or an Evo or a Golf R if the MSRP is beyond $42-45K. If the rumored $60-65K MSRP is true the S209 is in completely different class of cars and at places liege the track are competing with GT350R, Camaro ZL1, C7 Grand Sport, etc.

This car is really just for the Subaru enthusiast who has money to burn and wants something exclusive.
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Old 01-21-2019, 12:50 PM   #43
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Comparing a specific engine “EJ257” to general small block V8 makes no sense. A better comparison would be Subaru’s H4 engine configuration which actually has been around much longer than the current EJ in the STI. If you take a specific example such as the 2015+ LT4 And compare to the EJ257, now the EJ does indeed look old by comparison.
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Old 01-21-2019, 01:20 PM   #44
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There have been versions of the small block V8 where parts didnt interchange from the 60's -80's....but they were still the same configuration...pushrod V8's. They simply used what they had been using since the late 50's and 60's...dimensionally, displacement wise and the layout of the engines was essentially the same, pushrod 350 V8's...and its simply because its been in production for 60 years.
This is like say the FA/FB motor are the same EJ motor because they are boxer engines with similar packaging. The 5.7 LS motor is not same displacement, it is 346 not a 350 and it has a different bore and stroke. The LS motor was a clean sheet redesign in 1997 with only the limitation package dimensions and the same 4.4 bore spacing. IIRC The only parts that interchange are a handful of bolts. The Gen IV and Gen V SBC motor are an evolution of the GEN III LS design.
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:16 PM   #45
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Wipes out the competition? The Focus RS still makes more Hp/Tq (and likely better MPG) but you really can't comapre the S209 directly to a Focus RS or an Evo or a Golf R if the MSRP is beyond $42-45K. If the rumored $60-65K MSRP is true the S209 is in completely different class of cars and at places liege the track are competing with GT350R, Camaro ZL1, C7 Grand Sport, etc.

This car is really just for the Subaru enthusiast who has money to burn and wants something exclusive.
^This. I would really like to understand how it wipes out the competition.

I think I saw somewhere (Engineering Explained, maybe) the claimed 341HP includes usage of the water sprayer.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:42 PM   #46
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^This. I would really like to understand how it wipes out the competition.

I think I saw somewhere (Engineering Explained, maybe) the claimed 341HP includes usage of the water sprayer.
So, how's that 2019 Focus RS?
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:03 PM   #47
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So, how's that 2019 Focus RS?


Touché

Not trying to get into a measuring contest. The S209 is fantastic on paper.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:23 PM   #48
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Touché

Not trying to get into a measuring contest. The S209 is fantastic on paper.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not an STI fanboi (though my trousers are a bit tighter since they announced we would get the S209) But the STI has been able to outlive much better cars simply because it's the best all around car. It's a Swiss Army knife, really. Sure, a scalpel is great in a surgical room or a hobby table, but in the woods it's almost useless. Same goes for a machete. In the woods it's great, but it's worthless in a hospital. Swiss Army? Sure, you may not perform surgery with it (though you could if you had too) It's the perfect tool to have on you at all times.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:23 PM   #49
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It’s fantastic for more paper.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:40 PM   #50
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Wipes out the competition? The Focus RS still makes more Hp/Tq (and likely better MPG) but you really can't comapre the S209 directly to a Focus RS or an Evo or a Golf R if the MSRP is beyond $42-45K. If the rumored $60-65K MSRP is true the S209 is in completely different class of cars and at places liege the track are competing with GT350R, Camaro ZL1, C7 Grand Sport, etc.

This car is really just for the Subaru enthusiast who has money to burn and wants something exclusive.
I meant from a performance standpoint around a track and in acceleration E.T's where the previous iterations of the STI were only keeping up but now the S209 can beat them in probably everything....and is a MUCH more durable package compared to the psuedo "allwheel" drive of the others. No one is really going to care about gas mileage at that level of performance....its a moot point. As for the price it will almost guaranteed to be under $60,000. For example the Diamond Edtion has an MSRP of $57,000. Given the year over year over year profitability growth I think people are overstating the cost for them to produce this car or more specifically to make a profit. I say it will MSRP between 55,000-57,000. The dealer markup is another story. Also the car is detuned with the factory 2 cat downpipe...the S209 will almost certainly make close to 400 horsepower with a 3" downpipe and reflash...maybe more.

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