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Old 09-05-2019, 08:02 PM   #826
Brahmzy
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Good gravy. $70K for a tarted up EJ STI with plastic fender cladding.
Different strokes I guess..

Me making the decision? $60K for an ///M2Comp, no question.
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:02 PM   #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Good gravy. $70K for a tarted up EJ STI with plastic fender cladding.
Different strokes I guess..

Me making the decision? $60K for an ///M2Comp, no question.
What do you say to $100K for a 22B?
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:06 PM   #828
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22B isn't an S car. No way to compare the two. You have all the right in the world to compare them, but I don't really see the point.
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Old 09-05-2019, 11:11 PM   #829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC
Rewind waaay back to the 22B and it's MSRP and what they ACTUALLY sold for......back then.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
What do you say to $100K for a 22B?
Can you provide an example of a 22B originally selling for $100k in 1998? They were originally 5 million yen (~$41k).

I get that they auction for more now that they're a rare, "legendary" collector's car that wasn't offered in the US. Not to mention the 22 year old 22B is as fast as (or faster than) the S209.. especially with a set of modern tires to level the playing field.

I have no doubt that the S209 will appreciate in value and be a collector's car in the future given that it's the first S car for the US and only ~200 are being produced. But it's no 22B.
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Old 09-06-2019, 01:49 AM   #830
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70k.... ouch
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:53 AM   #831
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
22B isn't an S car. No way to compare the two. You have all the right in the world to compare them, but I don't really see the point.
How is there no way to compare the two? Subaru says the S209 is the fastest STI they have ever produced. And it will be more rare than the 22B.

I FULLY appreciate what the 22B is and have had the pleasure of drooling over both cars that are here in the US and sitting is SOA's. But, my point is people are complaining about a possible price point of the S209; but, would they have had the same criticism of the 22Bs price back in the day? And they might have....

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Can you provide an example of a 22B originally selling for $100k in 1998? They were originally 5 million yen (~$41k).

I get that they auction for more now that they're a rare, "legendary" collector's car that wasn't offered in the US. Not to mention the 22 year old 22B is as fast as (or faster than) the S209.. especially with a set of modern tires to level the playing field.

I have no doubt that the S209 will appreciate in value and be a collector's car in the future given that it's the first S car for the US and only ~200 are being produced. But it's no 22B.

I've been trying to find the article that talked about how fast they sold out and that every one of them sold for $100K.

It's hard to say "MSRP" was a certain number. 20 years from now we could say the S209 MSRP was $60K; but, if every one of them sells with addendum at $80K...........

And lets inflate 1998's $41K and then compare what you got with a 22B with what a S209 has at it's price point.




This is the only thing I could "quickly" find that alludes to the price back then. And it also lends to 4S-TURBO's statement of we really can't compare the two:

https://jalopnik.com/why-the-subaru-...t-c-1825224737

Last edited by JustyWRC; 09-06-2019 at 09:06 AM. Reason: found something
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:14 AM   #832
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The Jalaponik article says it better than I can as to why you can't compare the two. Some highlights..
Quote:
The world was a different place back then... four-second-range 0-60 mph times were the domain of road-legal weaponry such as the McLaren F1, Jaguar XJ220, Porsche 959, and Ferrari F40.

And for a brief period, Subaru.

“Unofficially, because there is no official [0-60 mph] test, this car, unofficially, can pull, at that time, 20 years ago, [0-60 mph] in 3.9 seconds,” Subaru Australia chief engineer Hiep Bui told me. “Technically, this car is a rocket.”

“Many years before it launched, not many people really can pronounce the ‘Subaru’ correctly. But since the launch of the 22B, it’s actually put it on the world map.”

“This here is a special car,” Bui said, “At that point in time, they said, we have a WRX, and we want something special—something that other people haven’t been able to achieve. It... showed that the engineers, if you give them a chance, there will be no limit. They can do a special edition, they can do a special car, and the car will last.”

“I look at this car as a turning point or a line in the sand, to say this is what Subaru’s capable of to build,” adds Hill.

So, while school kids argued over mega-dollar Ferraris, Jaguars, McLarens, and Porsches hitting 0-60 mph in 3.2 or 3.6 seconds, Subaru went ahead and built a car for a fraction of the price that, while perhaps not quicker, was at least fast enough to enter the debate. And in terms of production, it was just as rare.

Faster and lighter than a new STI..

So if there’s any justice in this world, there won’t be any milking this anniversary. No 22B-themed special editions that are just watered down versions of the original and slightly tarted up versions of the current WRX STI. That wouldn’t be right. That wouldn’t do the legend justice.
Subaru was considering naming the S209 the 25B.. and then decided against it. While rare and special (by Subaru standards today), the S209 just won't be as legendary for its era.

Accounting for inflation, the 22B's MSRP would be ~$65k.. the same MSRP that the S209 is rumored at.
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:16 AM   #833
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Sure the 22B gets a lot of hype, but for good reason. It put Subaru on the map as a performance car brand. It did 0-60 mph in 3.9-4.5 seconds depending on the tester. It finished the 1/4 mile in the high 12/low 13 second range. Remember, this was back in 1998.. That made it faster than pretty much all of its Japanese rivals like the Supra, GTR, RX7, NSX, Type R, etc.. and faster than other performance cars like the Corvette, Lotus, M3 & M5, etc. It wasn't too far behind performance legends like the Viper, Porsche 911 Turbo, and Ferrari for a fraction of the price.

Fast forward 22 years and the S209 will be faster than.. the FWD Type R? All of the other manufacturers are light years ahead now. We can hope that the S209 will be as fast as the Focus RS was when it arrived in 2016.. and people were complaining about the FoRS initial markups to $40-50k. We'll see what happens, but the S209 will likely go for at least $70-80k with ADM unless Subaru decides to go with a lottery system. The CTR will be nearly as fast for half the price. The Supra is in another class for less money. And the Corvette.. we've all heard about that. Yes, the S209 will be rarer, but it's still just a modified STI to most.

People buy cars like this for many reasons.. personal preference, sentimental or emotional response, performance, reliability, rarity, finances (budget or depreciation/appreciation), popularity in the media, etc. You have every right to prefer the S209 and believe that its a better car. I'm simply stating that it's not the better performance car.. especially based on today's standards.. and IMO that's the point of a S edition - especially considering the high entry price. It's slower than a lot of modern rivals and comes with a higher price tag. The 22B was faster than most cars of its era for a similar price or less.

I personally would rather spend my money on a M2C for that price. I wouldn't be able to justify spending 2x what I spent on my '19 STI for a version that's slightly faster. The S209 will certainly be special and rare.. and worth the price of admission to some people. That person just isn't me. I'd certainly buy a $100k 22B over a $80k S209 if I had that kind of money to burn.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-06-2019 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:28 AM   #834
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I don't necessarily disagree with you. But, still contend that comment you made, and made by many, to be GROSSLY over exaggerated. Please explain how the other manufacturers are "light years" ahead.......


The 22B was "light years" ahead back in the day. No arguing that. Today, however, those other cars you are trying to refer to are only marginally better than a car that's been available for 16 years.......
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:35 PM   #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Good gravy. $70K for a tarted up EJ STI with plastic fender cladding.
Different strokes I guess..

Me making the decision? $60K for an ///M2Comp, no question.
BMW really lost me these past 5-10 years, especially as everything went heavy/auto/turbo. But yea, that M2C is pretty dope.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:50 PM   #836
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Please explain how the other manufacturers are "light years" ahead.......

The 22B was "light years" ahead back in the day. No arguing that. Today, however, those other cars you are trying to refer to are only marginally better than a car that's been available for 16 years.......
That's the point.. the 22B was amazing for its time and showed that Subaru could "run with the big dogs" for a fraction of the price. The S209 follows the same unchanged 'recipe' with similar performance to the 22B from 22 years ago.. while others continue to raise the bar. The S209 doesn't shock and awe anyone... well maybe the price tag does.

S209 - Car and Driver estimates:
$65k (before markup)
341 hp (how long has the EJ been around?)
0-60 mph: mid 4s
1/4-mile: high 12s/low13s

We'll start with competitors at half the price..

2017 Civic Type R
$36k (before markup)
306 hp
0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
1/4-mile: 13.6 sec

2016 Focus RS
$36k (before markup)
350 hp
0-60: 4.5 sec
1/4-mile: 13.4 sec

2018 Mustang GT
$37k (no markup)
460 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec
1/4-mile: 12.1 sec

Cars closer in price, but still noticeably less:

2019 M2 Competition (yep, the M3 & M4 are also faster & still cheaper)
$60k (no markup)
405 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec
1/4-mile: 12.4 sec

2020 Supra
$50k (before markup)
"335 hp" - underrated and closer to 385 hp
0-60: 3.8 sec
1/4-mile: 12.3 sec

2020 Corvette (base model)
$59k (before markup)
495 hp
0-60 mph: 2.9 sec
1/4 mile: 11.3 sec

I'll stop here since these cars already perform better than the S209 for less money. I won't list the stats for more expensive cars that rivaled the 22B back in 1998... things like the 2010 GTR, 2016 NSX, Viper, Corvette Z06/ZR1, BMW M3 & M5, Porsche, McLaren, Ferrari, etc. These cars have 0-60 times in 3 seconds or less and run the 1/4 mile in the 9-11 second range. The only car that neared this level of performance in 1998 was the $1 million McLaren F1.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-06-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:31 PM   #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
How is there no way to compare the two? Subaru says the S209 is the fastest STI they have ever produced. And it will be more rare than the 22B.

I FULLY appreciate what the 22B is and have had the pleasure of drooling over both cars that are here in the US and sitting is SOA's. But, my point is people are complaining about a possible price point of the S209; but, would they have had the same criticism of the 22Bs price back in the day? And they might have....




I've been trying to find the article that talked about how fast they sold out and that every one of them sold for $100K.

It's hard to say "MSRP" was a certain number. 20 years from now we could say the S209 MSRP was $60K; but, if every one of them sells with addendum at $80K...........

And lets inflate 1998's $41K and then compare what you got with a 22B with what a S209 has at it's price point.




This is the only thing I could "quickly" find that alludes to the price back then. And it also lends to 4S-TURBO's statement of we really can't compare the two:

https://jalopnik.com/why-the-subaru-...t-c-1825224737
Nobody compared an S202 or an S206 or an S208 to a damn 22B. That's the point. This is an S car massaged with certain criteria in mind. That's all. Justifying the price by saying the S209 is as rare as a 22B or performs better than a 22B is dumb. It's an evolution of the S208 back on down the line to the S201 and nothing more. Can you say this is "OUR" 22B because we've been out of the loop? Sure, which is why I said you have all the right in the world to do so. But again, what's the point?
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:49 PM   #838
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While not all of us agree on the S209 & 22B debate.. I think we all will appreciate this picture as Subaru enthusiasts


Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-06-2019 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:56 PM   #839
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Dude I'll take all of them please, thank. Throw in the Legacy models too while you're at it.
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:56 PM   #840
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There are no comparison between 22b and S209. The reason they exist are different. S-line are always the Top spec version of Impreza WRX Sti (produced from Sti) that's all.

22b exist for a totally difference. Subaru has to put impreza in Group A class of the World Rally Championship with wider fender. And In order to be homologated, manufacturers were required to produce 2,500 units worldwide before they can use that chassis for the race back then. That how 22b was designed and made into a limited edition to 500ish car for sale.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:10 PM   #841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
That's the point.. the 22B was amazing for its time and showed that Subaru could "run with the big dogs" for a fraction of the price. The S209 follows the same unchanged 'recipe' with similar performance to the 22B from 22 years ago.. while others continue to raise the bar. The S209 doesn't shock and awe anyone... well maybe the price tag does.

S209 - Car and Driver estimates:
$65k (before markup)
341 hp (how long has the EJ been around?)
0-60 mph: mid 4s
1/4-mile: high 12s/low13s

We'll start with competitors at half the price..

2017 Civic Type R
$36k (before markup)
306 hp
0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
1/4-mile: 13.7 sec

2016 Focus RS
$36k (before markup)
350 hp
0-60: 4.5 sec
1/4-mile: 13.4 sec

2018 Mustang GT
$37k (no markup)
460 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec
1/4-mile: 12.1 sec

Cars closer in price, but still noticeably less:

2019 M2 Competition (yep, the M3 & M4 are also faster & still cheaper)
$60k (no markup)
405 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec
1/4-mile: 12.4 sec

2020 Supra
$50k (before markup)
"335 hp" - underrated and closer to 385 hp
0-60: 3.8 sec
1/4-mile: 12.3 sec

2020 Corvette (base model)
$59k (before markup)
495 hp
0-60 mph: 2.9 sec
1/4 mile: 11.3 sec

I'll stop here since these cars already perform better than the S209 for less money. I won't list the stats for more expensive cars that rivaled the 22B back in 1998... things like the 2010 GTR, 2016 NSX, Viper, Corvette Z06/ZR1, BMW M3 & M5, Porsche, McLaren, Ferrari, etc. These cars have 0-60 times in 3 seconds or less and run the 1/4 mile in the 9-11 second range. The only car that neared this level of performance in 1998 was the $1 million McLaren F1.
Well, none of those stats are "light years" ahead. You are likely to pay more for those cars than MSRP, yet are not as hard to get as a S209. MUCH of the S209s price is certainly rarity. And a couple monikers to go with it. FASTEST ever(at this time), FIRST ever S series for the states. Another numbered car(not too many of those from Subaru).

And to compare it to cars that are less practical just doesn't work. I'd wager MOST buyers get one because of it's practicality. Less so since the departure of the 5 door; but, still 4 doors and better all weather. Someone will certainly chime in with "oh, I can drive in the snow just fine with my Mustang" but, the reality is, how many do you see out in bad weather? Surely far less than in better weather. Whereas Subaru owners typically just don't care what the weather is outside. Also, get any one of those cars and lets resell them together in 8-10 years and lets see who gets more money back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Nobody compared an S202 or an S206 or an S208 to a damn 22B. That's the point. This is an S car massaged with certain criteria in mind. That's all. Justifying the price by saying the S209 is as rare as a 22B or performs better than a 22B is dumb. It's an evolution of the S208 back on down the line to the S201 and nothing more. Can you say this is "OUR" 22B because we've been out of the loop? Sure, which is why I said you have all the right in the world to do so. But again, what's the point?

You specifically remember that no one compared any previous S model to a 22B? I sure don't. I'd probably say they did as pretty much EVERYTHING Subaru does gets compared to it.

MY point is purely price for what you are getting. People paid out the ass for the 22B. Still are actually. They won't be paying as much for this car, that does perform better and has a lot more features than back then. YOU don't want to buy one? Great. Probably another good reason to keep it to 200 units. Depending on what Subaru offers in the future, this car may be something special down the road. If they come out with some baller offerings with the SGP, then probably not.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:28 PM   #842
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For the price you are getting? You are not getting a 22B. That's the end of the exercise. I'm not knocking the S209 by saying these things. The S209 IS special. I will tell you that right now. But it's not special like the 22B. It's special like an S208 etc.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:32 PM   #843
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Homologation specials the specialest kind of special; I am 100% serious even though my delivery was anything but.
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Old 09-06-2019, 04:05 PM   #844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Well, none of those stats are "light years" ahead.

And to compare it to cars that are less practical just doesn't work. I'd wager MOST buyers get one because of it's practicality. Less so since the departure of the 5 door; but, still 4 doors and better all weather. Someone will certainly chime in with "oh, I can drive in the snow just fine with my Mustang" but, the reality is, how many do you see out in bad weather? Surely far less than in better weather. Whereas Subaru owners typically just don't care what the weather is outside. Also, get any one of those cars and lets resell them together in 8-10 years and lets see who gets more money back.

MY point is purely price for what you are getting. People paid out the ass for the 22B. Still are actually. They won't be paying as much for this car, that does perform better and has a lot more features than back then. YOU don't want to buy one? Great. Probably another good reason to keep it to 200 units. Depending on what Subaru offers in the future, this car may be something special down the road. If they come out with some baller offerings with the SGP, then probably not.
So now the argument has evolved into the S209 being hopefully cheaper, more comfortable, and a more practical daily driver in the snow? and will retain a good resale value in 10 years after the abuse of daily driving?

The 22B competed with supercars. The S209 will not. It's not any faster than the 22B was 22 years ago. End of story.
Want a practical AWD car that's faster for similar money? The new CLA 45 AMG with the M139 engine.. and it's even a 5-door hatchback with better fuel economy.
Want a car that's faster for more money (and that was slower than the 22B in 1998)? M5.

Those performance stats aren't "light years" ahead? There are cars now that do 0-60 mph in 2.2 seconds and run 9s in the 1/4 mile. That was once only sport-bike territory. The $1 million dollar 1998 McLaren F1 only managed 0-60 mph in 3.2 seconds and finished the 1/4 mile in 11.1 seconds. A $60k 2020 Corvette (base model) can reach 60 mph faster at 2.9 seconds and finish the 1/4 mile in 11.3 seconds.. yet you don't think cars have significantly improved over the last 22 years despite the same or better level of performance being achieved for a fraction of the cost?!?

Yet Subaru has chosen to use the same engine technology and EJ platform for how long now? Why haven't they evolved and gotten faster?

The snow argument? You think people are going to drive their ultra-rare $70k+ S209 in the snow? If someone daily drives their S209, racks up the miles, and starts to rust because of winter driving - how much do you think it's going to be worth in 8-10 years with all the wear & tear? It certainly won't appreciate in value and be a collector's car then.

The S209 won't be meaningfully faster (if at all) than the 22B and certainly doesn't compete with the level of cars that the 22B did. Who cares about "features" on a rare performance car that will mostly be garaged? The S209 has a few "STI tuned" parts and a hand-built engine with stronger internals.. I'm sure these will mostly be garage queens or track toys.. They're not buying it for comfort features or Android Auto/Apple CarPlay.. those people would buy a luxury car from BMW, Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, etc.

I haven't seen any evidence of people paying crazy amounts for a 22B from the dealer in 1998. Sure they auction for $100k+ now that they're a desired collector's car. How can you say "they won't be paying as much for this car" without that figure or knowing how much markup people will pay on the S209?

The S209 is special, just not special like the 22B. End of story.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-06-2019 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:20 PM   #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post

S209 - Car and Driver estimates:
$65k (before markup)
341 hp (how long has the EJ been around?)
0-60 mph: mid 4s
1/4-mile: high 12s/low13s

We'll start with competitors at half the price..

2017 Civic Type R
$36k (before markup)
306 hp
0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
1/4-mile: 13.6 sec

2016 Focus RS
$36k (before markup)
350 hp
0-60: 4.5 sec
1/4-mile: 13.4 sec

2018 Mustang GT
$37k (no markup)
460 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec
1/4-mile: 12.1 sec

Cars closer in price, but still noticeably less:

2019 M2 Competition (yep, the M3 & M4 are also faster & still cheaper)
$60k (no markup)
405 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec
1/4-mile: 12.4 sec

2020 Supra
$50k (before markup)
"335 hp" - underrated and closer to 385 hp
0-60: 3.8 sec
1/4-mile: 12.3 sec

2020 Corvette (base model)
$59k (before markup)
495 hp
0-60 mph: 2.9 sec
1/4 mile: 11.3 sec
Using dollar value and quarter mile times alone..sure great list.

Now let's drill down a little deeper as to not be biased.

Redo your list. But include:

4 doors.

All wheel drive.

Accessible self maintenance

Strong parts catalog (both aftermarket and replacement parts)

Limited to under 500 and numbered

Manual option

Exceptional safety rating

Strong resell value

The S209 is a niche of a niche. This is not a car that can have performance value determined by speed and cost alone. Just as with my Type RA. There are many...many people who love to tell me how "they" would have spent that money. And it normally does come down to "modding" their wrx to be faster than my Type RA. Which is a fair argument...for that kind of buyer. Anyone seriously looking at the S209...like the RA... will see value far beyond just the factors you used to determine it's competitors.

I am still on the fense but for me it's between keeping my RA (which I love) buying the S209 ( which I also love) or potentially looking at the new vette. The 2 doors, lack of a manual, lack of AWD and the fact that there will be one on every street corner makes that the least attractive option for me right now.
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:10 PM   #846
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This thread is special.
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:12 PM   #847
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^I absolutely agree on the niche within a niche comment. And I'm not saying the S209 is bad. I'm glad that Subaru is finally giving US buyers that option. I was just stating:

1) It's really expensive ($/performance) - but it's a rare niche car that people will pay for
2) It can't be compared to the 22B in terms of performance - it's not a modern day 22B

From one of my previous posts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16;
People buy cars like this for many reasons.. personal preference, sentimental or emotional response, performance, reliability, rarity, finances (budget or depreciation/appreciation), popularity in the media, etc. You have every right to prefer the S209 and believe that its a better car. I'm simply stating that it's not the better performance car.. especially based on today's standards.. and IMO that's the point of a S edition - especially considering the high entry price. It's slower than a lot of modern rivals and comes with a higher price tag. The 22B was faster than most cars of its era for a similar price or less.

I personally would rather spend my money on a M2C for that price. I wouldn't be able to justify spending 2x what I spent on my '19 STI for a version that's slightly faster. The S209 will certainly be special and rare.. and worth the price of admission to some people. That person just isn't me. I'd certainly buy a $100k 22B over a $80k S209 if I had that kind of money to burn.
Personally, it comes down to the bolded statement above. While I have the financial resources to purchase a Type RA or probably a S209 (depending on the markups).. I can't justify spending over 2x what I spent on my '19 STI just for rarity and a bit more performance. I love that it has all of the little OEM/STI extras, but that's just not enough for me. But it will be for some. I'm sure the S209s will sell out immediately.

I've always believed in having fun cars that I'll actually drive. I wouldn't want to daily drive a $70k+, 200 unit special edition car.. I also wouldn't want to modify it with aftermarket parts or rack up mileage to hurt its resale value as a collector. So that crosses out quite a few things on your list for me:

4 doors - not buying it to DD or haul family, pets or groceries in
All wheel drive
Accessible self maintenance - honestly wouldn't want to drive it enough to need to do significant maintenance
Strong parts catalog (both aftermarket and replacement parts) - wouldn't want to modify it with aftermarket parts to damage the resale value
Limited to under 500 and numbered
Manual option
Exceptional safety rating - not planning on daily driving it for this to matter
Strong resell value

I'd still take the AWD and manual transmission for the rare occasions that I did drive it All of the things that you listed above (minus the limited production) are why I purchased and love my STI!
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:15 PM   #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight6 View Post
This thread is special.
And it's largely my fault. I should quit while I'm behind

But what did you expect from a $65k+ S209 thread? The archaic EJ topic is already controversial enough.. let alone the price of a super limited S edition being brought to the US for the first time
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Old 09-06-2019, 07:05 PM   #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
And it's largely my fault. I should quit while I'm behind

But what did you expect from a $65k+ S209 thread? The archaic EJ topic is already controversial enough.. let alone the price of a super limited S edition being brought to the US for the first time
I'm usually always guilty as well. My arguments never come across well in a text debate. But, keep in mind what you said couple posts up. You said "some" STI parts whereas the S series has EVERY STI part available to that point in that models lifespan. They are making it exclusive to the U.S. which makes it a bit nicer. And it is being "compared" to the 22B by STI themselves. Yes, I agree the 209 isn't the car compared to the market that the 22B was. And also, the "light years" ahead, I am talking about your DIRECT competitors you mention. I don't care about cars in different classes. Yes, it was cool that the 22B punched above it's weight; but, just like the 2004 STi here, I just think those cars were far ahead of their time. Cause 22 years later, the FoRS, CTR and the like aren't "light years" ahead of such an old EJ motor either. "Better"? Sure. Just not "light years". And I only defend the EJ as it's still a stout engine. I want a new one as well and I'm lucky enough to have patience to wait for the new one.
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Old 09-06-2019, 07:23 PM   #850
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New to Subaru people are special.
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