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Old 01-06-2021, 01:13 PM   #51
JP Chestnut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Not everyone wants a tesla...

I'd fork over money to VW for an EV before I ever thought about forking money over to Ford.

I will never give money to Tesla.
I definitely don't want a Tesla, or a VW EV, or a Ford EV. So far, they're all half-assed toy cars for rich people to spend money on in order to make themselves feel better about the deleterious impact of their over consumption.

The Mach E seems sightly less half-assed than any Telsa though.
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Old 01-06-2021, 01:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
I definitely don't want a Tesla, or a VW EV, or a Ford EV. So far, they're all half-assed toy cars for rich people to spend money on in order to make themselves feel better about the deleterious impact of their over consumption.

The Mach E seems sightly less half-assed than any Telsa though.
I'd take a Ford over a VW over a Tesla if I had to choose between the three, but I don't want any current (or near future) offerings for various reasons.
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Old 01-06-2021, 02:25 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
So far, they're all half-assed toy cars for rich people to spend money on in order to make themselves feel better about the deleterious impact of their over consumption.

The Mach E seems sightly less half-assed than any Telsa though.
A long range Model 3 is cheaper to own over 75,000 miles than most Camrys. The Mach-E and VW ID.3/4 are even cheaper.
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Old 01-06-2021, 03:01 PM   #54
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Where do you come up with this stuff?

Ford names their first EV a Mustang. Real discreet.

The EV F-150 hasn't exactly been a secret, it's just taking some time. Besides, the hybrid F150 is their number 1 offender, I mean focus, at this time. Most manufacturers don't build hype about vaporware the way that Tesla does.
What vaporware? still reading TSLAQ?.... 40B down to my bank account

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Faster doesn't matter. Better does. If you want to be an early ev adopter, get a Tesla.
I have a Tesla

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
I definitely don't want a Tesla, or a VW EV, or a Ford EV. So far, they're all half-assed toy cars for rich people to spend money on in order to make themselves feel better about the deleterious impact of their over consumption.

The Mach E seems sightly less half-assed than any Telsa though.
How old are you? get of your get ass and get a better job and stop complaining. EV's are superior get over it. I support American made products and love quick cars.
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Old 01-06-2021, 03:36 PM   #55
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How old are you? get of your get ass and get a better job and stop complaining. EV's are superior get over it. I support American made products and love quick cars.
Funny response. Looks like I hit a nerve. In case you thought I was being factious about green over consumption, you should think again:
https://www.ecowatch.com/green-consu...641468089.html
https://et2c.com/the-rise-of-green-consumerism/
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ainable_Future
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5121119/

I'm a college professor FWIW. What's your job title?

Last edited by JP Chestnut; 01-06-2021 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 01-06-2021, 03:45 PM   #56
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How old are you? get of your get ass and get a better job and stop complaining. EV's are superior get over it. I support American made products and love Elon Musk.
FYP for accuracy.
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Old 01-06-2021, 03:45 PM   #57
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What vaporware?
Vaporware.... it's the stuff they are gonna do, someday. Maybe they will, maybe they already have, but letting people know about it, with so much fanfare, 2, 3, 4 years ahead of time isn't common in the industry.
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Old 01-06-2021, 03:53 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Faster doesn't matter. Better does. If you want to be an early ev adopter, get a Tesla.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
I definitely don't want a Tesla, or a VW EV, or a Ford EV. So far, they're all half-assed toy cars for rich people to spend money on in order to make themselves feel better about the deleterious impact of their over consumption.

The Mach E seems sightly less half-assed than any Telsa though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Funny response. Looks like I hit a nerve. In case you thought I was being factious about green over consumption, you should think again:
https://www.ecowatch.com/green-consu...641468089.html
https://et2c.com/the-rise-of-green-consumerism/
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ainable_Future
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5121119/

I'm a college professor FWIW. What's your job title?
1 percenter. My wife has PHD too so what.. .l

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FYP for accuracy.
that's accurate.

Last edited by juanmedina; 01-06-2021 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 01-06-2021, 04:23 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
A long range Model 3 is cheaper to own over 75,000 miles than most Camrys. The Mach-E and VW ID.3/4 are even cheaper.
I'm going to need to see the math on this one
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Old 01-06-2021, 04:31 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
I'm going to need to see the math on this one

https://loupventures.com/tesla-model...-than-a-camry/

the end of this video is hilarious

Last edited by juanmedina; 01-06-2021 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 01-06-2021, 05:44 PM   #61
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Okay, but do you have numbers from a reputable third party source? EG someone with no skin in the game.

That Tesla Purchase price of 38,900 is a model that doesn't exist, maybe it did in 2017, possibly in 2019.
SR RWD is 37,990 but the LR was what was mentioned in the comment I replied to, LR AWD = 46,990 for comparison.

Ten year cost of maintenance for a Camry is estimated at $5,200; the $4,000 at the 5 year mark is suspect, especially considering the first two years of it are "free" which are essentially oil changes, and that's essentially all of the maintenance you do in a Camry. Looking at a Camry maintenance schedule I'm baffled as to how it could cost that much even after ten years of ownership for maintenance.

Although insurance rates vary by individual and location, I am highly suspicious of the model 3 insurance being cheaper than a Camry like they show - They mention Tesla insurance (which still doesn't exist) so that number doesn't work either. I'm finding Tesla Model 3 insurance is around 50% higher than the national average.

I'm not certain their resale value for the Model 3 is accurate either, tech doesn't age well.

I also want to know where they got their fuel and electricity costs, as in my area when I did the study, it was no cheaper to run an electric compared to the equivalent ICE.

I don't trust the numbers loupventures has manufactured.
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Old 01-06-2021, 07:27 PM   #62
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I call BS on their breakdown for cost of repairs, insurance, and fuel/electricity.
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Old 01-06-2021, 09:39 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Okay, but do you have numbers from a reputable third party source? EG someone with no skin in the game.

That Tesla Purchase price of 38,900 is a model that doesn't exist, maybe it did in 2017, possibly in 2019.
SR RWD is 37,990 but the LR was what was mentioned in the comment I replied to, LR AWD = 46,990 for comparison.

Ten year cost of maintenance for a Camry is estimated at $5,200; the $4,000 at the 5 year mark is suspect, especially considering the first two years of it are "free" which are essentially oil changes, and that's essentially all of the maintenance you do in a Camry. Looking at a Camry maintenance schedule I'm baffled as to how it could cost that much even after ten years of ownership for maintenance.

Although insurance rates vary by individual and location, I am highly suspicious of the model 3 insurance being cheaper than a Camry like they show - They mention Tesla insurance (which still doesn't exist) so that number doesn't work either. I'm finding Tesla Model 3 insurance is around 50% higher than the national average.

I'm not certain their resale value for the Model 3 is accurate either, tech doesn't age well.

I also want to know where they got their fuel and electricity costs, as in my area when I did the study, it was no cheaper to run an electric compared to the equivalent ICE.

I don't trust the numbers loupventures has manufactured.
Edmunds numbers seem to be close to Loup's for 5 year cost of ownership of the Camry. My parents pay 20 bucks more or something for insurance than a 2006 Corolla they used to have. We pay $1,300 a year for two car (my Performance Model 3) but I had two speeding tickets about three years ago .

https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/camry...tyle=401771274

Resale value is actually really strong on the Model 3.

Quote:
Amazingly Carvana was willing to pay me 34.5K for my car that cost me about 38K after rebates and used it for 20 months/15K miles. This tells people are willing to pay almost the new car price if they can get their hands on it sooner. Truly amazing.

Last edited by juanmedina; 01-06-2021 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 01-07-2021, 04:46 AM   #64
Calamity Jesus
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I also want to know where they got their fuel and electricity costs, as in my area when I did the study, it was no cheaper to run an electric compared to the equivalent ICE.
CT has the 3rd highest electricity rates in the nation and relatively cheap gas, so I'm not too surprised.

An AWD Camry gets 29mpg combined. That's 2,586 gallons of 87AKI over 75,000mi. Which costs $2.66 in CT today. That's $6,878.76 (we're going to make the silly assumption that the price of fuel doesn't change). In WA that's $7,142.53 (@ $2.762/gal).

A Model 3 Long Range uses 26kWh/100mi, so 19,500kWh over 75,000mi. In CT, at 22.68/kWh that's $4,422.60. In WA at 9.41 it's $1,834.95.

The difference is much more stark when you step it up to a V6 Camry to make performance slightly more equivalent... but I did say most Camrys, not certain Camrys, so I'm probably technically wrong for most people.

The difference in cost between a Model 3 and an STI or mid-size SUV that gets 19mpg on a good day is much more comparable, and most folks wouldn't consider those "toys for rich people". It's well within reason for relatively frugal middle class car buyers and definitely a value proposition for performance car enthusiasts.
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Old 01-07-2021, 02:57 PM   #65
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Whether you agree or not, there's also another element to environmental impacts that figure into a lot of people's "calculations". Personally, any EV would be filled up with 95% hydroelectric power, so a bit more environmental benefits than someone with coal power... That environmental benefit is worth something to me. Not sure what it's worth... not enough to get me to buy a Tesla, but maybe enough to buy something like a VW ID or Bolt...
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Old 01-07-2021, 03:11 PM   #66
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My math is pretty straight forward.

By power is 10.5 cents a KWH (nuclear)
Gas is currently $2.14

I spend $38 a week on gas (in non-covid times). That's 40 miles a weekday, and ~40 miles for the entire weekend.

Now include that I have free charging at work.
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Old 01-07-2021, 03:25 PM   #67
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A long range Model 3 is cheaper to own over 75,000 miles than most Camrys. The Mach-E and VW ID.3/4 are even cheaper.
I suppose you have to weigh the pros and cons of saving a few bucks vs possibly perishing because your Tesla shipped without the suspension properly assembled;

https://www.thedrive.com/news/38579/...ng-and-serious
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Old 01-07-2021, 03:38 PM   #68
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I suppose you have to weigh the pros and cons of saving a few bucks vs possibly perishing because your Tesla shipped without the suspension properly assembled;

https://www.thedrive.com/news/38579/...ng-and-serious
two notible responses in that article:

Quote:
As a manufacturing engineer at a tier 1 automotive supplier I can tell you quite confidently that these are not service bulletins. These are quality alerts and corrective action work instructions.
Service bulletins are for repairs or corrections made after production, and typically after sale.
Every manufacturer was a quality program has instructions like these to address identified quality concerns. In the automotive industry he's practices are standardized.
Nothing I see here is out of the ordinary. these are what are known as interim corrective actions which are later followed with permanent corrective actions.
If you're going to write stories cuz sizing manufacturing processes you should at least know what you're talking about.
and

Quote:
Ford recalls for 2020.
  • Support bracket for drive axle halfshaft failure increasing risk of crash
  • Problem with instrument cluster preventing the enablement of Pre-Collision Assist feature
  • Powertrain control module software issue controlling fail-safe cooling which can increase risk of fire
  • Rear suspension toe link fracture increasing risk of crash
  • Missing or loose bolts on start/stop accumulator endcap resulting in possible loss of transmission function and increase risk of fire
  • Brake pedal fracture during sudden stopping affecting braking ability
  • Missing air bag inflator module

There are plenty more for just 2020 itself. Do searches for other manufacturers and you will probably find issues as well. Tesla has issued recalls as well and I think its par for the course with respect to the industry in general. Is The Drive publishing critical articles about other manufacturers as well? Possible (I didn't look). However, it's important when writing critical articles that the author provides a proper frame of reference with respect to the industry.
As someone that caused a national emergency recall (Broken brake pedal), and appreciate the finds presale, vs post sale.
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Old 01-07-2021, 03:43 PM   #69
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Loose suspension fasteners happen as I've seen loose fasteners on sway bars for example but missing completely? Come on man. If it was any other automaker with a long track record you may be able to blow it off but the only track record Tesla has is an extremely poor one.
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Old 01-07-2021, 04:00 PM   #70
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Loose suspension fasteners happen as I've seen loose fasteners on sway bars for example but missing completely? Come on man. If it was any other automaker with a long track record you may be able to blow it off but the only track record Tesla has is an extremely poor one.
Here is the full bulletin.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...84232-9999.pdf

The issue is loose fasteners. It appears that the nut might come off a later time. This is a pre-delivery inspection request either by the factory inspector or the technician.


This is not much different than the ones for the 2020 Ford Explorer where the Motor mount was loose or missing. This issue caused 4 documented incidents of the axle of the vehicle to become completely detached.

I am all for holding a manufacture responsible for safety and quality, but all need to be treated equally.
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Old 01-12-2021, 09:42 AM   #71
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Mach E wins SUV of the Year Award - North American Truck and Car of the Year

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ear/index.html
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Old 01-15-2021, 08:11 AM   #72
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Ford just sent out an email to most/all customers who are waiting on their cars. Delivery delayed until late February. No explanation. Lots of pissed off people over there. Ford might want to reconsider the whole preorder thing and Marketing hype launch if they can't get it right, between the Bronco and now the Mach e.........
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Old 01-17-2021, 10:03 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
I definitely don't want a Tesla, or a VW EV, or a Ford EV. So far, they're all half-assed toy cars for rich people to spend money on in order to make themselves feel better about the deleterious impact of their over consumption.

The Mach E seems sightly less half-assed than any Telsa though.
Used Nissan EV as a Daily commuter...
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Old 01-17-2021, 12:40 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by legacy_etu View Post
Ford just sent out an email to most/all customers who are waiting on their cars. Delivery delayed until late February. No explanation. Lots of pissed off people over there. Ford might want to reconsider the whole preorder thing and Marketing hype launch if they can't get it right, between the Bronco and now the Mach e.........
It sounds like there's a stop sale due to quality issues.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2...er-154582.html
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Old 01-18-2021, 11:45 AM   #75
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Sucks but at least they want the vehicles to be delivered to customers without these quality concerns. I'd rather wait then receive it and have to bring to dealer to correction.
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