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Old 04-05-2019, 06:53 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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New Volkswagen Golf range to be topped by 400bhp R Plus
A source added: “We’re looking at introducing a new ‘halo’ performance model that would offer a level of performance beyond that of the next Golf R.”

The new Golf R Plus has not yet been approved for production, but Autocar has been told that it has the support of VW boss Herbert Diess. If it gets the go-ahead, it is likely to join the VW line-up after the new Golf R goes on sale in 2020, at a price similar to that of the £45,250 RS3.

Highlighting the advanced state of the Golf R Plus development programme, VW officials confirmed that a styling proposal for the variant has already been completed. It features a considerably more aggressive appearance than the standard version of the next Golf R, with broader front wings that, insiders say, have been adopted in combination with a widened front track.

The next-generation Golf will be produced as a five-door only, so both the Golf R and R Plus will be offered in that bodystyle alone.

At the heart of the secret new range-topping Golf is a highly tuned version of the Volkswagen Group’s EA888 petrol engine. In the new Golf R, the Audi-developed turbocharged 2.0-litre unit is planned to deliver around 320bhp. But with a range of power-enhancing measures, the engine could ultimately provide the Golf R Plus with between 380bhp and 400bhp.

Originally a project of Volkswagen’s former head of petrol engine development, Friedrich Eichler, the powered-up four-cylinder was first showcased in the R400 concept with 395bhp and 332lb ft at the 2014 Beijing motor show. That model was closely considered for production.

An even more powerful version of the EA888 with added turbocharger boost pressure and other changes was featured in the Audi Quattro Sport concept, which made its debut at the Geneva motor show in 2014. In that car, it offered 414bhp and 332lb ft of torque.

Both projects were placed on hold due to the Dieselgate emission scandal until VW’s head of development, Frank Welsch, decided to revisit the ideas behind the R400 in 2018.

New developments brought to the engine of the Golf R Plus include a particulate filter. Like the next Golf GTI, though, it is thought to eschew mild-hybrid electric motor boosting.

As with the standard version of the new Golf R, drive is set to be channelled through a standard-fit seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox and a sixth-generation version of VW’s 4Motion four-wheel-drive system. That set-up will now feature fully variable control that constantly alters the amount of drive being sent to the front and rear axles.

The new four-wheel-drive system is likely to operate in combination with VW’s EDS and XDS+ electronic differential locks and a multi-stage ESP stability control system incorporating a drift mode similar to that set to appear on the new A45.

News of the new Golf R Plus comes as VW is preparing to extend the number of R models it offers, starting with the T-Roc R, which made its public debut at the recent Geneva motor show.



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Old 04-05-2019, 07:59 AM   #2
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If they make this car with more rear biasing than their current AWD system allows, and tighten up the handling a smidge, I might have to put this on my radar. Definitely looks more worthy of the $40k+ price tag than the current R does.
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Old 04-05-2019, 08:45 AM   #3
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Wait, the price of an RS3 without the 5 cylinder? No thanks, that's the main reason to buy an RS3.

Put the 5 cylinder in it, and I'd really want one (but still couldn't justify $60k).
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:29 AM   #4
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My reasons for leaving Audi after nearly 20 years are: No manuals transmission and Haldex.

DSG was kind of cool for the first month or so, but it was dull as hell from the driving standpoint. This is nothing but a halo model in the Golf lineup for posers. Interesting but zero interest to own one.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:31 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by TifosiWA View Post
My reasons for leaving Audi after nearly 20 years are: No manuals transmission and Haldex.

DSG was kind of cool for the first month or so, but it was dull as hell from the driving standpoint. This is nothing but a halo model in the Golf lineup for posers. Interesting but zero interest to own one.
My finding this to be true with my M2 and I’ve had it maybe a month. I’m considering selling it and finding a new 2018 manual leftover. The dct paddle shift is insanely fast on my M2 and if it were a track dedicated car, would make sense but the novelty of it has worn off and I’m pretty bored when driving it. My gripe with dct is similar to the P series Tesla’s that I’ve driven. Fun to punch it and go fast but besides that, solid boring.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
If they make this car with more rear biasing than their current AWD system allows, and tighten up the handling a smidge, I might have to put this on my radar. Definitely looks more worthy of the $40k+ price tag than the current R does.
Newsflash.. it has the same rear bias capability as your WRX.

And a quick Haldex tune from UM will likely put it better than that.

And IF this ever came to the us, it would be 50+

Last edited by dwf137; 04-05-2019 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:00 AM   #7
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The M2 Competition exists and is available in manual. 5cyl and manual would make this interesting, but will never happen.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:12 AM   #8
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Wait, the price of an RS3 without the 5 cylinder? No thanks, that's the main reason to buy an RS3.

Put the 5 cylinder in it, and I'd really want one (but still couldn't justify $60k).
Why does the cylinder count matter? The new cayman uses a 4 banger turbo and for people who actually drove them instead of being some “purist” wang (technically if you’re a Porsche purist you wouldn’t buy cayman regardless). If the 4 cylinder works and performs well, who cares?

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The M2 Competition exists and is available in manual. 5cyl and manual would make this interesting, but will never happen.
Hard pass on the BMW M2 Comp. that engine / exhaust note sounds like pure **** and doesn’t really perform better than current M2.

M2 CLI with 6 speed loaded is what I’m after, I think.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Hard pass on the BMW M2 Comp. that engine / exhaust note sounds like pure **** and doesn’t really perform better than current M2.

M2 CLI with 6 speed loaded is what I’m after, I think.
Really? I've driven with some tuned M4's and they are legitimately fast in a straight line, i.e. they look like they would trap 130 or so. I guess if you keep it stock there isn't much benefit to the S-motor. Was never a fan of the turbo M, but if I were looking in that price range, M2C would be the first one I'd try. They ALL sound like ass, so to me a net zero.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:29 AM   #10
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The crappy thing about the 5-cyl is the weight distribution. The weight is directly over the front axles.

Reading the audi forums about this, it seems to eat through front tires rather quickly. Not to mention that it is heavily prone to understeer. You can mod the suspension all you want but weight issues will never go away.

Other than that, I love the sound of that 5-cyl. With an APR tune and exhaust, it sounds exotic and flies like a bullet.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:42 AM   #11
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The understeer on the mqb chassis is real. Front camber is barely adjustable. Camber plates supposedly really make the car perfectly neutral. They're on my short list, just concerned about modding the suspension with the active dampers still under warranty.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:53 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Newsflash.. it has the same rear bias capability as your WRX.

And a quick Haldex tune from UM will likely put it better than that.

And IF this ever came to the us, it would be 50+
Our 2002 WRX would go sideways in the snow at will on the throttle, it was a drifting machine in the snow, but I never had the balls to try it in the rain or dry (it was my wife's car).

Was that cause of the rear LSD?

My rear-drive BMWs were also a blast in snow and rain, but definitely had more pucker moments.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:56 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Why does the cylinder count matter? The new cayman uses a 4 banger turbo and for people who actually drove them instead of being some “purist” wang (technically if you’re a Porsche purist you wouldn’t buy cayman regardless). If the 4 cylinder works and performs well, who cares?

Hard pass on the BMW M2 Comp. that engine / exhaust note sounds like pure **** and doesn’t really perform better than current M2.

M2 CLI with 6 speed loaded is what I’m after, I think.
I think the 5 cylinder sounds amazing, that's the only reason. Hard to find good-sounding fours, maybe from Alfa?

I haven't heard the M2 competition but I don't know why BMW M cars often have terrible sounding exhausts (E46 M3, E92 M3, the V10 M5 etc).
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Old 04-05-2019, 12:00 PM   #14
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I don't see VAG putting a 5 pot in the Golf R. This would make the RS3 a lot less desirable. The EA888 in the Golf R is EXTREMELY tunable and could get around 400hp. Many people are adding downpipes and tuning their R's to that degree with zero issues, including myself. However, I'm not sure how many people will shell out $50+ for a Golf.
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Old 04-05-2019, 12:48 PM   #15
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Wait, what? Didn't Jost Capito (head of VW R division) state the 400hp Golf R project was dead less than a month ago?
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Old 04-05-2019, 12:52 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
If they make this car with more rear biasing than their current AWD system allows, and tighten up the handling a smidge, I might have to put this on my radar. Definitely looks more worthy of the $40k+ price tag than the current R does.
The current Golf-R will do circles around your WRX and your favorite car aka BRZ.
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Old 04-05-2019, 12:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
Our 2002 WRX would go sideways in the snow at will on the throttle, it was a drifting machine in the snow, but I never had the balls to try it in the rain or dry (it was my wife's car).

Was that cause of the rear LSD?

My rear-drive BMWs were also a blast in snow and rain, but definitely had more pucker moments.
Your 2002 did that because of a lack of invasive traction control systems. My 2008 wrx wouldn't step the rear out unless I turned off TC. With TC on it would (dangerously) cut fuel if it sensed that the rear was coming out. My R is identical to my 2009 wrx, minus the fuel cut, it just won't bring the rear around. It won't step out with TC on, but no problem when I turn off TC.

A lot of the problem is lack of camber in the front, resulting in understeer, and people falsely attribute that to "fwd". Higher trim mqb cars like the ttrs and whatnot have more camber. It's easily fixed with either OEM or aftermarket parts. Ive driven an R with camber plates and a rear sway, and that thing was as tall happy as the sti I drove.

It certainly has its shortcomings, don't get me wrong. But most of the "it's too fwd" comments are misguided. The Haldex is a red herring.

Last edited by dwf137; 04-05-2019 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 04-05-2019, 12:59 PM   #18
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dwf is absolutely right. My Golf-R drives like a RWD car and will over steer on throttle when forced. People are watching and listening to too many reviews and not driving the actual car.

I drove the BRZ many times and it sucked... well for me.
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Old 04-05-2019, 01:09 PM   #19
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BMW M cars often have terrible sounding exhausts (E46 M3, E92 M3, the V10 M5 etc).
You crazy!
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Old 04-05-2019, 01:31 PM   #20
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Really? I've driven with some tuned M4's and they are legitimately fast in a straight line, i.e. they look like they would trap 130 or so. I guess if you keep it stock there isn't much benefit to the S-motor. Was never a fan of the turbo M, but if I were looking in that price range, M2C would be the first one I'd try. They ALL sound like ass, so to me a net zero.
M2C is just a detuned m4 engine. They said the reason for destining is that it had heat issues, supposedly. I honestly don’t care about straight line driving, I’m all about the curvy mountain drives and honestly prefer the stock power of the E46 M3 over the M2, I think. The M2 sounds pretty good IMO. M4 engine sounds like vomit.

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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
I think the 5 cylinder sounds amazing, that's the only reason. Hard to find good-sounding fours, maybe from Alfa?

I haven't heard the M2 competition but I don't know why BMW M cars often have terrible sounding exhausts (E46 M3, E92 M3, the V10 M5 etc).
Different strokes I guess. I love the E46 M3 but depending on which exhaust you go with, can make it sound really crappy or amazing. E92 was ok, M5 is meh. Nothing special. But the M3/4, good god it’s awful.
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Old 04-05-2019, 02:15 PM   #21
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Your 2002 did that because of a lack of invasive traction control systems. My 2008 wrx wouldn't step the rear out unless I turned off TC. With TC on it would (dangerously) cut fuel if it sensed that the rear was coming out. My R is identical to my 2009 wrx, minus the fuel cut, it just won't bring the rear around. It won't step out with TC on, but no problem when I turn off TC.

A lot of the problem is lack of camber in the front, resulting in understeer, and people falsely attribute that to "fwd". Higher trim mqb cars like the ttrs and whatnot have more camber. It's easily fixed with either OEM or aftermarket parts. Ive driven an R with camber plates and a rear sway, and that thing was as tall happy as the sti I drove.

It certainly has its shortcomings, don't get me wrong. But most of the "it's too fwd" comments are misguided. The Haldex is a red herring.
Yeah, people tend to think the drive wheels determine oversteer. Drive most rear drive BMWs and find they understeer like pigs. It's the 'safe' tuning.
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Old 04-05-2019, 02:18 PM   #22
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The crappy thing about the 5-cyl is the weight distribution. The weight is directly over the front axles.

Reading the audi forums about this, it seems to eat through front tires rather quickly. Not to mention that it is heavily prone to understeer. You can mod the suspension all you want but weight issues will never go away.

Other than that, I love the sound of that 5-cyl. With an APR tune and exhaust, it sounds exotic and flies like a bullet.
The RS3 didn't do all that well during the last lighting lap but oh my that 2.5 in the Golf R would be bonkers fast. Of course it would be DSG only so that's that.
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Old 04-05-2019, 02:26 PM   #23
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RS3 has reverse stagger tires for...for...
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Newsflash.. it has the same rear bias capability as your WRX.

And a quick Haldex tune from UM will likely put it better than that.

And IF this ever came to the us, it would be 50+
it's a very different system though - FWD/slip-sensative AWD is what the Golf-R is; same "rear bias capability" is not the same as full time AWD that is "50:50"

Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
Our 2002 WRX would go sideways in the snow at will on the throttle, it was a drifting machine in the snow, but I never had the balls to try it in the rain or dry (it was my wife's car).

Was that cause of the rear LSD?

My rear-drive BMWs were also a blast in snow and rain, but definitely had more pucker moments.
part of it is the LSD, part of it is the nature of a 50:50 AWD system and how it works with the chassis (open center diff + front engine = power goes to the wheels that slip, the rears give up quicker in almost all cases except straight line) part of it is the lack of nannies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Your 2002 did that because of a lack of invasive traction control systems. My 2008 wrx wouldn't step the rear out unless I turned off TC. With TC on it would (dangerously) cut fuel if it sensed that the rear was coming out. My R is identical to my 2009 wrx, minus the fuel cut, it just won't bring the rear around. It won't step out with TC on, but no problem when I turn off TC.

A lot of the problem is lack of camber in the front, resulting in understeer, and people falsely attribute that to "fwd". Higher trim mqb cars like the ttrs and whatnot have more camber. It's easily fixed with either OEM or aftermarket parts. Ive driven an R with camber plates and a rear sway, and that thing was as tall happy as the sti I drove.

It certainly has its shortcomings, don't get me wrong. But most of the "it's too fwd" comments are misguided. The Haldex is a red herring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
Yeah, people tend to think the drive wheels determine oversteer. Drive most rear drive BMWs and find they understeer like pigs. It's the 'safe' tuning.
When I got my 06 I noticed it's tendency to understeer at the limit, which could be corrected with throttle and/or setting up the corner with a stab of the brakes, I've since gone through tires, alignments and swaybars to make it neutral leaning towards oversteer when the chassis is pushed to it's limits (22F 24R adjustables); basically all four tires break loose when you hit the cornering grip limit now instead of the front end plow garbage present in just about all modern cars, throttle dictates oversteer or understeer; lack of nannies make it an absolute blast in the snow; keep ripping studs out of my rear tires though.

I can't think of a modern sub-50k car I've driven that didn't understeer when pushed.
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Old 04-05-2019, 04:49 PM   #25
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early rs3's had iron blocks, they are aluminum now and less front biased. and id much rather have the 5 cylinder and have room to tune it than a tuned to the max engine that i already have.
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