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Old 08-13-2019, 01:22 PM   #426
User_Name_1944
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So overall recommendations...yes get the kit?
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Old 08-24-2019, 11:02 PM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by User_Name_1944 View Post
So overall recommendations...yes get the kit?
Would like to know the same, saw this on youtube today, first time I've ever heard of this.

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Old 09-07-2019, 04:14 PM   #428
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First off, thanks to Dom for doing the research and work to offer this product to the community. And for providing an explanation of how the kit works. Without a question, he has more knowledge and experience with the EJ platform than most in this thread.

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but may have missed it with all of the derailing in this thread..

Did anyone notice that while the EGTs that he shared have a smaller delta and show lower temps for cylinder 4, the average EGT across the cylinders has increased by 18 degrees?

EGTs without the kit (848, 832, 827, 901) - AFR: 13.4
Min: 827
Max: 901
Avg: 852
Range: 74

EGTs with the kit (874, 862, 865, 882) - AFR: ??
Min: 862
Max: 882
Avg: 870.75
Range: 20



This could very well just be the result of his testing conditions. It would be insightful to know his testing methodology for the before & after EGT measurements. How were the EGTs measured? Were ELH or UELH used on the test car? What were the ambient temperatures? How long had the engine been running? Were the EGTs taken at idle, while driving, WOT? What were the coolant, oil, and IAT temperatures? What were the Air/Fuel ratios? Was there a single 'downstream' EGT measured as well? Obviously there are a lot of variables and not all of them are controllable, but they will impact the results.

The higher average could simply be the result of 'harsher' testing conditions and demonstrate that the kit is still able to lower the cylinder 4 temperature even as the temperatures of the other cylinders increase. The smaller delta across cylinders can offer an advantage for tuning and the lower temps for cylinder 4 may help keep it happier. I'm just curious if this impacts overall cooling or flow in a negative way. Just hoping to see some more testing results.

Has anyone monitored the change in avg/max coolant temp or EGT after adding the kit? Have the temps increased, decreased or stayed the same?

Sorry.. I have a science background and prefer to see data and controlled testing conditions

And for those that will say it:
... yes, I know I could/should spend the $85 for his kit, do the testing myself, and report back.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-07-2019 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 09-07-2019, 05:37 PM   #429
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My main concern would be if adding the additional coolant passage disrupts flow in a negative way. The pressure differential created by this mod should theoretically reduce flow to the other side of the engine. This could raise the average running temperature on the RH side of the engine (cylinders 1 & 3) by preventing sufficient coolant from flowing through the crossover pipe to the right cylinder bank. This will also impact the turbo temperature (and potentially its usable lifetime) since it receives coolant flow from that side. Reducing the flow to the RH side would ultimately reduce the flow through the radiator resulting in increased coolant temps. Which of course is probably why Dom tested various diameters

As I pointed out earlier, the average EGT increased by 18 degrees with the kit. This is largely due to the RH's EGTs increasing by 32 degrees. The LH's average EGT stayed relatively consistent (within 5.5 degrees).

This obviously proves my concern of causing the RH side to run significantly hotter, right? Not quite.. As you can see below, the between bank EGTs (RH vs LH) are actually much closer with the kit (balanced EGTs between cylinder banks = a good thing). However, the average EGT did increase which could be bad if that correlates to an increase in overall coolant temperature. Again, knowing the testing conditions and coolant temps would help draw a better conclusion here. We're just theorizing at this point.

Without kit:
Left side avg: 866.5 (832, 901)
Right side avg: 837.5 (848, 827)
Bank delta: 29 degrees (left side hotter)

With kit:
Left side avg: 872 (862, 882) - increase of 5.5 degrees
Right side avg: 869.5 (874, 865) - increase of 32 degrees)
Bank Delta: 2.5 degrees (balanced)

We have to keep in mind that we're analyzing EGTs in the before & after comparison rather than coolant temperatures per cylinder. EGTs can be influenced by a lot of factors (AFR, timing, etc.). Coolant temperatures would be much harder to measure per cylinder, but are easier to conceptualize with this kit and would provide a more accurate picture of the product's effectiveness.

You can certainly tell that Dom did his research, spent time developing this product and providing information to the community. I'm absolutely not questioning that. We're just missing some of the data and background info (that he probably has) needed to draw a conclusion.

It's unlikely that this kit would cause any real issues, but I was just analyzing the EGT data that Dom provided. I doubt there would be a problem considering that some twin turbo JDM models used this passage for cooling the 2nd turbo, but we all know Subaru's have other issues that they can be a bit slow to fix I'm sure that if there was a real issue we would have heard of it by now. So then then question just becomes the effectiveness of the kit as the theory behind it is logical.

Conclusion
Assuming that the testing conditions were controlled. We can draw the following conclusions:
  1. The EGTs are more consistent (balanced) between all 4 cylinders with the cylinder 4 cooling kit
  2. The EGTs are more consistent (balanced) between the the RH & LH cylinder banks
  3. The overall average EGT increased with the kit
Unfortunately, we need to have coolant temperature measurements to prove that this kit fixes a "huge imbalance" caused by "inadequate cooling". That's not to say that it doesn't do that or offer any benefit. We just can't scientifically draw that conclusion based on the data that we have. Time will tell if it prevents cylinder 4 failures.

Disclaimer: I am not an engineer or by any means an expert in thermodynamics or fluid dynamics.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-10-2019 at 10:49 AM. Reason: Updated
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:10 PM   #430
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A higher average egt could be the result of being able to tune it more effectively knowing the leanest cylinder will now be running a safer temperature, thus being able to turn up the wick for all cylinders. Since the vast majority of us don't run individual egt and a/f sensors, this theoretically allows safer tuning with more available power.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:27 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
A higher average egt could be the result of being able to tune it more effectively knowing the leanest cylinder will now be running a safer temperature, thus being able to turn up the wick for all cylinders. Since the vast majority of us don't run individual egt and a/f sensors, this theoretically allows safer tuning with more available power.
Completely agree on the theory of what the kit could provide for tuning and reliability. The theory behind the product absolutely makes sense just like the benefits of swapping to an ELH to balance backpressure across cylinders and improve the EGTs. However, the variables should be minimized for the test results to be accurate. If the car was retuned after the kit was installed then the EGTs aren't meaningful as you can alter the AFR and timing to skew the results in any direction. Of course I'm not accusing Dom of this by any means, we just need that information to draw an accurate conclusion as a consumer.

Edit: Updated my 2 posts up above with additional information.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-09-2019 at 09:43 PM. Reason: update
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:31 AM   #432
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I'd like to also thank Dom for the contribution right up front. I like this idea, and the new thinking on how to make the EJ safer is a breath of fresh air.
I'm an engineer, and I sometimes dabble in thermal modelling, what follows is my reaction on reading through this whole thread for the past 40 min...I'll try and steer clear of the emotions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
A higher average egt could be the result of being able to tune it more effectively knowing the leanest cylinder will now be running a safer temperature, thus being able to turn up the wick for all cylinders.
This is my concern - without knowing the conditions of each of the test scenarios, it's really hard to make any quantitative conclusion on this coolant modification.

In an ideal world, the before and after tests would only change one thing, and one thing only - this coolant path modification.

Tests should be run with the same ambient air temperature, pressure and humidity.

Tests should be run at steady-state loads, for long enough time to provide thermal equilibrium, and data logging should only occur during steady-state thermal equilibrium.

I'd like to see the impact on cylinder pressure curves, EGT, water temperature, water pressure, AFR, knock events etc...when only changing a single parameter - this coolant hose mod.
I'd even go so far as to setup contact-temperature-probes at strategic locations on the engine block and head (similar to these: https://www.ibuttonlink.com/products/ds1922e)

Instead, all we have are two pictures of EGT's, and thats it.

I don't know Dom, but I trust the opinions of other giants in the field who do, for all intents he seems like a straight up kind dude who's contributing to making the EJ platform a more reliable, powerful platform for enthusiasts.

Innovators have a right to make a return on their innovation, bullying the guy for that seems really not cash-money guys, way to stifle innovation.

That being said, I can't put money down where the data that is provided, doesn't paint a convincingly full picture of just exactly what this mod is doing - regardless if its from Dom direct, or an alternative parts supplier.

I love the idea, but this really does need more data.

Last edited by cerberus_oz; 09-18-2019 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:36 PM   #433
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^ Agreed. I'd gladly pay more for the kit if sufficient test data was provided.

If there's truly inadequate flow around cylinder 4 causing it to run hotter, where's the proof and why haven't Subaru engineers figured that out and fixed it over the years? It could certainly reduce warranty claims for a negligible increase in manufacturing cost.

Dom originally posted this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom;
Cylinder 4 fails first regardless of the intake manifold used.
Cylinder 4 fails first regardless of the exhaust manifold used.
Cylinder 4 fails first regardless of IAT, Intercooling, tuning etc.
Cylinder 4 fails first regardless of EMS or fuel setup.

*unless you intentionally add more fuel and remove timing from cylinder 4 of course. You'd have to give it more fuel than other cylinders and less timing.

That all proves a huge imbalance. What's the source of the imbalance? Inadequate Cooling.
Which I fixed.

My mod is proven to cool the head (allowing it to wick more heat from the chamber), as shown by both EGTs and Surface temps, that means it's just providing improved reverse cooling and aluminum head benefits. No other data should be needed. However, many customers have written me about more balanced temps, lower operating temps, near elimination of random knock events etc. I don't know what else to provide to the public.
There's certainly more data that he could have provided to support his product and claims.

Dom initially referred to this as the reverse coolant mod.. except that this mod doesn't "reverse" the flow of coolant. It creates a another negative pressure outlet for the normal flow of coolant. The pressure differential this creates will reduce the coolant flow to the other side of the engine (and through the radiator). This could raise the average running temperature on that side and impact how hot the turbo CHRA will run since it receives coolant flow from the same port on the other head.

"Reverse" cooling is where the coolant enters the cylinder heads first, then flows through the block's water jacket and out to the radiator. This was popular on old Chevy engines so that the heads would receive the coolest coolant first in hopes of reducing detonation (due to poor head design).
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Old 09-22-2019, 03:06 PM   #434
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When you increase flow for one cylinder, you obviously reduce it some for others, assuming flow capacity of the pump doesn't increase. If you are concerned with that, lower your thermostat running temperature and make sure you have effective cooling fans/shrouds with a higher capacity radiator.
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:17 AM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
... If you are concerned with that, then ....
Again, this raises alarm bells.
Simply changing the dynamics of the engine without test data validating what those changes actually do, is how people blow engines up.

It's not cheap to replace blown turbo EJ's....
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:09 PM   #436
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I have 3 of these fittings (oem Subaru, new) available. Let me know if you want them.
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Old 09-28-2019, 03:40 PM   #437
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Interesting information on Cylinder 1 & 4's exhaust port design and theory on how it may influence cylinder head heat retention and cause higher EGTs for those cylinders even with an ELH.. let alone an UELH.


The FA20 heads appear to have a similar exhaust port design.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-28-2019 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 09-28-2019, 03:47 PM   #438
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I also wonder if the boxer engine design contributes to cylinder 4 failures at all. The downside of a boxer 4 engine from a balance perspective is that pistons don’t sit directly across from one another. The opposing pair of cylinders are slightly offset from each other along the crankshaft. This means they can create a torque that wants to rotate the engine about the vertical axis and create a rocking motion. This rotational moment could in theory accumulate at cylinder 4 and possibly cause deformation. The flat 6 design doesn't have this problem.


But then I would expect to see the same issue with the FA20 and Porsche flat 4s (like the Cayman 718).

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-28-2019 at 04:42 PM. Reason: added video
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Old 11-26-2019, 04:54 PM   #439
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I thought this would be the best place to ask - for those who have used the OEM Subaru water bypass plug that comes with the red thread seal preinstalled - did you use additional sealant on the threads/flat face or did it seal just fine?
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Old 11-26-2019, 07:18 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdrewq View Post
I thought this would be the best place to ask - for those who have used the OEM Subaru water bypass plug that comes with the red thread seal preinstalled - did you use additional sealant on the threads/flat face or did it seal just fine?
I used an OEM unit, with the red sealant pre-installed. I did not add any sealant and have been leak free, its been about 3k miles since I installed it.
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Old 02-02-2020, 04:23 PM   #441
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$1 reducer from home depot that has almost the perfect sizing of 10mm, just insert this copper reducer inside the 5/8" hose and you are done. The copper reducer is a very snug fit so it won't go anywhere. No need for special fittings.


Last edited by lowbee; 02-02-2020 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 02-02-2020, 05:14 PM   #442
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So long as the hose grips it securely, with no barbs that could be sketchy.
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Old 02-03-2020, 08:12 AM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus_oz View Post
I love the idea, but this really does need more data.
This is an aftermarket part... I mean did you ask Subaru for their engine cooling model when you bought the car new?

Us engineers involved in modding cars always want more data but it's just not a reality in the aftermarket part world where everyone already complains about the price.

Dom has tested more cars than the vast majority of people involved in the Subaru world, the idea makes sense, the idea has proved worthwhile in his tests. He's providing this mod with some test results to show the effectiveness.

To expect thousands of dollars in testing and data analysis is just not reality... not to mention any engineering data he does have i'm sure he wouldn't share. Look how many companies have already copied his design.

Anywho, i don't know Dom, I have his coolant mod... and I got it because the theory of it makes sense... My car runs doesn't have individual egts so i can't comment on that, it does run very cool... like 180deg most times... but I also have a completely custom radiator setup that I did at the same time as the coolant mod.
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Old 03-25-2020, 01:56 PM   #444
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Are people really trippin over breaking a $100 bill for a mod that has shown potentially lower, more even and reliable cylinder temps? I would wager my own $100 bill that I could find AT LEAST that much spent on Vinyl wrap, stickers, LED lighting mods, canards, fake tows, untuned CAIs, etc in every doubters car right now. Some people spending $1500 on ELH and its only a band-aid in comparison to what this $80 mod will do
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:37 PM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KENTEND0 View Post
Are people really trippin over breaking a $100 bill for a mod that has shown potentially lower, more even and reliable cylinder temps? I would wager my own $100 bill that I could find AT LEAST that much spent on Vinyl wrap, stickers, LED lighting mods, canards, fake tows, untuned CAIs, etc in every doubters car right now. Some people spending $1500 on ELH and its only a band-aid in comparison to what this $80 mod will do
Except that maybe its worse...

Also keep in mind where your knock sensor is
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:29 PM   #446
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Those of you that have done this mod and still under factory warranty, how does your dealership or SOA view this mod?

I am sure it will be just another ammunition for them for them to void the warranty like any other car manufacture would but just wondering if anyone here happens to know what the POV is from behind closed doors.
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:12 PM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TifosiWA View Post
Those of you that have done this mod and still under factory warranty, how does your dealership or SOA view this mod?

I am sure it will be just another ammunition for them for them to void the warranty like any other car manufacture would but just wondering if anyone here happens to know what the POV is from behind closed doors.
I used to work a lot of Field Service related stuff in my previous position at work, OUTSIDE of Subaru, but at an OEM vehicle manufacturer. If you had an engine related claim and they noticed this, it ABSOLUTLY would be used against you because it's not OEM and could maybe have caused a failure.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:20 PM   #448
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Magnuson Moss Act
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:06 PM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Magnuson Moss Act
/\ Only applies to direct replacement parts like tires, brake pads, piston rings, etc., not hot rodding parts. If you knowingly modify an assembly using parts that were never installed in the first place, that is what voids your warranty.

That's not to say you couldn't pony up for a lawyer who would argue on your behalf that the Cylinder 4 Cooling Kit had zero effect on your blown driver's side head gasket, or electrolysis'd cylinder heads, but that would be more money than it was worth.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:18 PM   #450
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The real question is how can they prove the parts you put on caused the failure. And is it legitimate.
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