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Old 09-11-2019, 12:49 PM   #26
mhoward1
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Gears in ICE are there as torque multipliers and to help keep the engine in the peak power range despite speed.

With the EV, you can deliver the same power output throughout the entire range, and you have the ability to create enough torque to overcome traction at all speeds. A gear box only gains you the ability to need a less powerful drivetrain (EI, smaller battery footprint), and entertainment value. if we reach the point where the former isn't really a factor, then keeping gears for the latter will actually mean making the powertrain less powerful and efficient just to keep the option available.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:57 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Also, speaking of cargo space...

Co-worker has a model 3. He was quite disappointed that he couldn't fit his cooler in the trunk. I just LOL'd and popped my hatch. (i didn't really, but I wish I was there to do it.)

+1 for the ID.3 in real-life applications of owning a car. Cargo space means nothing if you can't actually use it.
Better get rid of my Tesla and wait a few years to buy a new hatchback EV that may or may not come to the states because my $20 cooler doesn't fit inside it....

Seriously though, how big was the cooler? limiting dimensions in a model 3 trunk are 37w 42d 18h.
Not trying to stand up for the model 3, but unsurprisingly the trunks of compact sedans are compact.

**Laughs in wagon at your pitiful hatchback cargo volume**
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:42 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Better get rid of my Tesla and wait a few years to buy a new hatchback EV that may or may not come to the states because my $20 cooler doesn't fit inside it....

Seriously though, how big was the cooler? limiting dimensions in a model 3 trunk are 37w 42d 18h.
Not trying to stand up for the model 3, but unsurprisingly the trunks of compact sedans are compact.

**Laughs in wagon at your pitiful hatchback cargo volume**
+12345.... Model Y?

and transmissions on a commuter electric car is just silly
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:59 PM   #29
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Model Y will have a hatch. You might be able to get one in 2020.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Better get rid of my Tesla and wait a few years to buy a new hatchback EV that may or may not come to the states because my $20 cooler doesn't fit inside it....

Seriously though, how big was the cooler? limiting dimensions in a model 3 trunk are 37w 42d 18h.
Not trying to stand up for the model 3, but unsurprisingly the trunks of compact sedans are compact.

**Laughs in wagon at your pitiful hatchback cargo volume**
Quick google search reveals that my coworker isn't the only one with this problem: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...-in-m3.156124/

Solution? Buy a new cooler. Pretty easy, sure. But it's not about the cooler.

I have a wagon at my disposal.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:18 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
Gears in ICE are there as torque multipliers and to help keep the engine in the peak power range despite speed.

With the EV, you can deliver the same power output throughout the entire range, and you have the ability to create enough torque to overcome traction at all speeds. A gear box only gains you the ability to need a less powerful drivetrain (EI, smaller battery footprint), and entertainment value. if we reach the point where the former isn't really a factor, then keeping gears for the latter will actually mean making the powertrain less powerful and efficient just to keep the option available.
Torque declines as speed increases, just like an ICE. There are absolutely benefits to geared transmissions in EV. If there weren't, formula e race cars wouldn't be utilizing them.

Necessary on a Leaf? No. On a performance car? It's certainly got benefits, especially with top speed capabilities.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Quick google search reveals that my coworker isn't the only one with this problem: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...-in-m3.156124/

Solution? Buy a new cooler. Pretty easy, sure. But it's not about the cooler.

I have a wagon at my disposal.
My point was it's not a Tesla Model 3 issue, it's a compact sedan issue. Sedans are just horrible when it comes to usable cargo space, one of the (many) reasons I won't buy a newer WRX or STi, is because it's a sedan.
If I didn't need usable cargo space like in a wagon or hatch (eg. if I didn't have a child) I wouldn't have four freaking doors either.

I do like the ID lineup though, sad we in the US are getting the damn crossover first (because Murricans love Crossovers), I'd rather the buzz; my next question will be how many nannies will VW let you turn off? I'm not planning a buzzkhana or anything, just want to drive a damn vehicle without it imposing some a**-hat engineers will on me because he or she was forced to design for the lowest common denominator (should note: I too am an a**-hat engineer, that's just what we call each other, as in "Hey a**hat, how goes life as a mushroom?").
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:28 PM   #33
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Better get rid of my Tesla and wait a few years to buy a new hatchback EV that may or may not come to the states because my $20 cooler doesn't fit inside it....

Seriously though, how big was the cooler? limiting dimensions in a model 3 trunk are 37w 42d 18h.
Not trying to stand up for the model 3, but unsurprisingly the trunks of compact sedans are compact.
It was a Yeti.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Torque declines as speed increases, just like an ICE. There are absolutely benefits to geared transmissions in EV. If there weren't, formula e race cars wouldn't be utilizing them.

Necessary on a Leaf? No. On a performance car? It's certainly got benefits, especially with top speed capabilities.
As stated it is used to bring the weight from batteries and motor size down. If we reach a point where there is enough power to break traction to say 100 MPH with minimal weight impacts, then a gear box wouldn't be needed in a road use car. For track use, sure as you have to worry about top speed and high end acceleration.

Edit to clarify: I think we will soon come to a point where the choice will be to add 100lbs of batteries, or 100 lbs of transmission that will also add 7% drivetrain loss.

It's not a good choice unless the goal is to add to the experience.

Last edited by mhoward1; 09-11-2019 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:06 PM   #35
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My point was it's not a Tesla Model 3 issue, it's a compact sedan issue. Sedans are just horrible when it comes to usable cargo space, one of the (many) reasons I won't buy a newer WRX or STi, is because it's a sedan.
If I didn't need usable cargo space like in a wagon or hatch (eg. if I didn't have a child) I wouldn't have four freaking doors either.

I do like the ID lineup though, sad we in the US are getting the damn crossover first (because Murricans love Crossovers), I'd rather the buzz; my next question will be how many nannies will VW let you turn off? I'm not planning a buzzkhana or anything, just want to drive a damn vehicle without it imposing some a**-hat engineers will on me because he or she was forced to design for the lowest common denominator (should note: I too am an a**-hat engineer, that's just what we call each other, as in "Hey a**hat, how goes life as a mushroom?").
Right, and my initial point was that the ID.3 is a more practical vehicle, so it's gets a +1 from me. That's all. I, like you, will not buy a sedan, hence why I branched out to VW. Similarly, I will not buy a tesla until they start selling a shoebox hatch. Model Y is not a hatch, it's a model 3 with a liftgate like a fastback, and gets a hard pass from me. The shape of this ID.3 is perfect.

My car has all the available VW nannies. I can turn every single one of them off. I leave the lane keep assist off because it sucks. I leave the emergency braking on unless I feel like driving like a hoon. One big downside is they don't provide a dumb cruise control, just adaptive.
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:43 AM   #36
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Right, and my initial point was that the ID.3 is a more practical vehicle, so it's gets a +1 from me. That's all. I, like you, will not buy a sedan, hence why I branched out to VW. Similarly, I will not buy a tesla until they start selling a shoebox hatch. Model Y is not a hatch, it's a model 3 with a liftgate like a fastback, and gets a hard pass from me. The shape of this ID.3 is perfect.

My car has all the available VW nannies. I can turn every single one of them off. I leave the lane keep assist off because it sucks. I leave the emergency braking on unless I feel like driving like a hoon. One big downside is they don't provide a dumb cruise control, just adaptive.
Do you use a VAGcom/other OBDII module to disable traction control? That irks the hell out of me, the need to buy something aftermarket to turn off traction control.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:33 AM   #37
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One big downside is they don't provide a dumb cruise control, just adaptive.
Agree on 90% of this, but I actually prefer the adaptive/smart cruise controls. having to turn off/reset the cruise because of a 5 MPH slowdown in traffic can get annoying.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:48 AM   #38
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Do you use a VAGcom/other OBDII module to disable traction control? That irks the hell out of me, the need to buy something aftermarket to turn off traction control.
The R has a TC button next to the shifter... one press puts it into sport mode where it basically lets you get a little goofy, but not crazy (also turns off emergency braking). A long press turns it off completely (minus the haldex controller, since that's all based on various inputs and sensors). On previous years, the button had slightly different functions that people used OBD11 or vcds to change the function to the way that the 18 came from the factory. I rarely put it into full off mode, sport is enough for the street, imo. Sport also worked well for driving in the snow, letting me brake traction intentionally when I wanted.

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Agree on 90% of this, but I actually prefer the adaptive/smart cruise controls. having to turn off/reset the cruise because of a 5 MPH slowdown in traffic can get annoying.
I like ACC in some situations, but not most. I wish I had the ability to switch between the two. With a single lane of travel, ACC is awesome. With more than one lane, it's frustrating once the road gets a little more busy.

Following distance, even at the closest, isn't close enough for most highway situations I encounter on a regular basis. If using it, I constantly get people trying to zip around me, cutting me off, then the car slams on the brakes, and the process keeps repeating. It'd be more useful for me if I could adjust it to cut down the following distance beyond the closest setting. However, I recognize that following distance is a little below what a manufacturer could build into their system, so it just is what it is. I turn it off in those situations and just drive.

Where I wish it was a little more like stupid cruise control, is in situations where I'm approaching a slower moving car, and either going to move left to pass them, or would like to get into that "hey, I'm behind you" zone that's not quite tailgating, but not quite happy with the current speed. I find the ACC is more in that "I'm happy with your speed" zone, and doesn't always trigger the driver in front to realize that they need to move over.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:03 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
The R has a TC button next to the shifter... one press puts it into sport mode where it basically lets you get a little goofy, but not crazy (also turns off emergency braking). A long press turns it off completely (minus the haldex controller, since that's all based on various inputs and sensors). On previous years, the button had slightly different functions that people used OBD11 or vcds to change the function to the way that the 18 came from the factory. I rarely put it into full off mode, sport is enough for the street, imo. Sport also worked well for driving in the snow, letting me brake traction intentionally when I wanted.
It was my understanding the US spec TC can't be completely disabled; it's basically "traction control light" instead of full-on traction control.

I experienced it in a 2018 GTI where I held the button for however long it needed to be held (6 seconds? can't recall exactly) the ECU cut power when wheel spin occurred; it would allow a little slip without intervening, like a chirp off the line, but once the tires started to spin it was like hitting a brick wall with how aggressively it cut power.

Maybe it's not as noticeable in an R where four drive wheels are involved, but it's my understanding you also can't disable ESP/ESC completely without paying the aftermarket for help; it will let you have a little fun, but no more than the VAG approved amount of fun.

Not trying to knock you or the Golf R, I just have an issue with VAG forcing nannies on me; I understand that manufacturers are required to install them to comply legally, but they should be defeatable, doubly so when there is a button and a light that specifically say "yeah, nannies are off" when in reality, it's just a slightly longer leash.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
The R has a TC button next to the shifter... one press puts it into sport mode where it basically lets you get a little goofy, but not crazy (also turns off emergency braking). A long press turns it off completely (minus the haldex controller, since that's all based on various inputs and sensors). On previous years, the button had slightly different functions that people used OBD11 or vcds to change the function to the way that the 18 came from the factory. I rarely put it into full off mode, sport is enough for the street, imo. Sport also worked well for driving in the snow, letting me brake traction intentionally when I wanted.


I like ACC in some situations, but not most. I wish I had the ability to switch between the two. With a single lane of travel, ACC is awesome. With more than one lane, it's frustrating once the road gets a little more busy.

Following distance, even at the closest, isn't close enough for most highway situations I encounter on a regular basis. If using it, I constantly get people trying to zip around me, cutting me off, then the car slams on the brakes, and the process keeps repeating. It'd be more useful for me if I could adjust it to cut down the following distance beyond the closest setting. However, I recognize that following distance is a little below what a manufacturer could build into their system, so it just is what it is. I turn it off in those situations and just drive.

Where I wish it was a little more like stupid cruise control, is in situations where I'm approaching a slower moving car, and either going to move left to pass them, or would like to get into that "hey, I'm behind you" zone that's not quite tailgating, but not quite happy with the current speed. I find the ACC is more in that "I'm happy with your speed" zone, and doesn't always trigger the driver in front to realize that they need to move over.
Ah, the three I have experience with have various items I like and dislike. The Caddy and Subaru ones lets you set distance down to almost one car and at highway speeds thatís plenty close.

The Nissan is further but handles cut offs and people turning much better, plus it goes to a complete stop at lights and congestion without disengaging
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Old 09-12-2019, 03:29 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
It was my understanding the US spec TC can't be completely disabled; it's basically "traction control light" instead of full-on traction control.

I experienced it in a 2018 GTI where I held the button for however long it needed to be held (6 seconds? can't recall exactly) the ECU cut power when wheel spin occurred; it would allow a little slip without intervening, like a chirp off the line, but once the tires started to spin it was like hitting a brick wall with how aggressively it cut power.

Maybe it's not as noticeable in an R where four drive wheels are involved, but it's my understanding you also can't disable ESP/ESC completely without paying the aftermarket for help; it will let you have a little fun, but no more than the VAG approved amount of fun.

Not trying to knock you or the Golf R, I just have an issue with VAG forcing nannies on me; I understand that manufacturers are required to install them to comply legally, but they should be defeatable, doubly so when there is a button and a light that specifically say "yeah, nannies are off" when in reality, it's just a slightly longer leash.
In the 18+ R, a single press puts it into that "little fun" mode. Full press turns it all off. GTI has different settings for that button, and you have to change it with obd11 or vcds. For me, single press is ESC Sport. Full press is ESP/ESC OFF.

And it's not just VAG. In the current WRX, IIRC, you cannot turn off VDC. You can in the STI, but not the WRX. Sounds like the GTI/R have a similar relationship. Except at least with VAG it's a simple $95 tool which you probably want to invest in anyway, because it allows you to turn on a lot of cool features that aren't available in the NAR market. Like window up/down with the remote. Or having the clock auto-adjust for daylight savings. The list of things you can change is huge... and lets you actually do the things you think the car should be able to do in the first place.

Last edited by dwf137; 09-12-2019 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 03:33 PM   #42
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Ah, the three I have experience with have various items I like and dislike. The Caddy and Subaru ones lets you set distance down to almost one car and at highway speeds thatís plenty close.

The Nissan is further but handles cut offs and people turning much better, plus it goes to a complete stop at lights and congestion without disengaging
Distance is adjustable, but just seems too far out for me. I absolutely cannot get to one car length, it's probably more like 3, which honestly is a relatively safe distance, it's just too far for congested driving.
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