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Old 07-30-2020, 11:23 PM   #351
RealDealTarheel
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If the herd was in charge the only options would be gigantic trucks, even bigger SUVs and 5000 lb muscle cars all with 8.0L 1000 hp supercharged V8s, because thats the only kind of fast dumbass Americans think exists
lol wat? I see this parroted around these parts quite a bit, the old "Americans are dumb and only want straight line" line. It's wrong. The track capability of the 1LE SS Camaro's, PP2 Mustang GT's, GT350's and Corvettes are counter to this. Not to mention all manner of imports that Americans buy.

There's a demographic who still likes drag racing for sure, but the days of straight-line performance hegemony in the American enthusiast market are over. Truck buying will never go away though, it's just who we are.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:24 AM   #352
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lol wat? I see this parroted around these parts quite a bit, the old "Americans are dumb and only want straight line" line. It's wrong. The track capability of the 1LE SS Camaro's, PP2 Mustang GT's, GT350's and Corvettes are counter to this.
Yes and no. Iíve driven all these cars you mentioned, as well as ZL1, and C7 variants. They are all quite large cars and heavy. Capable yes, but big and heavy AF.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:06 AM   #353
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Yes and no. Iíve driven all these cars you mentioned, as well as ZL1, and C7 variants. They are all quite large cars and heavy. Capable yes, but big and heavy AF.
Yep, you either get lightweight with an NA I4, or a fatty with an engine; nothing in the middle, and certainly nothing lightweight with power.

It's like Uncle Ben said, with great power, comes great vehicular mass; or something like that..

The herd generally likes CUV's and fuel economy, they don't care about performance.

Jeep bros will be Jeep bros, diesel douches will be diesel douches, etc. but they are all in the minority when compared to the vanilla CUV crowd.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:45 AM   #354
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That's a big no from me, just came from the Toyota dealership. They didn't have a new one on the lot but did have a used 2020. That small windshield is a deal breaker, period. I would definitely drive it in a manual version and try to persuade myself but forward visibility is awful. Seated, I fit fine even though I'm tall. But I did bump my head getting in it so I learned ingress/egress real quick. That windshield is a deal killer, even with a manual. I need to see, especially in a performance car. My GT350 test drives last week, the Shelby has better forward visibility even with the longer hood. And the 2017 M2 was better than either.

I left saying to myself, you dumb MAFK's, I could have left your dealership with a $1000 deposit on a Yaris GR4 with the diffs. I'd damn near break my wrist writing you a non-refundable deposit. :crickets:
So tired of the herd dictating what we get here. I think the Supra is going to bomb with sales.

Oh the dealership was absolutely dead sans some hot 20's blond in modern day Daisy Dukes with ripped legs in the used showroom. Almost broke my neck. I wonder where she works out, I need to change gyms

It’s a snug cabin for sure. I felt the same as you initially , but within 5 minutes of driving one I had adapted. I’d suggest you at least give her a test drive. M2 and GT350 visibility is definitely better though. When I borrow my wife’s Highlander I feel like I’m driving a greenhouse around the windows are sooooo large.

Bring back the Daisy Dukes
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:48 AM   #355
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Default BMW M-powered Toyota Supra GRMN in line for manual gearbox option




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BMW M-powered Toyota Supra GRMN in line for manual gearbox option

The 2023 Toyota Supra GRMN is said to be powered by the same engine as the BMW M4, opening the door for an optional manual transmission.

A high-performance version of the Toyota Supra could eventually become available with the option of a manual transmission, according to respected Japanese publication Mag X.

The Toyota Supra GRMN is expected to be powered by the 3.0-litre twin-turbo six-cylinder engine from the upcoming BMW M3 sedan and M4 coupe, which is said to be available with a high-performance eight-speed auto, or a six-speed manual gearbox.

Power from the BMW M3/M4 engine is expected to be 353kW/600Nm, but rumours out of Japan claim the limited-production Toyota Supra GRMN could have a higher output of 382kW/608Nm.

With the Supra sharing its platform with the BMW Z4 roadster, the powertrain would be an easy swap for a GRMN version of the Toyota Supra Ė with the badge denoting the highest performance level expected.

Though the Supra isn't currently offered with a manual, BMW provides the option of a manual transmission in the Z4 sDrive20i M Sport.

It's understood Toyota will be providing regular updates to the Supra in an effort to keep the model from becoming stale.

With a power bump already planned for 2021, a two-year update cycle would align the GRMN model for a 2023 release.
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Old 07-31-2020, 09:26 AM   #356
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Would that even make sense to put a MT? The GRMN is supposed to be the fastest Supra out of them all and going for time on the Nurb (since it's the Mastero of Nurb or something) AT would make more sense for the GRMN.

I still think it would make sense and invite more enthusiasts by offering MT on the 4 cylinder. Won't have to run the same ratio as the I6, plus more space to work on your own stuff too. The inline6 is a big engine for the Supra's engine bay.. very limited space to do anything.

But I suppose that could eat into the 86's demographics if Supra's were offered on the 4 cylinder.
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Old 07-31-2020, 10:49 AM   #357
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Itís a snug cabin for sure. I felt the same as you initially , but within 5 minutes of driving one I had adapted. Iíd suggest you at least give her a test drive. M2 and GT350 visibility is definitely better though. When I borrow my wifeís Highlander I feel like Iím driving a greenhouse around the windows are sooooo large.

Bring back the Daisy Dukes

I don't need a test drive to test visibility and there is no manual yet. Transmission choice becomes a thing, you bet, I'll drive it. I drive anything and everything I am ever remotely interested in. But from the article it sounds like they'll put in the S55 and that trim will be the only way you can get a manual. In that case, I'd just buy the M2C and be done with it.
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Old 07-31-2020, 11:53 AM   #358
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I don't need a test drive to test visibility and there is no manual yet. Transmission choice becomes a thing, you bet, I'll drive it. I drive anything and everything I am ever remotely interested in. But from the article it sounds like they'll put in the S55 and that trim will be the only way you can get a manual. In that case, I'd just buy the M2C and be done with it.
No, I get it and agree you donít need to test drive to judge visibility. I was just trying to say you may adapt quicker than you think to the smaller greenhouse. I remember I sat in the Supra twice and said no way both times because I felt the same as you. After test driving the SS 1LE I decided to give the Supra a test drive because I adapted to the smaller windows rather quickly. Havenít looked back. On the other hand you may still hate it

If you go the M2C route, you may investigate the UCP mod as a good deal of folks seem to think the stock clutch feel is ďoddĒ.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:43 PM   #359
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Re: crammed interiors. One of the few times my small stature is an advantage in life. I am 5'6 so I fit in just about anything
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:56 PM   #360
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Re: crammed interiors. One of the few times my small stature is an advantage in life. I am 5'6 so I fit in just about anything
I'm looking hard at a final edition S2k right now for you.
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:51 PM   #361
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No, I get it and agree you donít need to test drive to judge visibility. I was just trying to say you may adapt quicker than you think to the smaller greenhouse. I remember I sat in the Supra twice and said no way both times because I felt the same as you. After test driving the SS 1LE I decided to give the Supra a test drive because I adapted to the smaller windows rather quickly. Havenít looked back. On the other hand you may still hate it

If you go the M2C route, you may investigate the UCP mod as a good deal of folks seem to think the stock clutch feel is ďoddĒ.

See I drove the SS 1LE also and I'm the minority, I was not impressed at all. The small window was an issue in it as well but the bigger for me was the size and weight. Throwing big wheels/tires on a heavy and large car like that can make for decent handling, but to me track only. I took the LE on a small twisty route close to the house and I could have burned it in my RS at the time. I don't like large cars, heavy cars, and not spending 50k on poor visibility.



M2C, yeah bushings/SS. First mod would be CBC or VTT Splinelock so I can add DP and tune without worry. 500-600 whp all day!
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:37 PM   #362
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See I drove the SS 1LE also and I'm the minority, I was not impressed at all. The small window was an issue in it as well but the bigger for me was the size and weight. Throwing big wheels/tires on a heavy and large car like that can make for decent handling, but to me track only. I took the LE on a small twisty route close to the house and I could have burned it in my RS at the time. I don't like large cars, heavy cars, and not spending 50k on poor visibility.



M2C, yeah bushings/SS. First mod would be CBC or VTT Splinelock so I can add DP and tune without worry. 500-600 whp all day!
My comments dragging the SS 1le into the story was really to compare the similarities visibility wise and how I adjusted. I kinda already deduced you were more a small car kinda guy

Why’d you ditch the RS? I’m going to guess reliability and/or the dealer network.....the RS sounds like a real carver .
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Old 07-31-2020, 10:56 PM   #363
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Whyíd you ditch the RS? Iím going to guess reliability and/or the dealer network.....the RS sounds like a real carver .

Combo meal of a bunch of different factors. Yes reliability, I had multiple small issues within a few months (low mileage on the car). + the HG snafu. But that was just one slice of the pie. The other major factor was the block itself. The last piece was Honda announcing all 2020 Ridgelines would have ADAS on all trims (f that). The reliability, the block, I just knew it wasn't going to be the long term, 10+ year car I wanted it to be. The timing was right. I got rid of it for 3k less than I paid for it and I got the tax credit on top of that. It was like HG recall (kind of a mild nightmare due to opening the engine), an oil leak (oil supply line), then 1 month later a bad transmission seal. I had 6k and some change on the ODO. + parts were an issue. A member here hit a deer iirc. He needed a new bumper and maybe a new bumper stay as well. His car was parked at the auto body shop for 3 months waiting on parts.



I loved that thing though. The chassis was phenom, road feel, and the GKN Twinster is the best AWD system I have driven. The chassis/road feel/AWD System combination was definitely the one of the best handling cars, if not the best, that I have ever driven. And I have driven many 6 figure cars. The problem with buying a FP product, is you have to put up with Ford to own it.
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:53 AM   #364
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lol wat? I see this parroted around these parts quite a bit, the old "Americans are dumb and only want straight line" line. It's wrong. The track capability of the 1LE SS Camaro's, PP2 Mustang GT's, GT350's and Corvettes are counter to this. Not to mention all manner of imports that Americans buy.

There's a demographic who still likes drag racing for sure, but the days of straight-line performance hegemony in the American enthusiast market are over. Truck buying will never go away though, it's just who we are.
I didn't say anything about straightline performance vs track performance. The average punter only associates cool and fast cars with horsepower and displacement.

And all of those cars are upwards of 3600 lbs and close to or exceeding 4000 lbs. So they're going to devour consumables, and if you want them to have that track capability you're paying a grand a pop on the low end every time you go through a set of tires. They're great as brand new cars, but they'll be money pits as they age. At least if you want to actually use them.
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:29 AM   #365
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I didn't say anything about straightline performance vs track performance. The average punter only associates cool and fast cars with horsepower and displacement.

And all of those cars are upwards of 3600 lbs and close to or exceeding 4000 lbs. So they're going to devour consumables, and if you want them to have that track capability you're paying a grand a pop on the low end every time you go through a set of tires. They're great as brand new cars, but they'll be money pits as they age. At least if you want to actually use them.
Even allowing for this, that discounts the demographic that shops imports. Which, I haven't done a lot of looking around at them to be honest so I don't know, but I'd hazard even those are climbing in weight as well. Save the exotics, maybe.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:33 AM   #366
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I didn't say anything about straightline performance vs track performance. The average punter only associates cool and fast cars with horsepower and displacement.

And all of those cars are upwards of 3600 lbs and close to or exceeding 4000 lbs. So they're going to devour consumables, and if you want them to have that track capability you're paying a grand a pop on the low end every time you go through a set of tires. They're great as brand new cars, but they'll be money pits as they age. At least if you want to actually use them.
A base C7 is 3,347 lb. Thatís hardly a problem for track use. Also, a used C5 is one of the cheapest capable track rats you can buy today. Your statement is nonsensical.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:24 AM   #367
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A base C7 is 3,347 lb. Thatís hardly a problem for track use. Also, a used C5 is one of the cheapest capable track rats you can buy today. Your statement is nonsensical.
Those are not only two cars that weren't mentioned, the C7 is what, 6-7 years old? The C5 is near 20 years old. So not relevant to the comment I was making.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:33 AM   #368
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Even allowing for this, that discounts the demographic that shops imports. Which, I haven't done a lot of looking around at them to be honest so I don't know, but I'd hazard even those are climbing in weight as well. Save the exotics, maybe.
The demographic that shops imports aren't usually the average person that I'm talking about. Even still, the attainable RWD sports cars from the Japanese are all sub 3500, and its mostly the German ones that get over the 3500 lb mark. And I don't know many people that buy the C43 AMG expecting a sports car or fun car.
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Old 08-01-2020, 12:46 PM   #369
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I didn't say anything about straightline performance vs track performance. The average punter only associates cool and fast cars with horsepower and displacement.

And all of those cars are upwards of 3600 lbs and close to or exceeding 4000 lbs. So they're going to devour consumables, and if you want them to have that track capability you're paying a grand a pop on the low end every time you go through a set of tires. They're great as brand new cars, but they'll be money pits as they age. At least if you want to actually use them.
You just mentioned something that many people miss. Like you, and the opposite of most people, when researching a potential vehicle, the first thing I do is check tire replacement. I mean even if Iím just mildly curious about X, I go to tire rack and check HP summer tires, and HP all seasons (our winter tires here down in the south). Then I immediately hit the forum of that potential vehicle and see if I can size down. This trend of 19ís, and 20ís, etc is not anything I like because itís dumb. Most of these things, even the STi and my RS, ship with 19ís and 35 series tires, and some (iirc CTR) have 30 series tires. Out in my twisties, thatís a recipe for a bent rim as maintained pavement is probably 50%. Hell my local tracks I could say the same. Then there are the pads and rotors. So consumables is the first thing I check. Most that buy used ďman I got a great deal on this pony thingĒ and Iím like yeah, but tires bro. I just got done driving a Ď17 and a Ď19 GT350 b2b, as I havenít driven one in 3 years. Weight, size, and tire cost (and canít really downsize rims) nixed that, well actually reliability was the biggest factor. But the tire costs are insane and they burn through them quick if you are going to drive it as intended. I actually know a guy who makes really good money. He drives an upper end performance car short shifting it, only getting on the throttle on highway on ramps, to spare fuel and tires. That kind of defeats the purpose of it to me. Like buying a Porsche and doing hyper miling. Just dumb to me.

Then there is the insurance. Iíve got a number of vehicles and actually have my bikes and PWC insured pretty cheap all things considering. Even with a bunch of expensive parts on my bikes insured, which is optional coverage. Itís the autos that are the killer. $236 a month for a cheap inexpensive DD and a compact truck. 40ís, perfect credit with 800 ish FICO, homeowner, no tix, no accidents, I mean there is nothing else I can do. Auto policy is tied to my homeowners and even with multi vehicle discount, $236 a month. With my other stuff that is around $367. Thatís a fíin car payment on insurance. I want another performance car but insurance is the deal breaker. Those upper trim pony cars, I can insure via specialty, collectible, weekend/night driving with a lower annual mileage limit for $500-600 a year. The more affordable cars like a STi, well the STi is $2000 a year to insure and thatís added to my current policy. That would be 31% of my annual insurance cost which is a deal breaker. It really pisses me off to no end. Iím the only person insured on my policies and I can only ride/drive one at a time but on the autos itís like Iím being charged like both are DDís, both used at the same time and nothing I can do about it. As an enthusiast Iíd be better served moving to another state.

So yeah consumables + insurance. Itís hard to be an enthusiast, first world problems and all. You have to balance purchase price, with reliability, consumables and insurance. Then if you are picky and want an AWD performance car, that is reliable, with a manual, damn itís like trying to land a supermodel where she is going to pay half the bills and not be expensive.
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Old 08-01-2020, 01:41 PM   #370
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First world problems are a big headache.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:21 PM   #371
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You just mentioned something that many people miss. Like you, and the opposite of most people, when researching a potential vehicle, the first thing I do is check tire replacement. I mean even if I’m just mildly curious about X, I go to tire rack and check HP summer tires, and HP all seasons (our winter tires here down in the south). Then I immediately hit the forum of that potential vehicle and see if I can size down. This trend of 19’s, and 20’s, etc is not anything I like because it’s dumb. Most of these things, even the STi and my RS, ship with 19’s and 35 series tires, and some (iirc CTR) have 30 series tires. Out in my twisties, that’s a recipe for a bent rim as maintained pavement is probably 50%. Hell my local tracks I could say the same. Then there are the pads and rotors. So consumables is the first thing I check. Most that buy used “man I got a great deal on this pony thing” and I’m like yeah, but tires bro. I just got done driving a ‘17 and a ‘19 GT350 b2b, as I haven’t driven one in 3 years. Weight, size, and tire cost (and can’t really downsize rims) nixed that, well actually reliability was the biggest factor. But the tire costs are insane and they burn through them quick if you are going to drive it as intended. I actually know a guy who makes really good money. He drives an upper end performance car short shifting it, only getting on the throttle on highway on ramps, to spare fuel and tires. That kind of defeats the purpose of it to me. Like buying a Porsche and doing hyper miling. Just dumb to me.

Then there is the insurance. I’ve got a number of vehicles and actually have my bikes and PWC insured pretty cheap all things considering. Even with a bunch of expensive parts on my bikes insured, which is optional coverage. It’s the autos that are the killer. $236 a month for a cheap inexpensive DD and a compact truck. 40’s, perfect credit with 800 ish FICO, homeowner, no tix, no accidents, I mean there is nothing else I can do. Auto policy is tied to my homeowners and even with multi vehicle discount, $236 a month. With my other stuff that is around $367. That’s a f’in car payment on insurance. I want another performance car but insurance is the deal breaker. Those upper trim pony cars, I can insure via specialty, collectible, weekend/night driving with a lower annual mileage limit for $500-600 a year. The more affordable cars like a STi, well the STi is $2000 a year to insure and that’s added to my current policy. That would be 31% of my annual insurance cost which is a deal breaker. It really pisses me off to no end. I’m the only person insured on my policies and I can only ride/drive one at a time but on the autos it’s like I’m being charged like both are DD’s, both used at the same time and nothing I can do about it. As an enthusiast I’d be better served moving to another state.

So yeah consumables + insurance. It’s hard to be an enthusiast, first world problems and all. You have to balance purchase price, with reliability, consumables and insurance. Then if you are picky and want an AWD performance car, that is reliable, with a manual, damn it’s like trying to land a supermodel where she is going to pay half the bills and not be expensive.

I wish we could get the Yaris. If there's another segment I'm craving to have back other than lightweight RWD coupes, it's lightweight AWD, small displacement turbo hatches.

The thing that frustrates me is that the parts are there at Ford and Chevy to build a 2800-3200 lb 2 seater(or even 2+2) with a V6 or I4T and absolutely demolish the Japanese at their own game. But it's these average punters who just look at numbers that drive the decisions at Ford and Chevy. And these punters would LOVE these cars, but are so self absorbed in a displaced sense of masculinity that a V8 can stroke, that they continue to buy the V6 versions of muscle cars trying to fake it. This might drive a certain some one on this subforum crazy, but the way BMW scales its sporty cars is a good template for the Ford and Chevy, but it'll never happen.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:45 PM   #372
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I wish we could get the Yaris. If there's another segment I'm craving to have back other than lightweight RWD coupes, it's lightweight AWD, small displacement turbo hatches.

The thing that frustrates me is that the parts are there at Ford and Chevy to build a 2800-3200 lb 2 seater(or even 2+2) with a V6 or I4T and absolutely demolish the Japanese at their own game. But it's these average punters who just look at numbers that drive the decisions at Ford and Chevy. And these punters would LOVE these cars, but are so self absorbed in a displaced sense of masculinity that a V8 can stroke, that they continue to buy the V6 versions of muscle cars trying to fake it. This might drive a certain some one on this subforum crazy, but the way BMW scales its sporty cars is a good template for the Ford and Chevy, but it'll never happen.
Agree with you. Certain segments of the society donít even want to own a car. They want to write one check or automatic payment deducted for their rent that includes electricity, internet, water, name it. They like to spend their time following and being followed, and spending their entire days filming themselves with their phone or taking pictures of themselves. So them people are out. Now the bubbas and frail egos they buy the brozers and the Ponyís, so theyíll keep making those. The vanillas, your average married with children types, they are all buying CUVís like they are the greatest thing ever invented in the history of the automobile. There is a guy at the gym, heís like 7% body fat, works out 3 hours a day, etc, etc, he was all excited about getting his new car. I guessed multiple vehicles, but do you know what he bought? A Nissan Murano
I said damn this will get out of control and weíll be lucky to live through it.

The choice will exist for now, RWD and performance, but outside of the Ponyís, you have to spend quite a chunk of change. You may get lucky with the new BRZ if they slap a turbo in it. As conservative as both companies are, I wouldnít be surprised if they just put the 2.4L in it N/A. Weíll see. The problem, as you described, is few models to choose from. Take the STi as an example. Insurance on it is ridiculous because there are few models on the market attainable to the average salary. So the vape beards bought them, wrecked them, and drove insurance through the roof. Under 40k, what do you have? STi, 86, Miata, and I struggle to think of anything else. Sad state of affairs. 4000 lb Ponyís, or you have to spend tens of thousands of dollars more. Next gen STi will probably start at 40k. BRZ will definitely be up to 35k starting with a turbo.

The Yaris GR4 was the car Iíve been waiting my whole life for. The NA heads of state at these auto mfrís donít want stuff like that here. They want masses vehicles or if itís low production they want expensive models. Iíd like to see choice, a number of models. Who cares if they sell in low numbers, they sell donít they? Look at all the cornball stuff on lots (pre-pandemic) that they have to discount the F out of to move. Some of these mfrís, itís tiny CUV, small CUV, small to medium sized CUV, medium sized CUV, medium to large CUV, and large CUV. Then they have SUVís. Nobody wants to enjoy driving or rowing their own gears. They want to live in that phone man. Even this Supra if we get a manual, itíll be a 60k version of the car, or the crap inline 4 banger. Middle ground is just about gone. F, I may have to buy a BMW. Words I thought I would never utter.
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Old 08-01-2020, 11:27 PM   #373
DeeezNuuuts83
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The choice will exist for now, RWD and performance, but outside of the Ponyís, you have to spend quite a chunk of change. You may get lucky with the new BRZ if they slap a turbo in it. As conservative as both companies are, I wouldnít be surprised if they just put the 2.4L in it N/A. Weíll see. The problem, as you described, is few models to choose from. Take the STi as an example. Insurance on it is ridiculous because there are few models on the market attainable to the average salary. So the vape beards bought them, wrecked them, and drove insurance through the roof. Under 40k, what do you have? STi, 86, Miata, and I struggle to think of anything else. Sad state of affairs. 4000 lb Ponyís, or you have to spend tens of thousands of dollars more. Next gen STi will probably start at 40k. BRZ will definitely be up to 35k starting with a turbo.
Seeing how the Supra 2.0 starts at around $42k, that's not a bad guess for a turbocharged 86.

I've been daily-driving my Evo IX SE for 13+ years and was thinking about picking up the upcoming Audi A3 (not as a replacement but as the new DD), but if the next 86 is available with a turbo and priced right, maybe I'll go that route.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:05 AM   #374
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The Yaris GR4 was the car I’ve been waiting my whole life for. The NA heads of state at these auto mfr’s don’t want stuff like that here. They want masses vehicles or if it’s low production they want expensive models. I’d like to see choice, a number of models. Who cares if they sell in low numbers, they sell don’t they? <snip>
The accountants care, that’s who. Like you said they want the mass volume of vehicles or high GP low volume vehicles. I’ve seen this at my own company. I can’t tell you how many projects I’ve been on where management killed it because midway thru we realized we weren’t going to hit their targeted 80%GP on it .
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:37 AM   #375
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The accountants care, thatís who. Like you said they want the mass volume of vehicles or high GP low volume vehicles. Iíve seen this at my own company. I canít tell you how many projects Iíve been on where management killed it because midway thru we realized we werenít going to hit their targeted 80%GP on it .
I understand economics quite well. Toyota were the ones publicly stating they were sorry, they were going to make performance vehicles again, blah blah. Itís a halo car in a sense to bring attention to the brand. Had they not built it, Iíd 100% agree with you. But they R&Díd it, built it, etc. Itís going to other markets in low production numbers, so not bringing it here, sorry I donít buy it. Itís not like itís JDM only.
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