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Old 08-03-2002, 05:50 AM   #1
AKSubie
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Cool B4 Suspension has been installed!!!

Well, first off a little intro here. For those of you who don't (or didn't) know, I was the lucky guy to get to go in with Monovich on his suspension auction and be the "guniea pig". The set we (ok He) ended up winning was a used set from a B4 with roughly 15k km use on them. These included the springs, struts and tophats (topmounts whatever) for all 4 corners. Seeing as no one had tried it yet, it was a gamble, and after watching a couple, we decided that having the "hats" were a better choice. Anyway here are the results after an evening of playing with them

My first reaction after my "testing" OMFG!!! Talk about handling improvement. How about less body roll and pitching through the corners and a more direct feel to the pavement. How about taking a corner you used to "struggle" through at say 35, can now be taken at say 50 with ease and confidence. The overall ride and handling is great. The ride is firmer and more communicative to me than the stock ones were, yet the overall ride seems to be smoother, probably from the larger struts soaking up more of the bumps then the puny stock ones. Which, according to my service friend, the B4 Bilstein struts are about 40mm, or about as big as the DMS golds.

While everything seems hunky-dory, there are a few things that are not what I was expecting. One of them, which you can tell by the pictures, is the front is still about the same height as stock, which is probably better for me up here in the snow, although I was hoping for it to come out more "level" like the pictures of the newer B4's. Some have told me that is just a set of different front springs away. Another thing is every now and then, I'll here some creeking noises, like metal on metal, I'm almost positive this is the problems others have with the bare spring contacting the strut, as oppossed to being buffered by a small rubber peice.

So, all-in-all, a very good set-up, much better than stock (DUH!!) able to fit the USDM BE's, and now with the Struts, or at least the tophats, the world of "forbidden springs" is now my oyster

Feel free to ask me questions if you like. The only thing to keep in mind is, because of various reasons (mainly not enough tools or time, and too dammed impatient) I was not involved first hand with the install, although I do have access to those answers if need be (I think)

Ben Nelson
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Old 08-03-2002, 09:51 AM   #2
Heather
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That sounds fantastic! So no larger rear swaybar? Just the struts and mounts make it handle better around tight corners? It sounds like you are having a blast. Great! Have fun!
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Old 08-03-2002, 10:03 AM   #3
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Seems like being the lab rat on this mod turned out pretty good. Congrats!

/Mark
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Old 08-03-2002, 10:03 AM   #4
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Muhahahahahaha!!!!

I'm just about to order the STI shocks 4 way adjustable. I guess the key was the strut tops.

Thanks for being the Guinea Pig.

You've opened up a world of possibilities!

Muhahahahaha!!
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Old 08-03-2002, 10:17 AM   #5
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So everything fit in no problem on a sedan. What about for the Wagon?? We need a guinea pig to do a GT-B suspension swap into a Legacy. So, if someones buying, I'd be happy to be the piggy!!
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Old 08-03-2002, 03:39 PM   #6
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Thanks for the compliments guys. Yeah, I'm thinking this gamble payed off for us legacy guys big time. Now that we know all that is *really* needed to fit them is the JDM strut tops, we can now start fitting the JDM suspensions.

Heather - yes, as of now, I still do not have an upgraded swaybar, front or rear. The only other suspension mod I have done was adding the rear suspension links from the Rev. D. To me that *seemed* to accomplish a similar result to the handling as the swaybar would've. Although I'm still considering the swaybars regardless.


JoeT Sounds very cool. STi setup eh? Just the STi shocks or their springs as well? Let us knwo how they turn out for you. Yeah, I kind of wish mine were adjustable, dropping the front down about 1" would make it look so much better. (don't want to go too low with the snow you know)

tora - Yes, AFAIK everything fit with no problem. My friend at the service desk said he went out there a couple times to watch/check on the install. He said they had no problems with it not matching or lining up etc.. So with that in mind, I would ASSume that the wagon swap would have the same results.

I am anxiously awaiting the next Auto-x to see how much better it handles. Hopefully eat up a few secs (up here our courses are quite tight)

Ben
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Old 08-03-2002, 04:09 PM   #7
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I am happy for you and your gamble paid off big time!!!!
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Old 08-04-2002, 02:43 AM   #8
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Thumbs up

That stance looks familiar! Good job Ben!

One thing to note is that the STi top mounts are harder than std B4/GT-B ones and can therefore be noisier.

STi spings also lower the back fo the car MORE than the front - we have 2 cars with them - both dropped 25-30mm at the rear, and less than 20mm up front.

So, if you are after springs, the dark art of selection begins

The wagon stuff is different, so if you are going down this route, be sure to get sets specific to your body style.

Cheers
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Old 08-04-2002, 03:56 AM   #9
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Thanks for the input anotherb4, I'll probably wait utill next year before getting new springs. (save up some more money)

I'll probably ask again next year since I'll forget, but any recommendations on which springs tend to give the best looking stance with good handling & price characteristics? I've heard mention of Dcuatro's (sp?), any others to look for?
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Old 08-04-2002, 09:25 PM   #10
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Ok, I'm just going to put everything down here.

I wish I had remembered to post something on this before - this only affects American Legacy owners, but I think it should have been pointed out that the standard B4 suspension, while good for a stock unit, has some disadvantages. The major one is that the height was designed for the Baja 2000, or something similar. I think it's a major design failure of most Japanese manufacturers that they cannot make cars with equal (and short) fender gaps front to rear.

Most pictures of B4's you'll see on the net, including Subaru's advertising, has some sort of lowering springs in. Trust me, there's not much Subaru literature available that has a totally stock height B4 in it.

I've just recently gotten my B4 to that BMW look, the rakish look front to rear with equal fender gaps. To do that, I installed (well, not me personally, but I paid the bill) Ducuattro springs. They lowered the rear just 5mm, and the front 20mm. On the looks side, they are great - either the stock rims or aftermarket looks equally fantastic. Something that can't be said about a great amount of other lowering springs, most of them make the stock rims look pathetically small, which means you'll eventually drop far more money on some bling bling rims just to keep up in the looks department.

Ducuattro's are variable rate springs, vs. fixed rate springs such as STI's. I've had both, and there are marked differences. The Ducuattro's (hereafter known as DQ's) are actually softer than the stock D-revision B4's springs on initial impact. The ride becomes much smoother, and the suspension absorbs all lessor impacts in a very composed manner. Expansion strips on the expressways are eaten as quick and smooth as ice cream going into a 4 yr old (without the sloppiness). But once you start turning, the firm up faster and harder than a porn star before the money shot. They are, in fact, firmer than the STI fixed rate springs, for exit dips from my gas station that would routinely round off the edges of the front bumper are no longer a pain. The STI springs are actually not as low in the front - only 17mm drop, despite STI's literature stating 30mm - but the car moves much farther in the front on those mentioned dips.

The downside to the Ducuattro's, and possibly any variable rate vs. fixed, is that the initial bite of the suspension upon cornering can feel a bit weak. It'll wash out a bit more, and may not be as composed at the track as the STI's. It is more composed and far better than stock, though - in all ways.

I seem to have addressed the cornering issues by switching in my Prova solid stabilinks from the rear to the front, and putting my unused Whiteline stabilinks in the rear. This seems to be a pretty good setup. It must be mentioned that I have the Whiteline ARB's front and rear. The rear ARB is adjustable, and before the suspension change, I had it at the middle setting with the prova links in the rear, and just stock links in the front. This setup was fairly good, but it was biased towards understeer. Very stable all around, even at the track.

However, it did understeer. With the current setup, I've changed to the hardest setting in the rear. So far, it feels more neutral, and may even exhibit some oversteer, something I won't be able to tell till the next track session. It is very stable though, so I'm going to stick with this setting for now.

There is a trade-off with my setup, though. It's noisier now, though not nearly as noisy as an A through C revision, thanks to a revised front subframe. It also will clunk when going over bumpy roads at low speeds. This is mainly due to the Prova stabilizer links. I don't know if every aftermarket solid link setup will do this, but the Prova's really promote road noise and clunks in general. However, they also really tie down the front end, removing the brake dive and squat, and the lift from acceleration, along with keeping both tyres on the road during extreme cornering.

If you are mechanically enabled, you may want to take one route of swapping the stock links out for track only, and leaving them in for normal road driving. The stock links are quieter all around, and are smoother for driving at anything besides the 8 - 10/10's range.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Old 08-05-2002, 11:40 AM   #11
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Lightbulb The Question

Ok - Nice write-up (as always) but the obvious question is where does one get Ducuattro springs? Did a web search and came up zero.

KCB
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Old 08-05-2002, 12:22 PM   #12
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Hey Ben - Your car looks so good. What road is that? Looks like the big corner on De Armoun to me. I was born and raised in anchorage and will be back up there in a few weeks for my wedding - can't wait. Congrats on the new suspension - way to be a guinea pig!

Zak
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Old 08-05-2002, 12:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
I think it's a major design failure of most Japanese manufacturers that they cannot make cars with equal (and short) fender gaps front to rear.
I cannot disagree more with you. The reason the front is a tad higher than the front, is because under heavy braking while cornering this setup will work much better than the equal front/rear one. Since the front is heavier and during breaking it will simply collapse, with a lower car, you will have no shoch travel and will simply "ride" on bump stops which isn't exactly how performance suspension should work. Even if you look at any recommended coilover heights from their manufacturers, the front will always be a bit higher. Thats just the nature of Subaru's platform and it isn't no failirures.

Most "lowering" springs are designed for looks more than performance. Thats why they do exactly what you want them to do. Look good. But, if you take STi springs, they will do exactly what I said they would. Handle better WHILE looking better. And the coilovers do all of the above much better.

-Alex
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Old 08-05-2002, 12:57 PM   #14
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I second kbrate's statement, very nice write-up Paul, a lot of good information. I also did a search and came up empty for Ducuattro springs.

Also, Just to restate it for my better understanding, the DQ's provide a softer ride than the stock units, yet provide a better "bite" for cornering and more composed ride at the track, just not as good as fixed springs like the STi's, correct? Basically, the DQ's provide a decent balance of ride comfort and performance/looks, as oppossed to just straight performance gains.


WRXSTI?thanks for the compliment, and yep, that is the De Armoun corner. I was going to try Potters valley road, but there was a bike race on it Check the AKIC forum and let us know when your coming up, we might be able to get a mini-meet together.
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Old 08-05-2002, 03:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Imprezer


I cannot disagree more with you. The reason the front is a tad higher than the front, is because under heavy braking while cornering this setup will work much better than the equal front/rear one. Since the front is heavier and during breaking it will simply collapse, with a lower car, you will have no shoch travel and will simply "ride" on bump stops which isn't exactly how performance suspension should work. Even if you look at any recommended coilover heights from their manufacturers, the front will always be a bit higher. Thats just the nature of Subaru's platform and it isn't no failirures.

Most "lowering" springs are designed for looks more than performance. Thats why they do exactly what you want them to do. Look good. But, if you take STi springs, they will do exactly what I said they would. Handle better WHILE looking better. And the coilovers do all of the above much better.

-Alex
Roger all that, Alex. Now that I have a WRX, I see all the time the posts about "how to even out the fender gaps." There's a reason that they're there, and there's a reason that lowering springs do what they do. I know that some will quibble, but any lowering spring that is, for example, TRULY designed for the stock struts (on a WRX, in this instance) wouldn't lower the car more than 3/4". Prodrive has a spring that drops the car, while also evening out the fender gaps. People like that spring a lot, but I have yet to get a ride in a car that has them, so I can't comment on how well they work. People have been grousing about hitting the bump stops, and a rough-ish ride quality.

It's expensive to design a spring for a strut, which is why the more universal lowering springs generally don't work all that well, despite what their proponents assert. It's also why a well sorted-out coilover system will outperform struts with aftermarket lowering springs that haven't been optimised for the strut...the coilover strut and spring have been designed to work together.

A simple lowering spring can be designed for a strut, but is rarely optimised for it. The Prodrive springs are, which gives me hope that they work well for those seeking a better handling alternative to stock that retains much of the ride quality, and doesn't mess anything up. Usually a complete suspension setup, like the B4 stuff that sparked this thread, will rock. It's a complete, worked-out package that is designed for that particular car.

Subaru knows its stuff when it comes to suspensions. After fooling around with coilovers and whatnot on my WRX wagon, I now have full STi kit (struts, springs, top hats, lateral/trailing/swaybar links). The car kicks butt, handles great, and is comfortable. Sounds like the B4 stuff works really well, also.

Kevin

Last edited by gtguy; 08-05-2002 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 08-05-2002, 03:19 PM   #16
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I just got back from out of town and saw this thread.

hey congrats on the suspension! I'm glad it worked out so well for you. Kudos for being a willing volunteer. Finally people will know for sure if the B4 stuff works and all the speculation can be laid to rest.

Maybe now you BE/BH Legacy guys can start having more fun tinkering with your suspension now.

And also, thanks to the guys in Japan for giving us the info on springs, etc. There are a bazillion different types of springs available over there and I have no idea how one would chose a brand.

happy trails!

-Steve
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Old 08-05-2002, 05:29 PM   #17
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Ben,

Congrats on getting the suspension installed. Great thread.

P.S. Still trying to figure out for the other parts you asked about, hood, lights etc.

Erik
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Old 08-05-2002, 09:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Imprezer


I cannot disagree more with you. The reason the front is a tad higher than the front, is because under heavy braking while cornering this setup will work much better than the equal front/rear one. Since the front is heavier and during breaking it will simply collapse, with a lower car, you will have no shoch travel and will simply "ride" on bump stops which isn't exactly how performance suspension should work. Even if you look at any recommended coilover heights from their manufacturers, the front will always be a bit higher. Thats just the nature of Subaru's platform and it isn't no failirures.
It's not an engineering failure - it's a design failure. People are resorting to the lowering springs to even the gap out simply because it looks bad - I think we can agree on that point.

So, from a *design* viewpoint, if Subaru had created sheet metal front to rear so that the excessive gap was not there, everybody would be happy, no?

And on the ducuattro's (pics in a minute or two...). They only lower the front 20mm - 2cm, which is roughly 3/4". The rears are only lowered 5mm. And under heavy braking or acceleration, they are better than the standard B4 suspension, and the STI spring-upgraded B4 suspension. As variable rate springs, they harden up *very* fast, and simply don't bottom out with the astonishing regularity the STI springs did. While the initial bite of the STI springs was better, they are softer than the DQ's as far as the firmest rate goes. They are good enough all around, in fact, that I was able to get them directly from a Subaru dealer in Tokyo.
However, on the track behaviour has not been determined yet. While I am sure they are better than stock, I'm not sure that they will be better than STI springs. They are compromised by having a very good on-the-road composure vs. all-out track composure. Now that I have Prova links in the front, though, that may cancel out the initial fluff.

And one viewpoint towards the forward rake - quite a few of the serious tuners opt for it, with the idea that it will promote tail rotation in corners, since you are lightening it even more. I'll wait and see.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Old 08-05-2002, 09:15 PM   #19
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As promised:



Oh, and I've gone bling bling with GDB STI rims and rubber - we've found that that is nearly the only combination of rim and rubber that allows 225's on the Japanese spec Legacies.

Paul Hansen
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Old 08-05-2002, 09:29 PM   #20
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<stealth mode on> Gonna try and jump in without getting shot to bits <stands up slowly>

Lowering the front a touch more than the rear is a pretty std way of improving the turn in and in-corner front end bite when combined with a good alignment set-up. Paul has not mentioned that he also has an ALK, which is helping too.

Also, without wanting to start a brawl, "generic" lowering springs do exist, but these are not them - nor are any that we (that is shirokuma, legacyB4 or myself) are likely to try.

Paul tried these springs because he has/had the following targets:

- better "styling" (that's personal, so put the flame thower down please )
- better performance
- maintaining good comfort (he has a family to chauffer after all )

So, HE is happy with them - and he is tyring to share this with y'all.

http://www.daytona.kbs.co.jp/dcuatro/

Since navigating in Japanese is gonna be tough:
Product info: http://www.daytona.kbs.co.jp/dcuatro/200SUS/200SUS.HTM
On a BE5: http://www.daytona.kbs.co.jp/dcuatro/200SUS/BE5.HTM

A short desription: Dcuatro's owner, Daytona, is well known for its bike parts and moved into the car field when they noticed few companies were doing good, light weight springs. Their aim was to provide a better "look" and performance, while maintaining the core values of each car model.

Peace
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Old 08-05-2002, 09:46 PM   #21
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Oh, and if you were wondering just how specific some brands get about springs: http://www.daytona.kbs.co.jp/dcuatro/list/lisubaru.htm

To cut a long story short - they have 3 part #s for the different TT models (2 wagons and B4-RSK). Spring rates are different and the GT (non-Bilstein model) even gets different metal for the spring.

Nuff said.

Cheers
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Old 08-05-2002, 09:49 PM   #22
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Paul, you have the best looking B4!.. body paint! wheels, kit, suspension.......not to mention the engine!
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Old 08-05-2002, 10:43 PM   #23
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shirokuma

That is a beautiful car. I especially like the bling with the GDB STI wheels.
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Old 08-06-2002, 12:13 AM   #24
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Paul and anotherb4, thanks for all the info about the Ducuattro springs, I'm sure that'd help some of us US Legacy folk figure some things out.

Also, thanks for the links anotherb4, that is helpful, hopefully I can navigate through there and figure out how to get the springs over here.

Paul, your car looks dammed sweet. Especially with the bling, bling STi rims. the gold mixed with that beautiful B4 purple/blue, a very good combination. If only our US Legacy's could aspire to such good looks. (yes, many of us are trying)
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Old 08-06-2002, 12:44 AM   #25
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Those Legacys look really nice. I have a question about the STI GDB wheels though. Will they fit over the Subaru 4 pot calipers and will they fit on a USDM Legacy GT Wagon(MY00)?

I soo wish we could have the B4 here. Those two look really sweet.
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