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Old 02-18-2019, 07:44 PM   #201
TheViking85
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But those are the breaks. We don’t live in some utopia/dystopia where the state raises kids in identical conditions from infancy to majority, for better or worse. The question here is of what people do as adults once they’re supposed to be adulting.
But surely you can accept that ones ability to adult is heavily predicated on your upbringing?

There's a reason both wealth and poverty tends to be multi-generational. If you're born to parents with little financial acumen, who possibly work multiple jobs, or are underemployed, poor schools and challenging local employment opportunities, can you realistically expect to attain that knowledge?
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:52 PM   #202
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Alex Keaton overcame his parents' hippie influence.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:59 PM   #203
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Alex Keaton overcame his parents' hippie influence.
Dispite his Roger Stone-like love or Richard Nixon.

......and you know probably only you and me get all that, right?
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:16 PM   #204
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But surely you can accept that ones ability to adult is heavily predicated on your upbringing?

There's a reason both wealth and poverty tends to be multi-generational. If you're born to parents with little financial acumen, who possibly work multiple jobs, or are underemployed, poor schools and challenging local employment opportunities, can you realistically expect to attain that knowledge?
I could write 10,000 words on how irresponsible my parents are, and continue to be, with money + how much negative impact it has had on me.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:21 PM   #205
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But surely you can accept that ones ability to adult is heavily predicated on your upbringing?

There's a reason both wealth and poverty tends to be multi-generational. If you're born to parents with little financial acumen, who possibly work multiple jobs, or are underemployed, poor schools and challenging local employment opportunities, can you realistically expect to attain that knowledge?
If your parents are **** then you are at a disadvantage. I would say nobody would argue that but surely some **** is going to do it.

As for wealth and poverty spanning generations, I don't think that's predicated by "wealth and poverty" alone. I find that has more to do more with your previous assessment about the upbringing.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:31 PM   #206
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I definitely recognize it.

My parents scrimped for me and my sister to go to a private school even as my mom pushed her wire shopping cart to Woolworth’s to shop for items on sale. We were fortunate enough to grow up in a stable, two parent household with no food or housing insecurity. And then there’s Integra’s implied point that academic performance is in large point an expression of what genetics one’s parents passed down.

So while I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I was at least born with the potential to walk along the knife’s edge, if you will.

But those are the breaks. We don’t live in some utopia/dystopia where the state raises kids in identical conditions from infancy to majority, for better or worse. The question here is of what people do as adults once they’re supposed to be adulting.

I ****ing knew it.

HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT THE RICH KID LIVING IN A STABLE!
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:32 PM   #207
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But surely you can accept that ones ability to adult is heavily predicated on your upbringing?



There's a reason both wealth and poverty tends to be multi-generational. If you're born to parents with little financial acumen, who possibly work multiple jobs, or are underemployed, poor schools and challenging local employment opportunities, can you realistically expect to attain that knowledge?

The path that one is likely to follow with the least resistance is heavily influenced by one’s upbringing: parents (both genetics/environment), community, schools. But one can move up or down the ladder as well: overdoses are egalitarian, and on the flip side one of my med school classmates was a former high school dropout who had been homeless for a stretch.

Wherever one ends up, however, I argue that it’s possible to make ends meet. Low income types are supported by the EITC, food stamps, housing assistance, Saver’s Credit, Medicaid, etc. and things like ACA subsidies even extend to well above the poverty line. Those backstops are insufficient if one pays usurious interest rates at the corner payday loan place, pays 25% for a car that’s soon repossessed at the buy here/pay here lot on the other corner, and engages in some stupid status signaling on top of that to boot, whether that’s manifest as a 15 year old BMW or buying a side by side on credit.

So I support Bernie/Warren style things like regulating payday lenders... but the high interest car mavens of the world make the valid point that they’re the lender of last resort for people who don’t even meet the Mitsubishi/Nissan subprime standards. (This would be where I’d say to take the bus as one’s time is clearly not of great value here, but we’ve already been down that road.) Can’t save everyone from themself.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:33 PM   #208
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Dispite his Roger Stone-like love or Richard Nixon.

......and you know probably only you and me get all that, right?
Hey, I too grew up in that generation.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:37 PM   #209
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as i said earlier, i'm not quite oaycheck to paycheck, but not far from it either. wehave a small savings. but yes, we choose to cut back in a few areas. That's why i still daily my 99 outback or my '04 grand caravan. They're not so pretty anymore, but they get the job done. our only car loan is for our '08 town and country...
I'm specifically referring to people who choose to pay monthly for a 3/5 series BMW and must share an apartment with a roommate in order to stay afloat. For those people, the image of success or social status trumps all else.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:49 PM   #210
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And then there’s Integra’s implied point that academic performance is in large point an expression of what genetics one’s parents passed down.
I don't think he was floating racist tropes, you probably shouldn't either.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:03 PM   #211
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The path that one is likely to follow with the least resistance is heavily influenced by one’s upbringing: parents (both genetics/environment), community, schools. But one can move up or down the ladder as well: overdoses are egalitarian, and on the flip side one of my med school classmates was a former high school dropout who had been homeless for a stretch.

Wherever one ends up, however, I argue that it’s possible to make ends meet. Low income types are supported by the EITC, food stamps, housing assistance, Saver’s Credit, Medicaid, etc. and things like ACA subsidies even extend to well above the poverty line. Those backstops are insufficient if one pays usurious interest rates at the corner payday loan place, pays 25% for a car that’s soon repossessed at the buy here/pay here lot on the other corner, and engages in some stupid status signaling on top of that to boot, whether that’s manifest as a 15 year old BMW or buying a side by side on credit.

So I support Bernie/Warren style things like regulating payday lenders... but the high interest car mavens of the world make the valid point that they’re the lender of last resort for people who don’t even meet the Mitsubishi/Nissan subprime standards. (This would be where I’d say to take the bus as one’s time is clearly not of great value here, but we’ve already been down that road.) Can’t save everyone from themself.
Low income types are also under constant attack by half of this country on the kind of assistance programs you are detailing here. The poor are demonized as being takers instead of makers. I see these attitudes in my own family, and it's insanely frustrating.

One can move up the ladder, sure, but at this point there are institutional policies in place actively preventing it. Some tied to race and even more tied to class.

"Just take the bus" doesn't work for anyone who lives more than 10 - 25 miles outside of a major metropolitan area, which again, is more of America than what you've been exposed to.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:10 PM   #212
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I don't think he was floating racist tropes, you probably shouldn't either.

Where did I mention race? Projecting now?

IQ has a genetic component, modulated by environment when growing up, and our natural tendency to pick mates of similar social strata and educational status probably reinforces this hereditability further.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:15 PM   #213
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Low income types are also under constant attack by half of this country on the kind of assistance programs you are detailing here. The poor are demonized as being takers instead of makers. I see these attitudes in my own family, and it's insanely frustrating.



One can move up the ladder, sure, but at this point there are institutional policies in place actively preventing it. Some tied to race and even more tied to class.



"Just take the bus" doesn't work for anyone who lives more than 10 - 25 miles outside of a major metropolitan area, which again, is more of America than what you've been exposed to.

I agree that the demonization of public assistance is a problem. I haven’t experienced this firsthand but Hillbilly Elegy spoke to this: whole communities on said assistance yet resentful of it. Learned helplessness.

What policies are you referring to that limit mobility? Snobbishness when reviewing resumes?

I’ve lived in small towns, too, like Coos Bay, Oregon. Those places usually come with a sufficiently lower cost of living to allow one to get a car, even if economically most people there would be better if they picked up, moved to a big city with better job prospects, and took the bus there.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:20 PM   #214
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The path that one is likely to follow with the least resistance is heavily influenced by one’s upbringing: parents (both genetics/environment), community, schools.
My father’s lectures from my youth still echo in my mind. His words drove me to get-er-done. After my father’s passing, I watched my mother scrape and claw to make the ends. It had an impact. She showed me how. I am thankful for their contribution.

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But one can move up or down the ladder as well: overdoses are egalitarian, and on the flip side one of my med school classmates was a former high school dropout who had been homeless for a stretch.
Exceptional people have the ability to overcome large obstacles. They are … the exception.

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Low income types are supported by the EITC, food stamps, housing assistance, Saver’s Credit, Medicaid, etc. and things like ACA subsidies even extend to well above the poverty line.
If it were up to me, I would add to that list free birth control, abortions and sterilization.

Whether it all helps or not, I think these programs are absolutely necessary. You want to provide for those that will be able to use this little bit of help to better themselves and hopefully generations down the line. The ones that just take advantage without trying harder, well help them too. Just the cost of trying to make things better. No effort = no results.

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Can’t save everyone from themself.
We should still try. The effort may reach those that want saving.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:39 PM   #215
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I agree that the demonization of public assistance is a problem. I haven’t experienced this firsthand but Hillbilly Elegy spoke to this: whole communities on said assistance yet resentful of it. Learned helplessness.

What policies are you referring to that limit mobility? Snobbishness when reviewing resumes?

I’ve lived in small towns, too, like Coos Bay, Oregon. Those places usually come with a sufficiently lower cost of living to allow one to get a car, even if economically most people there would be better if they picked up, moved to a big city with better job prospects, and took the bus there.
What industry is in Coos Bay? Does it still exist?

My parents still live in Northern Cambria, PA

2000 census
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The median income for a household in the borough was $24,655, and the median income for a family was $29,917. Males had a median income of $27,214 versus $17,546 for females. The per capita income for the borough was $13,129. About 15.4% of families and 17.7% of the population were below the poverty line, including 29.1% of those under age 18 and 7.4% of those age 65 or over.
Let's say you had a house and family in Northern Cambria and lost your job. Now you want that family to pick up and move to a bigger city, maybe Pittsburgh. The Zillow home value index is about 300% higher in the Pittsburgh area. Mobility is a huge problem in this country and it can't be discounted.

Forget just the financials, may of these families are also caring for elderly family members.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:42 PM   #216
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Coos Bay is a lumber town. That’s dying but not dead. Now there’s a casino and service industries, as far as I can tell.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:44 PM   #217
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There's nothing left in rural PA except heroin. This is happening to lots of towns in the northeast, basically along the whole span of Appalachia.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:51 PM   #218
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What industry is in Coos Bay? Does it still exist?

My parents still live in Northern Cambria, PA

2000 census


Let's say you had a house and family in Northern Cambria and lost your job. Now you want that family to pick up and move to a bigger city, maybe Pittsburgh. The Zillow home value index is about 300% higher in the Pittsburgh area. Mobility is a huge problem in this country and it can't be discounted.

Forget just the financials, may of these families are also caring for elderly family members.
We grew up in the same town, apparently.

Relevant reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ocracy/559130/
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:11 PM   #219
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We grew up in the same town, apparently.

Relevant reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ocracy/559130/
For sure, I knew we came from similar backgrounds.

That's a good article. It's something I've struggled with recently about where I'm from and where I am now, but not actually struggling because my wife and I are 5%'ers when you look at combined income - largely because of...you guessed it...help from parents to get us where we are now.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:23 PM   #220
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The path that one is likely to follow with the least resistance is heavily influenced by one’s upbringing: parents (both genetics/environment), community, schools. But one can move up or down the ladder as well: overdoses are egalitarian, and on the flip side one of my med school classmates was a former high school dropout who had been homeless for a stretch.

Wherever one ends up, however, I argue that it’s possible to make ends meet. Low income types are supported by the EITC, food stamps, housing assistance, Saver’s Credit, Medicaid, etc. and things like ACA subsidies even extend to well above the poverty line. Those backstops are insufficient if one pays usurious interest rates at the corner payday loan place, pays 25% for a car that’s soon repossessed at the buy here/pay here lot on the other corner, and engages in some stupid status signaling on top of that to boot, whether that’s manifest as a 15 year old BMW or buying a side by side on credit.

So I support Bernie/Warren style things like regulating payday lenders... but the high interest car mavens of the world make the valid point that they’re the lender of last resort for people who don’t even meet the Mitsubishi/Nissan subprime standards. (This would be where I’d say to take the bus as one’s time is clearly not of great value here, but we’ve already been down that road.) Can’t save everyone from themself.
A lot of people like to argue about things they know nothing about. It's as american as apple pie but also an apparent need humanity has. Everyone has all of the answers but do little to help their brothers to the promised lands of their limited vision based on nothing. We swing phase to phase knowing we have all of the answers but we just let a tanned scrotum dick taint our day to day lives because we're all too busying burdened with knowing everything we do nothing from the exhaustion of just knowing all of it. Tomorrow after a nice sleep, I will lead us all to the land I promise you or not, I may be busy with lunch or some other ****.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:32 PM   #221
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We grew up in the same town, apparently.



Relevant reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ocracy/559130/

Good article. Much of it is like Coming Apart with some added commentary. See Super ZIPs in Coming Apart, for instance.

Such self loathing from the author, though. He frames everything in terms of exclusion, even for things very much not zero sum. His discussion on marriage rates comes to mind: through what mechanism is the 9.9% to blame for this? richde? You seem good at this guilt-assignment game.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:14 PM   #222
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Good article. Much of it is like Coming Apart with some added commentary. See Super ZIPs in Coming Apart, for instance.

Such self loathing from the author, though. He frames everything in terms of exclusion, even for things very much not zero sum. His discussion on marriage rates comes to mind: through what mechanism is the 9.9% to blame for this? richde? You seem good at this guilt-assignment game.
I didn’t read that as a point of blame... more of a result. I don’t get bent out of shape when my wife brings home a bunch of unnecessary clothes nor her when I decide I need a new 4 figure bicycle. That occasional spending doesn’t reroute the ship. Poor money management and tight finances probably lead to fights that result in divorce and even tighter finances.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:32 PM   #223
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For sure, I knew we came from similar backgrounds.

That's a good article. It's something I've struggled with recently about where I'm from and where I am now, but not actually struggling because my wife and I are 5%'ers when you look at combined income - largely because of...you guessed it...help from parents to get us where we are now.
Definitely. I’m well aware of how fortunate I’ve been. My mother made a snide comment about someone a few months back and how she pulled herself up by her bootstraps. She did. Her mom died gen she was 10, they were dirt poor, youngest of 7, worked her way through nursing school, NP school, has 3 sons that are all doing well, still married 38 years later. I pointed out that while she had an insanely ****ty start, he oldest brother took her in when she was 14 to get her out of her dad’s house, she married a hardworking concrete finisher that built their first house and paid it off just after she finished nursing school, her boys never had major health issues and didn’t make critical errors in HS (teen pregnancy is extremely frequent where I grew up), her sons got academic scholarships, finished our degrees, one went to med school, married sane women, had healthy granddaughters. Not taking anything away from her achievements, but things really fell into place from about 1980 onward for her through some mixture of luck and grit. It doesn’t take much bad luck to derail someone and growing up where I did but in a stable family let me see how fortunate I’ve been... through dumb luck or otherwise.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:36 PM   #224
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I wonder how many people here know someone that was truly "dirt poor?"

I went to school with some of those kids growing up. They came to school dirty, got free lunch, and lived in what most people would consider a shack.

They got picked on endlessly...

If you don't think the odds are stacked to be almost insurmountable for someone like that...
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:05 AM   #225
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As for wealth and poverty spanning generations, I don't think that's predicated by "wealth and poverty" alone. I find that has more to do more with your previous assessment about the upbringing.
I probably could have clarified my point here.

Wealth and Poverty is multi-generational, specifically because of the multi-generational knowledge, or lack thereof being transferred from parents to children, so on and so forth.

Children of well off or otherwise highly resourceful parents benefit from immeasurable benefits from more engaged parenting, better home education, generally more stable homes, lower levels of domestic abuse, no food insecurity (which has been clearly proven to seriously hinder learning performance) so on, so forth. Children who grow up in poverty often lack one or more of these factors, while upward mobility is possible, every statistic there is, shows it's significantly less common than I think most people are aware of.

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The path that one is likely to follow with the least resistance is heavily influenced by one's upbringing: parents (both genetics/environment), community, schools. But one can move up or down the ladder as well: overdoses are egalitarian, and on the flip side one of my med school classmates was a former high school dropout who had been homeless for a stretch.
Possible? Of course. Probable? Not particularly.

If the primary topic of discussion here is a hypothetical household making middle to upper middle class income yet live paycheck to paycheck, then yes, in many of those cases, lack of personal responsibility may very well play a part.

But I still maintain the position that resolving poverty, underemployment and the systemic challenges faced in this country will largely tackle the issues in the middle class, as a lot of the things you can implement will have positive impacts across the board.

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Wherever one ends up, however, I argue that it's possible to make ends meet. Low income types are supported by the EITC, food stamps, housing assistance, Saver's Credit, Medicaid, etc. and things like ACA subsidies even extend to well above the poverty line. Those backstops are insufficient if one pays usurious interest rates at the corner payday loan place, pays 25% for a car that's soon repossessed at the buy here/pay here lot on the other corner, and engages in some stupid status signaling on top of that to boot, whether that's manifest as a 15 year old BMW or buying a side by side on credit.

So I support Bernie/Warren style things like regulating payday lenders... but the high interest car mavens of the world make the valid point that they're the lender of last resort for people who don't even meet the Mitsubishi/Nissan subprime standards. (This would be where I'd say to take the bus as one's time is clearly not of great value here, but we've already been down that road.) Can't save everyone from themself.
Most payday loans are not spend on discretionary spending, they pay bills, unexpected expenses, transportation repair etc, and when you live paycheck to paycheck and get stuck in that loan loop, you're trapped.

No, you can't save everyone from themselves, but it's possible to try, and over time, the success rate can be pretty dang high.

Current state is also a waste of resources (people) and money (continued dependence on welfare programs), like most things worth your time or money, the upfront investment cost may be high, but the long term benefits and potential cost savings are profound.
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