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Old 04-09-2019, 10:58 AM   #451
godfather2112
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Every gallon of fuel sold bro. Why do these people conveniently leave that fact out every time these discussions take place? Big oil receive billions in subsidies yet hit billion dollar profit margins every year. It's yet another sign of hypocrisy and why our great nation is trillions of dollars in debt. It also explains the income or wealth disparity in the country.
I don't think subsidies explain income / wealth disparity or play a large part in it but that a discussion best not had here.
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:37 AM   #452
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Explain, no, but another piece of the puzzle as lower income people pay a larger portion of their post tax income in, well, taxes.
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:46 AM   #453
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Every gallon of fuel sold bro. Why do these people conveniently leave that fact out every time these discussions take place? Big oil receive billions in subsidies yet hit billion dollar profit margins every year. It's yet another sign of hypocrisy and why our great nation is trillions of dollars in debt. It also explains the income or wealth disparity in the country.
selective amnesia
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Old 04-09-2019, 12:06 PM   #454
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Think you guys missed my point - designing a business around subsidies / cash flows from public coffers is reprehensible, and it's **** boy's MO. Of course he's not the only one, and of course oil is a hugely corrupt sector - but that has nothing to do with it - the last thing we should want is for the "green" sector to follow that model, and it already has... Tesla is just another symptom of society's lack of intelligence, general ignorance, extreme greed, and vacuous morality.
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Old 04-09-2019, 01:58 PM   #455
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Subsidies and government has kept nearly all car companies in business. Hyundai blurs the line between them. Is it fine Hyundai builds electric cars? Or is it only Tesla? Or is it only Musk? If it’s only Musk, then nothing got to do with the fuel used for propulsion.
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:08 PM   #456
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Think you guys missed my point - designing a business around subsidies / cash flows from public coffers is reprehensible, and it's **** boy's MO. Of course he's not the only one, and of course oil is a hugely corrupt sector - but that has nothing to do with it - the last thing we should want is for the "green" sector to follow that model, and it already has... Tesla is just another symptom of society's lack of intelligence, general ignorance, extreme greed, and vacuous morality.
And you get all this from Fiat/Chrysler (a private company) paying Tesla (also a private company) to avoid paying a fine to the government (not a private company)?
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:28 PM   #457
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Subsidies and government has kept nearly all car companies in business. Hyundai blurs the line between them. Is it fine Hyundai builds electric cars? Or is it only Tesla? Or is it only Musk? If itís only Musk, then nothing got to do with the fuel used for propulsion.
Correct. My problem is with society allowing **** boy to flourish, not necessarily with **** boy himself* - as idiots/scammers will always exist. People need to acknowledge reality and call out scammers instead of glorifying lottery winners and worshiping at the altar of Kardashianism.

*I also don't think Elizabeth Holmes should be Martha Stewarted - the people who gave her money are the ones who are the problem. She was just a crazy little girl born with connections. 50 lashes to the investors, 5 to her and 20 to the Oompa Loompa guy.
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Old 04-09-2019, 03:18 PM   #458
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Think you guys missed my point - designing a business around subsidies / cash flows from public coffers is reprehensible, and it's **** boy's MO. Of course he's not the only one, and of course oil is a hugely corrupt sector - but that has nothing to do with it - the last thing we should want is for the "green" sector to follow that model, and it already has... Tesla is just another symptom of society's lack of intelligence, general ignorance, extreme greed, and vacuous morality.
tell that to China.

It is about giving subsidies to advance technology quickly to make it affordable for the masses.
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Old 04-09-2019, 04:48 PM   #459
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tell that to China.

It is about giving subsidies to advance technology quickly to make it affordable for the masses.
If it were left alone, society could pick and choose what it wants to advance instead of the government deciding "this is the tech that needs to advance because WE think it's best and we'll give you money to agree."

Don't get me wrong, a 35k tesla is great. I hope batteries take a few leaps forward so I can eventually get into them and not have to worry about lifestyle changes to suit going EV and instead just have a car that requires less maintenance with a better power band, but is otherwise the same from a convenience standpoint. I just don't have the audacity to think that, just because I want it and see the benefits EVs could have, means that society NEEDS to think the same way I do and I should encourage that via subsidies.
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:14 PM   #460
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ooohhhh We have a live one.



Just who do you think "The government" is made up of?
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:30 PM   #461
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It’s more nuanced with EV. Lot going on for a relative perceived wash in what’s better for personal transportation. Before it was horse and buggy. Asking people what they think makes sense a gas powered buggy or a horse powered buggy, it was revolutionary. Add in suburban sprawl living and cars made even more sense. Snowball effect with that. EV not so much. So it really takes a lot of effort to get everyone on board. China still has a challenge and they have the means to do so. If the government really wanted full EV attack they’d conjure up gas taxes that doubled the price for a gallon of gas. So far none of that has happened. It’s slow crawl metered progression.

I’m not opposed to EV but I’ll also likely be the last holdout. Less demand for fuel, in theory, cheaper the gas. Yay for me. But I guess if demand drops enough so will refinery output and gas prices go up. We’ll see.
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:25 PM   #462
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Well, at first the Gas powered buggy was worse than the horse as far as price, range and reliability.


wait...that sounds familiar
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:37 PM   #463
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If it were left alone, society could pick and choose what it wants to advance instead of the government deciding "this is the tech that needs to advance because WE think it's best and we'll give you money to agree."
Well, that's also a little nuanced, with government basically deciding what a finite natural resource should be "worth." The fact that a select few individuals and governments think they "own" something that nature created over millions of years, and then get to decide the "price" is the most bat-****-crazy concept. But somehow we all buy into it.
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Old 04-10-2019, 02:12 AM   #464
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Just who do you think "The government" is made up of?
People who have their own brains and ideas that, at best, loosely align to what a majority of people (regardless of the actual societal sway and power those people actually have) who voted desire.

If the views of government actually reflect society if it were left alone, there would be no need for the government, save to enforce unequivocal truths like "murder is bad."

But, that has nothing to do with EVs or tesla, and I'm also fairly certain I saw some area of the site dedicated to political discussion, which I don't even have access to yet. If you want to debate that stuff, go there?

As I said, I hope tesla succeeds. I love their designs, and they're bringing EVs into the limelight, which I think are better than ICEs in nearly every aspect except two of the most important ones (weight and convenience related to battery charge times versus gas refill times).

If they make a 35k tesla without govt credit, it will be fantastic.
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:12 AM   #465
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If they make a 35k tesla without govt credit, it will be fantastic.
You know you can buy the $35k version right now, right? (of course, they'll probably try to up-sell to an SR+ for $39k (?), since it will otherwise be a few months before the SR is shipping).

You also technically don't have to claim the EV tax credit when you do your taxes either, since it only gets your own money back. So boom, 35k Tesla without a .gov credit, right now.
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Old 04-10-2019, 10:36 AM   #466
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Itís more nuanced with EV. Lot going on for a relative perceived wash in whatís better for personal transportation. Before it was horse and buggy. Asking people what they think makes sense a gas powered buggy or a horse powered buggy, it was revolutionary. Add in suburban sprawl living and cars made even more sense. Snowball effect with that. EV not so much. So it really takes a lot of effort to get everyone on board. China still has a challenge and they have the means to do so. If the government really wanted full EV attack theyíd conjure up gas taxes that doubled the price for a gallon of gas. So far none of that has happened. Itís slow crawl metered progression.

Iím not opposed to EV but Iíll also likely be the last holdout. Less demand for fuel, in theory, cheaper the gas. Yay for me. But I guess if demand drops enough so will refinery output and gas prices go up. Weíll see.
you have nothing to worry about. EV are still less than 1% in this country and will remain single digits even though they are spurred on by incentive after incentive trying to convince people to get on board. At the end of the day it is left to personal choice, as it should be. If you want one, get one. Nothing is stopping you save the fact that you cannot just have an EV, you need yet another car to be practical. So if you already have an ICE vehicle you can rely on, get an EV. It will be a totally different experience. I will be behind 4S-turbo in the line to get an EV as they have absolutely zero appeal to me as they do nothing better than my Ridgeline.
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Old 04-10-2019, 11:07 AM   #467
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You know you can buy the $35k version right now, right? (of course, they'll probably try to up-sell to an SR+ for $39k (?), since it will otherwise be a few months before the SR is shipping).

You also technically don't have to claim the EV tax credit when you do your taxes either, since it only gets your own money back. So boom, 35k Tesla without a .gov credit, right now.
That I actually did not know. I figured it was just like the original tesla model s "price" where they calculated price based on a bunch of garbage "your equivalent savings over gas if you drive 150 miles a day + our govt money = your new low price!"

Time to start warming the wife up to the idea of trading in her mazda?
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Old 04-10-2019, 12:24 PM   #468
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That I actually did not know. I figured it was just like the original tesla model s "price" where they calculated price based on a bunch of garbage "your equivalent savings over gas if you drive 150 miles a day + our govt money = your new low price!"

Time to start warming the wife up to the idea of trading in her mazda?
They still do quote that garbage price, fwiw. But the pre-incentive base price is now indeed $35k. If they ever actually ship them.

In MN I'd go with AWD, though, and that mandates the long range battery and thus premium interior, and all of a sudden it's not near $35k anymore.
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:51 PM   #469
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I'm looking hard at trading in my paid off 4Runner on a base trim Model 3, but I think I'm going to enjoy not having a car payment for a bit.

Tesla's website is a bit deceptive. I built the 3 I wanted. The website shows $8,xxx in "savings". When you drill down on that, it's the federal tax credit plus $4500 in gas savings over four years time.

Yeah, ok.

Cost savings isn't even why I like them. I think they're a fun gadget and I'd love to get ahold of that autopilot, plus it gets me HOV access.
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:45 PM   #470
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Yea, the "savings" is annoying, but I can see why they do it.

Normally when trading cars the amount you spend on gas will stay about the same. Going to an EV will lower that by 50-75%, which can add up to a significant amount, depending on how much you drive.

Since most people are dumb, they won't realize that without being smacked with it when ordering.
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:52 PM   #471
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I'm looking hard at trading in my paid off 4Runner on a base trim Model 3, but I think I'm going to enjoy not having a car payment for a bit.

Tesla's website is a bit deceptive. I built the 3 I wanted. The website shows $8,xxx in "savings". When you drill down on that, it's the federal tax credit plus $4500 in gas savings over four years time.

Yeah, ok.

Cost savings isn't even why I like them. I think they're a fun gadget and I'd love to get ahold of that autopilot, plus it gets me HOV access.
I'm with you on the ridiculous "savings" BS on the website - just show me the price of the damn car, tax credit may/may not happen, quoted/estimated fuel savings are laughable at best and shouldn't be included; if they want to go the average delta route, they should include the MASSIVE INCREASE in insurance compared to the average ICE car.

I'm a fan of low end torque, and 0 RPM is pretty damn low, I also like minimal maintenance, not for cost savings, but for convenience/reduced down time, so I'd like to give one a whirl. I'm more likely to pick up a Model 3 than I am a Giulia, even though the latter makes my pants tight.
I hate that I've become a responsible adult, ten years ago me with my current income would own a hellcat/GT350R/other super impractical tire-smoke machine, a cab-and-a-half Raptor & a few motorcycles to round out the stable; now I'm like "reliable" "family friendly" "cargo capacity" "tow rating" "safety" and such other adult-type things; ah well, such is life.
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:00 PM   #472
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Yea, the "savings" is annoying, but I can see why they do it.

Normally when trading cars the amount you spend on gas will stay about the same. Going to an EV will lower that by 50-75%, which can add up to a significant amount, depending on how much you drive.

Since most people are dumb, they won't realize that without being smacked with it when ordering.
Not true for everyone - you like in Kentucky which has some of the lowest electricity prices, for us North-East or West Coasters electricity is painfully expensive (unless you generate yourself); such that an EV savings are minimal or non-existent.

They do it so they can make the car look cheaper than it is; it's marketing spin.
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:08 PM   #473
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Oh, I'm not in Kentucky. I'm in Southern Oregon Power is $0.12/kwh here. And even then, an EV is significantly cheaper to operate.
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:38 PM   #474
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Not true for everyone - you like in Kentucky which has some of the lowest electricity prices, for us North-East or West Coasters electricity is painfully expensive (unless you generate yourself); such that an EV savings are minimal or non-existent.

They do it so they can make the car look cheaper than it is; it's marketing spin.
A Model 3 uses about 250 Wh/mile on average, perhaps a bit less even. To drive 30 miles then one would use 7.5 kWh. Even at 20 cents/kWh and with say 90% charging efficiency that's significantly cheaper than gas.

For those of us in places with more reasonable energy costs the savings are even greater.
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:52 PM   #475
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Not true for everyone - you like in Kentucky which has some of the lowest electricity prices, for us North-East or West Coasters electricity is painfully expensive (unless you generate yourself); such that an EV savings are minimal or non-existent.

They do it so they can make the car look cheaper than it is; it's marketing spin.
Hi, west coast checking in.


Yeah, not even close to comparable to gas. We barely even noticed an increase in our electric bill (granted, everything in our house is electric, so a cold winter is much more noticeable)
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