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Old 04-11-2019, 08:18 PM   #476
RODSCALIP5
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A couple of things. Looks like the Government is looking to extend the $7500 Tax Incentive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz.../#1016dadc54a9

While I want a Model 3, Tesla's future is unclear

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Com...bn-Gigafactory

I have a Powerwall and Panels ready to go. Waiting on to see what the big boys bring out.
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:23 PM   #477
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Hi, west coast checking in.


Yeah, not even close to comparable to gas. We barely even noticed an increase in our electric bill (granted, everything in our house is electric, so a cold winter is much more noticeable)
Yep.
$3.30/gallon, and 25 mpg in town, is 13.2 cents/mile.
300Wh * 0.12c/kwh is 3.6 cents/mile.

70%(!) cheaper to go electric.
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:40 PM   #478
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I'm with you on the ridiculous "savings" BS on the website - just show me the price of the damn car, tax credit may/may not happen, quoted/estimated fuel savings are laughable at best and shouldn't be included; if they want to go the average delta route, they should include the MASSIVE INCREASE in insurance compared to the average ICE car.

I'm a fan of low end torque, and 0 RPM is pretty damn low, I also like minimal maintenance, not for cost savings, but for convenience/reduced down time, so I'd like to give one a whirl. I'm more likely to pick up a Model 3 than I am a Giulia, even though the latter makes my pants tight.
I hate that I've become a responsible adult, ten years ago me with my current income would own a hellcat/GT350R/other super impractical tire-smoke machine, a cab-and-a-half Raptor & a few motorcycles to round out the stable; now I'm like "reliable" "family friendly" "cargo capacity" "tow rating" "safety" and such other adult-type things; ah well, such is life.
insurance cost is a case by case thing. I can tell you that in my case my performance model 3 cost $582.50 per 6 months vs my wifes 2016 RAV 4 $484.50 with same exact coverage.

I also got lucky that I have a free charger at work so I charge there 95% of the $5400 miles my car has. My IS-F used to get 15-18mpg and I had to run 93oct.

And I agree I bought my car for the acceleration and because I love technology.
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:29 PM   #479
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So Telsa is offering leases on the model 3
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:48 PM   #480
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So Telsa is offering leases on the model 3


... with no purchase option at residual at lease end. They say theyíll be used as robotaxis for the Tesla Network.

April 22 will be interesting, their shindig for investors showing off their self driving progress.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:17 AM   #481
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Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Tesla drop the $35k model already? I just went to Tesla.com and it appeared that the $39k option was the cheapest available.

Also, where can I find more information about the lease offers?

Edit: Found an article about my first question. Bolding mine.

Quote:
The news of Tesla’s Model 3 leasing program comes on the heels of several other major shakeups for the electric car maker, most of which affect the company’s Model 3 options directly. The once highly anticipated $35k Standard Range variation of the car has been removed from Tesla’s website in favor of the Standard Plus variant only out of the two most affordable options.

Customers can still obtain the Model 3 Standard Range outside of the online process; however, the Plus variation must be purchased first, making the downgrade a software-generated reversion of battery range and computer programs given with a refund.

Tesla’s financial reasoning behind these changes may be clarified further during the upcoming Q1 2019 earnings call scheduled for April 24th. In the company’s announcement regarding the sales retooling, streamlining and simplification of operations were cited as the primary drivers. Additionally, the Model 3 Standard Plus sold at six times the rate of the Standard, according to Tesla, thus offering an opportunity to further simplify the ordering and manufacturing process became apparent.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:33 AM   #482
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So the cars are equipped with all this mechanical capability but they only let you have it if you pay a certain amount? That seems wrong to me. That does not bother anybody else? Maybe it is more common that I am aware...

I guess if it does not bug the current buyers then so be it.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:51 AM   #483
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So the cars are equipped with all this mechanical capability but they only let you have it if you pay a certain amount? That seems wrong to me. That does not bother anybody else? Maybe it is more common that I am aware...

I guess if it does not bug the current buyers then so be it.
The OG "40 kWh" Model S was a software-locked 60 kWh one. No one bought that one, probably in no small part because it couldn't Supercharge.

Also see BMW only enabling CarPlay for a monthly subscription fee, or for that matter the whole 4-banger 320 vs 328 business. That's software-locked via the boost level, I believe.

If anything this is better for the $35k buyers. Pleather instead of cloth, the chance to upgrade at any date in the future, and the software lock forces them to not go to 100% SOC, which will be excellent for battery longevity down the road.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:03 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
So the cars are equipped with all this mechanical capability but they only let you have it if you pay a certain amount? That seems wrong to me. That does not bother anybody else? Maybe it is more common that I am aware...

I guess if it does not bug the current buyers then so be it.
Dodge Demon.


Pay a shedload of money for a race car, then you have to pay another $1 for a box of stuff to make it a race car
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:17 PM   #485
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VW/VAG products.... several features are software locked.

For the record, software locked stuff bothers me - it seems a bit shady that you can software lock an item and sell it for a price, and the amount of effort to "upgrade it" boils down to a few keystrokes for thousands of dollars, aka almost pure profit.

In my mind it boils down to either the "base" model isn't being sold for enough money, or xyz manufacturer is greedy; either way it feels like shady business practices; most manufacturers, if not all, are guilty of it to some extent though; not giving Tesla a pass, I just don't was to single them out and/or dismiss the others.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:11 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
VW/VAG products.... several features are software locked.

For the record, software locked stuff bothers me - it seems a bit shady that you can software lock an item and sell it for a price, and the amount of effort to "upgrade it" boils down to a few keystrokes for thousands of dollars, aka almost pure profit.

In my mind it boils down to either the "base" model isn't being sold for enough money, or xyz manufacturer is greedy; either way it feels like shady business practices; most manufacturers, if not all, are guilty of it to some extent though; not giving Tesla a pass, I just don't was to single them out and/or dismiss the others.
I see it as paying for upgraded software that's not free to develop. Just because it's easy to apply the upgrade doesn't mean it's easy to develop and test.

I get it if you're thinking purely from a mechanical/hardware perspective but software ain't cheap to develop.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:17 PM   #487
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Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but did Tesla drop the $35k model already? I just went to Tesla.com and it appeared that the $39k option was the cheapest available.

Also, where can I find more information about the lease offers?

Edit: Found an article about my first question. Bolding mine.
As of a few days ago () you could call them and order the $35k version. Apparently there was much more demand for the SR+ versus the SR, so they removed the SR from the site.

--------

Paying for software upgrades have been around for just about forever.

I remember an old RAID card that had a single resistor difference between it and a lot faster/expensive card. Change the resistor yourself and you got a nice upgrade
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:22 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
VW/VAG products.... several features are software locked.

For the record, software locked stuff bothers me - it seems a bit shady that you can software lock an item and sell it for a price, and the amount of effort to "upgrade it" boils down to a few keystrokes for thousands of dollars, aka almost pure profit.

In my mind it boils down to either the "base" model isn't being sold for enough money, or xyz manufacturer is greedy; either way it feels like shady business practices; most manufacturers, if not all, are guilty of it to some extent though; not giving Tesla a pass, I just don't was to single them out and/or dismiss the others.
Why is this shady at all? Their margin shouldn't matter to the consumer. What matters is that they're offering two distinct products from the consumer's perspective at two different pricepoints.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:47 PM   #489
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Why is this shady at all? Their margin shouldn't matter to the consumer. What matters is that they're offering two distinct products from the consumer's perspective at two different pricepoints.
Yep,


And those cheaper cars make up for it in volume and help offset the cost of developing the performance version.
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Old 04-15-2019, 03:31 PM   #490
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I donít think locking stuff is shady. I think itís great a $15k car may very well share the same computing power as a million dollar car. Platform sharing is also great for this reason.
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:14 PM   #491
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But you already bought it. Code costs nothing. It is a limit. You already paid for a capability and they are handicapping you simply because they can squeeze more money out of you. You paid for the motor and batteries to let you go that fast. But they want milk you more.

Shady as heck if you ask me.
I hated it when VW did it, and I hate it now.
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:18 PM   #492
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But you already bought it. Code costs nothing. It is a limit. You already paid for a capability and they are handicapping you simply because they can squeeze more money out of you. You paid for the motor and batteries to let you go that fast. But they want milk you more.

Shady as heck if you ask me.
I hated it when VW did it, and I hate it now.
Why should Mathworks charge you extra for each Matlab toolbox? Code costs nothing and they already wrote it...?
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:25 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
But you already bought it. Code costs nothing. It is a limit. You already paid for a capability and they are handicapping you simply because they can squeeze more money out of you. You paid for the motor and batteries to let you go that fast. But they want milk you more.

Shady as heck if you ask me.
I hated it when VW did it, and I hate it now.
Uhm,


No.


Just no.


The code does cost something.


You think that performance trim just created it's own code?


No, they created two different levels, verified and tested each level, then had them Federalized and emissions certified.



For every market it's sold in.



It all costs money.
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:32 PM   #494
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Pay to play. Literally. The entitlement with the youth nowadays. Sheesh.
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Old 04-15-2019, 05:55 PM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
But you already bought it. Code costs nothing. It is a limit. You already paid for a capability and they are handicapping you simply because they can squeeze more money out of you. You paid for the motor and batteries to let you go that fast. But they want milk you more.

Shady as heck if you ask me.
I hated it when VW did it, and I hate it now.
So once you buy a PC all software should be free??
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:36 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
But you already bought it. Code costs nothing. It is a limit. You already paid for a capability and they are handicapping you simply because they can squeeze more money out of you. You paid for the motor and batteries to let you go that fast. But they want milk you more.

Shady as heck if you ask me.
I hated it when VW did it, and I hate it now.
Software does not cost nothing to develop.

It's very expensive in reality. Software engineers, especially highly specialized and skilled engineers, are some of the highest paid in engineering.

Paying for warranty on mechanical parts pushed harder isn't free either.
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:19 AM   #497
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So once you buy a PC all software should be free??
Markedly different. This thing has all the software already on it. I guarantee this is just some flag in the code that they can toggle in 2 seconds to switch between stuff.

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Software does not cost nothing to develop.
The cost of some toggle in the program with some variable changes effectively costs nothing. It would take me two seconds of work. Source: I'm a software engineer. Developing two separate charge routines might cost a little more, but probably not nearly as much as you think. It's likely just alterations of integers in the code of some key variables.


Quote:
Paying for warranty on mechanical parts pushed harder isn't free either.
You have a point with this, but I bet the "warranty cost" is effectively the same between the two considering it's built to the higher specs and then artificially limited via software alone.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:39 AM   #498
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So once you buy a PC all software should be free??
The more accurate analogy would be having a computer where everything, software and hardware, is the same, except one PC's software limits the computer's speed vs. the other one.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:04 AM   #499
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Markedly different. This thing has all the software already on it. I guarantee this is just some flag in the code that they can toggle in 2 seconds to switch between stuff.


The cost of some toggle in the program with some variable changes effectively costs nothing. It would take me two seconds of work. Source: I'm a software engineer. Developing two separate charge routines might cost a little more, but probably not nearly as much as you think. It's likely just alterations of integers in the code of some key variables.
I am also a software/electrical engineer that works with many clients in the auto industry. You're partially missing my point. The code that is used when the flag is toggled has to be designed and thoroughly tested, this is automotive after all. Saying "code costs nothing" is completely false. Acting like all it boils down to is a toggle and a few variables is also an oversimplification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
You have a point with this, but I bet the "warranty cost" is effectively the same between the two considering it's built to the higher specs and then artificially limited via software alone.
Almost anything mechanical that is over engineered for it's use will have less chance of issues through it's life than one pushed closer to it's limits. Same motor making 50hp less will statistically be more reliable all else being equal.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:12 AM   #500
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The more accurate analogy would be having a computer where everything, software and hardware, is the same, except one PC's software limits the computer's speed vs. the other one.
This is done to cut costs for the manufacturer while still offering a variety of options for the customer.

A better analogy is having the professional version of a software application downloaded and pre-installed with the base version but only unlocked with a license key. Makes it easier and cheaper for the development on many levels but it doesn't mean the customer shouldn't have to pay for the extra features in the pro version.
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