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Old 05-18-2020, 06:14 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default New EU7 emissions standard to end downsized turbo engine trend and sound death knell



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Porsche says the new Euro 7 emissions legislation due in 2026 will mark the end of both naturally-aspirated engines and the current trend towards downsized turbo engines for all car-makers.

That’s because, somewhat counter-intuitively, the EU7 standard – which aims to more closely align laboratory CO2 emissions with those achievable in the real world – will put a limit on relative power per litre.

“In 2026, the next wave of regulations will come with EU7. This will be the worldwide toughest regulations considering emissions, especially in the spread between real driving emissions and what we see on the test benches,” said Porsche 911 and 718 model line chief Frank-Steffen Walliser.

“We will see a big change because it means – for everybody – new engines and we will see bigger displacements coming back again.”

For Porsche specifically, Walliser says the result will be a bigger turbocharged flat-six for the Porsche 911.

expect 20 per cent more displacement on average for these EU7-capable engines. A lot of manufacturers will jump from four to six, from six to eight [cylinders],” he explains.

“The regulations are completely counterproductive to CO2 regulations, so this will go up. You cannot fulfil all the standards without spending fuel. It sounds crazy but it’s a technical fact at the moment.

“This new regulation is really difficult to fulfil because we will have different cold-start emissions and bigger catalytic converters. When I’m talking bigger, I’m talking a factor of three to four times more, so there will be a small chemical industrial factory in the car to really control this.

“This means all-new engines and especially for the 911 this gets really, really difficult. But we will never give up. Whatever it takes, we will do it. We want to keep six-cylinders, for sure, but we will have to overwork it.

“We will have to make a new engine. That’s the fact. Again.”

Porsche developed an all-new, downsized 3.0-litre twin-turbo flat-six for Carrera versions of its previous 991-series 911, leaving only selected models including the race-bred GT3 to continue with normal-aspiration.

Along with Audi’s V10-powered R8 and, until recently, the Maserati GranTurismo, the highly responsive and high-revving Porsche 911 GT3 remains powered by one of the few non-turbo big-bore engines available in the performance car world.

Sadly, however, Walliser confirmed EU7 would also spell the end of the naturally-aspirated engine for Porsche within a decade.

“At the moment, we only see a turbo solution. Naturally aspirated, not really,” he admitted.

Walliser said markets with less strict emissions standards, like Australia and the US, could in theory continue to receive non-turbo models like the current GT3. But he confirmed that limited sales volumes in markets like ours would prevent different engines being offered in different markets.

“Now maybe you are in the right part of the world, in Australia. This is a European solution. It [normal-aspiration] could work in other parts of the world, as Australia is close to the US regulations…

“Technically, yes. If you offered something different. But this [problem] is market size, investment, volume, you know.

“There will come a day, within the next 10 years, when we have to say ‘Now this is the last of its kind’.”
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Old 05-18-2020, 07:04 AM   #2
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Soooo....rip FA24?
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Old 05-18-2020, 07:41 AM   #3
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“We will see a big change because it means – for everybody – new engines and we will see bigger displacements coming back again.”
I have NO problem with that!!! Anyone? Anyone? *crickets*

--kC
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:40 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
I have NO problem with that!!! Anyone? Anyone? *crickets*

--kC
I have no problem with more displacement and cylinders; I detested the reduced displacement+turbo movement; it never panned out in the real world. However increased costs for the R&D of new ICE always means EV and/or hybridization becomes more appealing/viable for manufacturers.

Still waiting/hoping for the "less car" movement to happen (lighter materials => smaller engine => lighter drivetrain => reduced emissions & increased fuel economy with same/better crash worthiness).
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:33 AM   #5
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You cannot fulfil all the standards without spending fuel
So MPG goes down then?
I thought the whole move to smaller engines was due to the MPG requirements.
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:46 AM   #6
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"The regulations are completely counterproductive to CO2 reguations..."

Large governmental regulatory bodies gonna large governmental regulatory body.
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:11 AM   #7
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It will be interesting to see how the regulations goals change as ICE becomes a smaller and smaller percentage of total car purchases over the next 10 to 15 years.

Because governments are responsive to current trends. /s
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:15 AM   #8
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So MPG goes down then?
I thought the whole move to smaller engines was due to the MPG requirements.
The MPG requirements are determined on test cycles that have very mild driving, or the aggressive driving portion is only a small portion of the final calculation. It applies for both Euro and US cycles. There's a realistic (heavy acceleration to highway speeds) portion but much more of the testing is based on stop and go city type traffic.

So when you drive in the real world and hook up portable emission measurement equipment, the emissions that occur under boost/heavy loaded driving spike. That's CO and particulate in gasoline direct injection and NOx/particulate in diesel. To fix that you basically need a bigger engine that doesn't work so hard, which is then carrying around the extra weight and friction in lighter loaded driving.

Then it just becomes easier to spend money on electric motors and batteries as full BEV or strong hybrids, or play regulatory games for regulatory credit (add some device and do paperwork to demonstrate the CO2 benefit in the real world).

There's always been a tradeoff between tailpipe air quality emissions and fuel consumption/CO2. Back in the 70s they tightened up tailpipe air quality emissions faster than fuel economy/CO2 type regulations. So they had these emission systems called thermal reactors instead of cats. With that system the car drove around running rich all the time with retarded spark, then pumped air into the exhaust manifolds to burn it up. Fuel economy was terrible but tailpipe emissions were clean by the standards of the day. 70s Porsches and 70s Mazda rotary engines used that type of system for example.

Last edited by arghx7; 05-18-2020 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by vapore0n View Post
So MPG goes down then?
I thought the whole move to smaller engines was due to the MPG requirements.
There are several things being discussed here.

1.) increased/stricter standards on the horizon and how to deal with them
2.) going from bench/lab testing as the standard to real world use testing as the standard
3.) MPG vs. emission standards - they both exist, but are arguably unrelated when it comes to regulation (dependent on country)

The move to smaller engines with turbos was for fuel economy compliance; in testing (bench/dyno), generally results were better with a smaller engine and turbo. Under "normal" conditions only the 1.xL engine is being utilized, and the turbo is only used under extreme conditions/heavy load.
However in real world testing (eg. simulating soccer moms living one quarter mile at a time) this was found to not always be the case, and that the turbo was being used most of the time, negating the benefit of the small engine/turbo combo.

Reading between the lines/half-hearted attempt at a joke - VAG is upset they won't be able to have a dyno-specific ECU tune to trick regulators anymore
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Old 05-18-2020, 12:41 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
...

Reading between the lines/half-hearted attempt at a joke - VAG is upset they won't be able to have a dyno-specific ECU tune to trick regulators anymore
spot on
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Old 05-18-2020, 12:59 PM   #11
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My 5 liter 4 cylinder catalytic convertor is bigger than yours. So is my 14 speed gearbox.
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Old 05-18-2020, 02:06 PM   #12
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ITS AN ANTI AUTO AGENDA AND PRO TAX YOU FOR EVERY BREATH OR THING YOU DO.
LEAVE EU RULES TO EU and let USA do as they see best for themselves. Tax EU autos same as they tax USA cars in EU, 10% across the board
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Old 05-18-2020, 02:13 PM   #13
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Looks like you’ve had too much to think citizen.
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Old 05-18-2020, 04:48 PM   #14
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Soooo....rip FA24?
Euro7 regulations, not for North America.
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Old 05-18-2020, 11:36 PM   #15
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Euro7 regulations, not for North America.
Eurotrash regulations have a way of screwing the North American market, see hood line height for details.
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Old 05-19-2020, 03:29 AM   #16
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Euro7 regulations, not for North America.
It’s a global economy and most vehicle models are world models now sold in many markets. Eu regs affect us all. The ICE to EV transition will be rapid going forward. In ten years the automobile landscape will be vastly different. The pandemic will force different timelines by automobile manufacturers. They’ll shaft ICE models in favor of EV transition due to economic loss. Enthusiasts who keep a job (Unemployment could hit 20-25% this year if this thing does not chill out) should be picking a performance variant they can afford as performance ICE vehicles will get axed. Get them while you can.
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Old 05-19-2020, 07:19 AM   #17
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1.6liter v8's for everybody
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:10 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Enthusiasts who keep a job (Unemployment could hit 20-25% this year if this thing does not chill out) should be picking a performance variant they can afford as performance ICE vehicles will get axed. Get them while you can.
See, this sucks. There’s nothing I really want right now. Nothing that tickles my fancy. SO many next-gen ICE vehicles are so close to release. They better not freakin’ kill their release. I need one last hoorah before the soulless auto battery mobiles take over.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:41 AM   #19
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The big difference you will see between Euro and US market will be aftertreatment (gasoline particulate filters on basically everything in europe, which is already underway) and the volume mix of powertrain options. So for example the hybrid models might be built in much higher share in Europe, they may not offer the more powerful engines, etc. Also there will be higher EV mix. This assumes no drastic changes in regulatory direction.
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:16 AM   #20
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1.6liter v8's for everybody
I would buy this in a Miata in a heartbeat.

Make it rev to the moon!
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Old 05-19-2020, 01:16 PM   #21
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See, this sucks. There’s nothing I really want right now. Nothing that tickles my fancy. SO many next-gen ICE vehicles are so close to release. They better not freakin’ kill their release. I need one last hoorah before the soulless auto battery mobiles take over.

Same boat man. I've got my eye on a couple of used supercharged RWD models but I really want AWD because of my bikes. I see little point in buying an additional vehicle that does NOT perform in inclement weather as a performance car. Nothing worse to me then dropping 40-50k on something and in the regular heavy rain we get, performs like a bitch.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:59 PM   #22
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I would buy this in a Miata in a heartbeat.

Make it rev to the moon!
Remember the 1.6l v6 they put in the MX-3? Goofy car, but I heard that engine was a fun time.
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Old 05-21-2020, 01:17 AM   #23
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CONFORM!
- EU
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:29 AM   #24
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Reading between the lines/half-hearted attempt at a joke - VAG is upset they won't be able to have a dyno-specific ECU tune to trick regulators anymore
Yeah I'm more inclined to agree with this than anything Porsche/VW (or most automakers) has to say. They always bitch and whine whenever there's new regulation - and most of the time that's because getting them to do anything proper is like pulling tooth.

How anyone can believe VW (and all their brands) after the dyno fiasco is beyond me.
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:54 AM   #25
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Remember the 1.6l v6 they put in the MX-3? Goofy car, but I heard that engine was a fun time.
Yes! Mazda had a whole line of tiny V6 engines in the 90's
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