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Old 01-21-2019, 08:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
I meant from a performance standpoint around a track and in acceleration E.T's where the previous iterations of the STI were only keeping up but now the S209 can beat them in probably everything....and is a MUCH more durable package compared to the psuedo "allwheel" drive of the others. No one is really going to care about gas mileage at that level of performance....its a moot point. As for the price it will almost guaranteed to be under $60,000. For example the Diamond Edtion has an MSRP of $57,000. Given the year over year over year profitability growth I think people are overstating the cost for them to produce this car or more specifically to make a profit. I say it will MSRP between 55,000-57,000. The dealer markup is another story. Also the car is detuned with the factory 2 cat downpipe...the S209 will almost certainly make close to 400 horsepower with a 3" downpipe and reflash...maybe more.
We will have to wait and see how it does on a tight technical track (which VIR is not). From a track perspective even at $57k the S209 will get completely destroyed by many other cars. It's cool that Subaru is building it and people like you are willing to buy it. I just don't see the value. I would rather have a 2019/2020 STIand a huge pile of money leftover for a dedicated track car.
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Old 01-21-2019, 08:43 PM   #52
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The point is engineers gone wild.


Here boys, have fun. Just keep it street legal, US friendly and under $X0,000.
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Old 01-21-2019, 09:34 PM   #53
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We will have to wait and see how it does on a tight technical track (which VIR is not). From a track perspective even at $57k the S209 will get completely destroyed by many other cars. It's cool that Subaru is building it and people like you are willing to buy it. I just don't see the value. I would rather have a 2019/2020 STIand a huge pile of money leftover for a dedicated track car.
Its 10 seconds faster than the current base gen STI that was last tested....that is way beyond what the Focus RS has put over the STI before in any track test and way more than the Civic Type R....so I dont know that any track is going to be able to make up that difference. As for getting completely destroyed by other brand new 2019 cars in the 57,000 range, we'll have to wait and see. Also dont forget this thing is seriously detuned from the factory by keeping the 2 cat downpipe, and this car already comes with mods way beyond stage 2...a 800-1100 downpipe and tune will probably put it at or maybe even over 400 horsepower. I mean who puts a built block bigger turbo bigger injectors and pump and intake mods and keeps the stock downpipe? No one. I'm surprised more people aren't talking about that and how much horsepower is being corked up.
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:56 PM   #54
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So, how's that 2019 Focus RS?
Is that supposed to be a burn or something, because if so you fail at it.

The RS has always been a small model run of 2 years. They build them for about 2 years and thats that until the next gen. There was never going to be a 2019 RS, we knew this in 2016. Its FPs MO for the car/model.

Go back to digging deep to defend booby.
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:13 AM   #55
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Calm down bro. STI is Tom Brady for basically every reason.
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:19 AM   #56
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Its 10 seconds faster than the current base gen STI that was last tested....that is way beyond what the Focus RS has put over the STI before in any track test and way more than the Civic Type R....so I dont know that any track is going to be able to make up that difference. As for getting completely destroyed by other brand new 2019 cars in the 57,000 range, we'll have to wait and see. Also dont forget this thing is seriously detuned from the factory by keeping the 2 cat downpipe, and this car already comes with mods way beyond stage 2...a 800-1100 downpipe and tune will probably put it at or maybe even over 400 horsepower. I mean who puts a built block bigger turbo bigger injectors and pump and intake mods and keeps the stock downpipe? No one. I'm surprised more people aren't talking about that and how much horsepower is being corked up.
We don't need to wait and see. A Corvette Grand Sport is $56K and change brand new. Camaro ZL1's can be found for high $50's. Hell Camaro SS1LE's are low to mid $30K cars and are faster as well as PP2 Mustang GT. You can get a 700 mustang GT with PP2 for $50's. Your also talking GT350 money (used R), Camaro ZL1 1LE ballpark, etc.

This is where the $60k STI completely falls apart once you start talking track. There are just far too many cars available that will utterly destroy it for the same money or less.
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:30 AM   #57
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I made a similar comment in another thread, but I take it back. Heck, if a Subaru fanboi wants to spend $60k on a car like that - all the power to him. Fortunately there are objectively better options at the price, but again, everyone is free to blow their $$$ on $60k Subarus. Or hookers.
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:54 AM   #58
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$60k hooker?! They better be Margot Robbie or Chris Hemsworth, muhfuggah!
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:04 AM   #59
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Calm down bro. STI is Tom Brady for basically every reason.
Comparing Tom to that car? Sacrilegious.
Tom got his first ring in what, 2001? And he's changed with the times in the form of diet and exercise. The Sti has just got fatter and heavier.

Go Patriots/TB12! Get that 6th ring Tom!
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:30 AM   #60
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Comparing Tom to that car? Sacrilegious.
Tom got his first ring in what, 2001? And he's changed with the times in the form of diet and exercise. The Sti has just got fatter and heavier.

Go Patriots/TB12! Get that 6th ring Tom!
Yet, faster and better.....

I think that "burn" you are referring to is about it's HP ratings. 341 with the water spray; but, isn't the Focus RS's 350 only in certain conditions as well? Doesn't really matter; but, it was brought up and then a counter point given.



I'll edit the "better" part to individual preference. I was thinking the available tech in it as well as an overall better. Then realized who I was talking to and know many here don't care for all that and don't think that makes it "better". Many do however. And before you say "defend, defend, defend", I would want that in ANY car I would want.

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Old 01-22-2019, 10:50 PM   #61
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Yet, faster and better.....

I think that "burn" you are referring to is about it's HP ratings. 341 with the water spray; but, isn't the Focus RS's 350 only in certain conditions as well? Doesn't really matter; but, it was brought up and then a counter point given.



I'll edit the "better" part to individual preference. I was thinking the available tech in it as well as an overall better. Then realized who I was talking to and know many here don't care for all that and don't think that makes it "better". Many do however. And before you say "defend, defend, defend", I would want that in ANY car I would want.

If the water spray is doing anything its not really "adding" horsepower, it would be taking a heat soak situation away from the intercooler and allowing the engine to make the power its designed to be capable of anyway.


What is more important is the 77 degree reported ambient temperature that the horsepower was produced at, which also tells that the intercooler spray if its making a difference, is pointing to another scenario where if say the ambient air temp is say...60 degrees so the intercooler would have 16 degree cooler air going through it so should make the engine produce MORE than 341 horsepower, 50 degree ambient air going through it even more etc etc.....possible it will put out 350 with colder air and the spray. So there s that.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:18 PM   #62
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We don't need to wait and see. A Corvette Grand Sport is $56K and change brand new. Camaro ZL1's can be found for high $50's. Hell Camaro SS1LE's are low to mid $30K cars and are faster as well as PP2 Mustang GT. You can get a 700 mustang GT with PP2 for $50's. Your also talking GT350 money (used R), Camaro ZL1 1LE ballpark, etc.

This is where the $60k STI completely falls apart once you start talking track. There are just far too many cars available that will utterly destroy it for the same money or less.
True enough - if track was the ONLY consideration. None of those other cars come with 4 doors or would be considered spacious enough to take on a family trip to Tahoe in the winter..

Not saying I'd buy an S209, or that it's the best track car ever, but as someone said - it's a swiss army knife. If you want a car that can tackle deep snow with 5 people and luggage one day and do a pretty good run around a track the next with only change of tires, none of those other cars are in the running..
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Old 01-23-2019, 06:49 PM   #63
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^^^^^Good post. Subaru is targeting other allwheel drive performance sedans in the price point. Given that the S209 is probably going to MSRP between 55-57 G's the twin turbo 464 horsepower cadillac ATS-V is the benchmark for their engineering of the S209 to compete, corvettes camaros and mustangs are not really relevant no matter what the price. They simply aren't in the same category or even demographic. Buyers of corvettes and mustangs and camaro's aren't looking at the price of an STI(as the base STI's are often less expensive), whether it be an S209 RA, or Limited, and then saying nahhhhhh….I'll get a vette instead. These buyers were set on a vette or camaro or mustang anyway.


The S209 engine is a nice jump though over what has previously been in the STI....the pistons aren't only forged but they are lighter, along with lighter connecting rods...so this car will probably have a somewhat extended RPM range and it will most likely respond really really well to a 3" downpipe and tune. Cant even call that stage 2 on this car though LOL....since it is way beyond stage 2 stock. Built block bigger turbo bigger injectors and fuel pump etc etc.. Should make 400 horsepower with an aggressive tune with a 3" downpipe with no downsides...and will probably smash an ATS-V.

BTW.....the ATS-V only gets 16/23 MPG....because twin turbo LOL.
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:39 PM   #64
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^^^^^Good post. Subaru is targeting other allwheel drive performance sedans in the price point. Given that the S209 is probably going to MSRP between 55-57 G's the twin turbo 464 horsepower cadillac ATS-V is the benchmark for their engineering of the S209 to compete, corvettes camaros and mustangs are not really relevant no matter what the price. They simply aren't in the same category or even demographic. Buyers of corvettes and mustangs and camaro's aren't looking at the price of an STI(as the base STI's are often less expensive), whether it be an S209 RA, or Limited, and then saying nahhhhhh.I'll get a vette instead. These buyers were set on a vette or camaro or mustang anyway.


The S209 engine is a nice jump though over what has previously been in the STI....the pistons aren't only forged but they are lighter, along with lighter connecting rods...so this car will probably have a somewhat extended RPM range and it will most likely respond really really well to a 3" downpipe and tune. Cant even call that stage 2 on this car though LOL....since it is way beyond stage 2 stock. Built block bigger turbo bigger injectors and fuel pump etc etc.. Should make 400 horsepower with an aggressive tune with a 3" downpipe with no downsides...and will probably smash an ATS-V.

BTW.....the ATS-V only gets 16/23 MPG....because twin turbo LOL.
First of all nobody pays MSRP on an ATS-V. If you shop smart you can find them for well $5-10K off MSRP without any issues. Sometimes more. And CPO ones too. Second of all a stage 1 ATS-V can make 600hp. Probably looking at $2K with parts and a tune. It's a relevant once you start modding cars. $60K range gets you a used GTR too if you need AWD with a backseat.
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:50 PM   #65
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First of all nobody pays MSRP on an ATS-V. If you shop smart you can find them for well $5-10K off MSRP without any issues. Sometimes more. And CPO ones too. Second of all a stage 1 ATS-V can make 600hp. Probably looking at $2K with parts and a tune. It's a relevant once you start modding cars. $60K range gets you a used GTR too if you need AWD with a backseat.
Sure, all valid points. Except - GTR doesn't have 4 doors, and ATS-V might as well be a Camaro - rear seats are unusable.

While the interior is a significant step down in the STI, I would say it's really more an S4 / C43 / 340xi competitor. Now, IMHO, none of those are feasible as something you can own / mod out of warranty unless you're flush with cash, but as a straight non-modified lease, those are nicer cars, but it might cost a decent amount more as well. I also don't know how the STI compares to S4 / C43 / 340xi on the track, but I'll bet it holds its own. In fact, 340xi/C43 probably have less rear legroom as well. S4 is ok.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:49 PM   #66
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First of all nobody pays MSRP on an ATS-V. If you shop smart you can find them for well $5-10K off MSRP without any issues. Sometimes more. And CPO ones too. Second of all a stage 1 ATS-V can make 600hp. Probably looking at $2K with parts and a tune. It's a relevant once you start modding cars. $60K range gets you a used GTR too if you need AWD with a backseat.
Honestly I find it somewhat comical when the price point for a brand new warrantied factory prepped/modified STI is chastised and then it is compared to USED modified (probably beat on and worn) performance cars in the same price range are compared to it LOL.....let alone ones that aren't even in the same layout....because if someone wants an STI,,,a brand new S209 with a warranty at 57,000 is MUCH more appealing than a GM 4 door rear drive used car at the same price. That is why I keep saying the price isnt the issue...what is more important is what the buyer wants. Honestly I wouldnt want a corvette, and I get that they are relatively cheap for the performance. A GTR is a better argument but still wouldnt pay the same for a used one over an brand new S209. Honestly its not an advantage to pay the same price for a USED performance car relative to a car like a brand new S209. A deal like that has ZERO appeal to me....and is why I previously brought up the availability of 05-06 GTO's with under 100,000 miles available for around 10,000...because when the price is 4-5 times less for comparable performance and modability, the used vs new makes a bit more sense....at least to me anyway a used performance car will have to be many thousands less...I mean like at least half the price of a brand new warrantied performance car that has a ton of potential and factory performance packages.

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Old 01-24-2019, 07:19 AM   #67
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ATS-V might as well be a Camaro - rear seats are unusable.
How large are you? I can fit myself behind myself in an ATS-V sedan; I'm 5'-10" 180lbs. The ATS-V has about the same rear passenger room as the current gen WRX/STi.
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:55 AM   #68
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How large are you? I can fit myself behind myself in an ATS-V sedan; I'm 5'-10" 180lbs. The ATS-V has about the same rear passenger room as the current gen WRX/STi.
Hey, that's great for you - wish it worked for me. I'm 6'1", all legs. Every car I've ever owned, seat has been all the way back, wishing it would go further. I had to modify my '84 Jetta GLI (first car) to add 1/2" of adjustment to the seat, and my right knee still got sore after rush hour traffic.. I've sat in a Mk7 Golf R, and while THAT seat goes back further than I need (I think), it leaves like 3 inches in the back.

So, putting the seat all the way to the back is my benchmark - can my kids still sit behind me? Note: my just-turned-12 year old daughter is ~5'5"-5'6", may end up at 5'10"-5'11", and the younger one at one point was taller than her at the same age.. Sure, they could SQUEEZE back there, but I don't want a car where they are punished and complain every time they have to get into it - otherwise, we'll end up taking the minivan every time.



That doesn't exactly inspire confidence..

And, from:
https://www.motor1.com/reviews/17770...c-ats-v-sedan/

...
"Smallest of the smalls. The ATS-V is a small car, a compact car to be specific. But even among its competitive set, its the wee-est of the bunch. Its two closest competitors, the BMW M3 and Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG, are larger in nearly every dimension. Rear passengers, in particular, are punished in the ATS-V, with rear leg and headroom down by a couple of inches compared to the Germans." After getting the "no-go" from the M3, the odds aren't good.

We sat in a CTS-V last year, and for some reason they made that smaller than the previous gen, and it was tight, and my family didn't like the layout / cramped feeling. No way the ATS-V is going to be better. We drove a previous gen CTS-V-sport, and I almost wish I'd bought it..

We've sat in an STI several times and they were always fine with it. Also liked the Chevy SS and Charger SRT, but I'm not sure I'm ready to go from "fast AWD" to "RWD bruiser".

I have no problem admitting that my family may not be 100% logical, but I'm not even going to THINK about an ATS-V being a possibility on a 2-hour road trip. Charger would have no problems. They like grandma's 2010 Legacy, but 2010-2012 Legacy GTs are rarer than hen's teeth.. STI SHOULD be ok based on several previous test drives, although that data is a year old by now and we will definitely have to double check.
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:27 PM   #69
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Hey, that's great for you - wish it worked for me. I'm 6'1", all legs. Every car I've ever owned, seat has been all the way back, wishing it would go further. I had to modify my '84 Jetta GLI (first car) to add 1/2" of adjustment to the seat, and my right knee still got sore after rush hour traffic.. I've sat in a Mk7 Golf R, and while THAT seat goes back further than I need (I think), it leaves like 3 inches in the back.

So, putting the seat all the way to the back is my benchmark - can my kids still sit behind me? Note: my just-turned-12 year old daughter is ~5'5"-5'6", may end up at 5'10"-5'11", and the younger one at one point was taller than her at the same age.. Sure, they could SQUEEZE back there, but I don't want a car where they are punished and complain every time they have to get into it - otherwise, we'll end up taking the minivan every time.



That doesn't exactly inspire confidence..

And, from:
https://www.motor1.com/reviews/17770...c-ats-v-sedan/

...
"Smallest of the smalls. The ATS-V is a small car, a compact car to be specific. But even among its competitive set, its the wee-est of the bunch. Its two closest competitors, the BMW M3 and Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG, are larger in nearly every dimension. Rear passengers, in particular, are punished in the ATS-V, with rear leg and headroom down by a couple of inches compared to the Germans." After getting the "no-go" from the M3, the odds aren't good.

We sat in a CTS-V last year, and for some reason they made that smaller than the previous gen, and it was tight, and my family didn't like the layout / cramped feeling. No way the ATS-V is going to be better. We drove a previous gen CTS-V-sport, and I almost wish I'd bought it..

We've sat in an STI several times and they were always fine with it. Also liked the Chevy SS and Charger SRT, but I'm not sure I'm ready to go from "fast AWD" to "RWD bruiser".

I have no problem admitting that my family may not be 100% logical, but I'm not even going to THINK about an ATS-V being a possibility on a 2-hour road trip. Charger would have no problems. They like grandma's 2010 Legacy, but 2010-2012 Legacy GTs are rarer than hen's teeth.. STI SHOULD be ok based on several previous test drives, although that data is a year old by now and we will definitely have to double check.
I wish you luck in your search; it seems you are pretty much stuck with a mid-size or full-size if you want four doors, and if you want AWD your choices are limited further, especially if you want performance. Acura? Lexus LS?
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:32 PM   #70
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I wish you luck in your search; it seems you are pretty much stuck with a mid-size or full-size if you want four doors, and if you want AWD your choices are limited further, especially if you want performance. Acura? Lexus LS?
Thanks. That's why I'm constantly going back and forth between what I'm willing to give up. I'd LOVE another LGT wagon with a bit newer 5EAT/7EAT - ideally ZF 8 speed. The Levorg is partly that, but I think it's CVT only? I've heard the CVT in the WRX isn't too bad, just can't hold much more than stock power...
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:35 PM   #71
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Thanks. That's why I'm constantly going back and forth between what I'm willing to give up. I'd LOVE another LGT wagon with a bit newer 5EAT/7EAT - ideally ZF 8 speed. The Levorg is partly that, but I think it's CVT only? I've heard the CVT in the WRX isn't too bad, just can't hold much more than stock power...
Honestly if you look at size and interior room, the current gen WRX is a Legacy GT. It's the exact same size sedan.

Also, the CVT guys seem to have the CVT issues under control. While I'm dubious about how good the WRX's CVT is, it seems that some manual-only guys have really enjoyed theirs tuned with the addition of a CVT cooler.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:54 PM   #72
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Honestly if you look at size and interior room, the current gen WRX is a Legacy GT. It's the exact same size sedan.

Also, the CVT guys seem to have the CVT issues under control. While I'm dubious about how good the WRX's CVT is, it seems that some manual-only guys have really enjoyed theirs tuned with the addition of a CVT cooler.
Yeah, I know they're about the same size.. That's why I'm interested :-)

So with a CVT cooler, it can be tuned > 300 chp? I heard that around 300 chp was the limit of the stock CVT.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:57 PM   #73
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Yeah, I know they're about the same size.. That's why I'm interested :-)

So with a CVT cooler, it can be tuned > 300 chp? I heard that around 300 chp was the limit of the stock CVT.
Bellipotens would be the guy on here to talk to about that, but it's about torque not bhp.
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Old 01-24-2019, 02:44 PM   #74
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I really do feel sorry for manufacturers at times. BMW makes the M3 big with plenty of room and people hate on it for being big and bloated. Cadillac makes the ATS smaller, lighter, nimbler and it gets hated on for not being big enough.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:12 PM   #75
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I really do feel sorry for manufacturers at times. BMW makes the M3 big with plenty of room and people hate on it for being big and bloated. Cadillac makes the ATS smaller, lighter, nimbler and it gets hated on for not being big enough.
For sure.. On the flip side - that's the problem with being a bit older and having a BIT more cash. Not enough to drive an M5 without a care.. Enough to NOT want to drive a Camry.. The more I think about it, the more particular I get.. My wife would tell you, it's driving her almost as nuts as me

Edit: and since the LGT just keeps rambling on, I'm in no hurry. I don't want to force the issue only to regret it later. That's why I'm thinking if I get a good deal an on STI and really hate it, I can probably resell in a year or two for nearly the same cash..
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