Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo)

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-20-2003, 06:43 PM   #1
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Angry Timing Belt Problem - Need Help ASAP

In an effort to fix my oil pump seal leak, I pulled the timing belt cover et al today. While I was in there I figured I would change the timing belt to the STi model.

I followed the directions provided by Subaru to the letter (same instructions from the service manual and posted on scoobymods). Removed the cover and belt guides. I rotated the crankshaft until the appropriate lines lined up. Then I removed the lower tensioner. Next step was to remove the belt. I started at the bottom and after getting the lower section of belt out, both of the driver's side cram pulleys suddenly spun and ended up 180 degrees out. I don't know if it was the automatic tensioner that pulled the belt and made the pulley move or what.

Bottom line is that I think I'm screwed. The instructions were very clear about not moving the pulleys after the belt was off. The passenger side pulleys didn't move, nor did the crank. I tried very carefully to rotate the driver's cam pulleys back, but they see a lot of resistance with 45-90 degrees left to go.

1) Did I bend the valve stems?
2) If so, how do I fix it?
3) If not, how do I get the cams back in place?
4) Why/How the hell did this happen when I followed the Subaru directions to the letter!

I appreciate any help.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 07-20-2003, 07:13 PM   #2
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

The cams rotate on their own because the cam lobe is pushing the valves open.

As long as you don't try to rotate the cams anymore than the place where they're resting now and the place they were when you removed the belt, there's no way you'll open the same cylinders intake and exhaust valves simultaneously.

Unless you've tried to rotate the cams to any position other than they were in when you removed the timing belt, you've not caused any damage, and you won't.

They see alot of resistance with 45-90 degrees left to rotate because you're opening a set of valves. The trick is to get the cam lobes for that set of valves to the perfect spot to hold the camshaft in that position.

Can you stand an egg on end?
Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2003, 08:03 PM   #3
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Sounds like there might be a glimmer of hope for me...

How do I get the cams rotated back to where the timing marks line up so I can put the timing belt back on correctly?

Do I turn them both at the same time? Or rotate them in opposite directions?

From your explanation, it sounds like the valve stem slipped off the cam lobe and the camshaft rotated (both intake and exhaust did this by the way). So hopefully the valves did not get bent in the process. Now it is just a matter of getting them back without bending them. What's the best way to do this?
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2003, 08:06 PM   #4
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
...
Unless you've tried to rotate the cams to any position other than they were in when you removed the timing belt, you've not caused any damage, and you won't.
...
I did try to rotate them from where they ended up back to the point where the marks are aligned like before the belt came off. However, as soon as I felt resistance I stopped. I can rotate maybe 90-120 degress with ease, but after that it gets tight.

I sure hope I didn't screw anything up.
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2003, 08:32 PM   #5
AndyWRXWG
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23784
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Mundelein, IL
Vehicle:
2005 M3
Tiag

Default

ah welcome to the hell of trying to time up a DOHC. I did the timing belt on my prelude about 5 times before I got it right. This is advice based on that experiance, so I don't know how much of it will transate onto the WRX. First of alll if the cam gears have the top dead center mark on them then that is your goal. I found the only way I could turn the cams enough was to put a wrench on the bolt holding the gear onto the cam and moving it that way, don't worry you won't loosen it. Now how do you get it to stay... well good question on the honda there are guide holes on the head and cam that line up so you just put a punch in there to hold them. I don't know if ours has this or not, and even if they do good luck taking the valve covers off to see them. As for bending valves by turning cams I don't think you will have to worry about that unless you are rotating the crank at the same time, so don't be afraid to rotate the cams a little I just wouldn't be going more than 180 degrees and don't rotate both at the same time. Good luck, but your best bet now might be to have it towed to the nearest dealer before you really screw something up...
AndyWRXWG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2003, 10:07 PM   #6
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by AndyWRXWG
ah welcome to the hell of trying to time up a DOHC. I did the timing belt on my prelude about 5 times before I got it right. This is advice based on that experiance, so I don't know how much of it will transate onto the WRX. First of alll if the cam gears have the top dead center mark on them then that is your goal. I found the only way I could turn the cams enough was to put a wrench on the bolt holding the gear onto the cam and moving it that way, don't worry you won't loosen it. Now how do you get it to stay... well good question on the honda there are guide holes on the head and cam that line up so you just put a punch in there to hold them. I don't know if ours has this or not, and even if they do good luck taking the valve covers off to see them. As for bending valves by turning cams I don't think you will have to worry about that unless you are rotating the crank at the same time, so don't be afraid to rotate the cams a little I just wouldn't be going more than 180 degrees and don't rotate both at the same time. Good luck, but your best bet now might be to have it towed to the nearest dealer before you really screw something up...
Andy,

The cam marks are visible. In fact all of the marks were lined up before I started to pull the belt off. The driver's cams rotated on their own. Now I just have to figure out the best way to get them back without damaging anything...
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2003, 10:09 PM   #7
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Austin,

One of the things that precipitated this fiasco was a discussion you and I and a few others were having regarding the crank seal / oil pump seal leak on the WRX. IIRC, to get to the crank seal you said to remove the crank gear. How exactly does the crank gear come off? Does it need to be pried off or wiggled off? It seems to be pretty secure.
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2003, 11:28 PM   #8
Bolster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22290
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Vehicle:
2002 STI Ver 9
Spec C Wagon

Default

Crank gears sometime have a woodriff (spelling?) key, which you have to knock out. I'm not sure that ours do- I have yet to open an EJ20.
Bolster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2003, 11:59 PM   #9
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Bolster
Crank gears sometime have a woodriff (spelling?) key
Yes, EJ motors have a woodruff key securing both the crank timing gear and the crank damper pulley to the crankshaft.

A woodruff key is a half-moon shaped metal piece. The crankshaft has a circular indentation which the woodruff key slips into, and the flat side of the woodruff key protrudes from the crankshaft and secures the crank timing gear and crank damper pulley.

Look at the crank damper you've removed from the car. See the square notch cut from the inside of the damper? That notch slides over the woodruff key.

You remove the timing gear in the same manner that you removed the crank damper. It will slide over the key off the crankshaft. Don't try to knock out the key before taking off the timing gear - it won't come out. Once the timing gear is removed, the woodruff key will fall out on it's own.

You may need to pry the timing gear - be gentle. Apply a little force on one side, a little force on another side, etc etc, and wiggle it loose.
Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 12:03 AM   #10
neverendingmods
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23796
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Delaware/PA border
Vehicle:
2006 STi
white

Default

If it's got a woodruff key, be careful not to damage/loose it or the slot it slides in. I agree in saying take it to dealer. Pay $300+ and save k's.
neverendingmods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 12:06 AM   #11
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

No reason to take it to a dealer. You're obviously competent enough to handle the job. The second time it's much easier.

Oh, and a woodruff key is all of $0.75 from the dealer if you lose it... but you won't lose it.
Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 08:37 AM   #12
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Thanks guys. I figure if I'm competent enough to pull the intake manifold, install rails and injectors, and get it all back on without any problems, I should be able to handle this.

I just need to get the question answered about getting the cams back in place. Can I simply rotate them until the alignment marks are back where they are supposed to be? Clockwise or counter-clockwise? One at a time?
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 01:11 PM   #13
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Egan
I just need to get the question answered about getting the cams back in place. Can I simply rotate them until the alignment marks are back where they are supposed to be? Clockwise or counter-clockwise? One at a time?
Sorry, I thought I already answered that...

Yes, you can simply rotate the cam gears back to their proper positions.

Do you understand the reason they moved in the first place?

Just to make sure you saw what I posted above:
Quote:
The cams rotate on their own because the cam lobe is pushing the valves open.

As long as you don't try to rotate the cams anymore than the place where they're resting now and the place they were when you removed the belt, there's no way you'll open the same cylinders intake and exhaust valves simultaneously.

Unless you've tried to rotate the cams to any position other than they were in when you removed the timing belt, you've not caused any damage, and you won't.

They see alot of resistance with 45-90 degrees left to rotate because you're opening a set of valves. The trick is to get the cam lobes for that set of valves to the perfect spot to hold the camshaft in that position.
It can be explained further if you need more info - lemme know.
Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 01:37 PM   #14
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Austin


Do you understand the reason they moved in the first place?


It can be explained further if you need more info - lemme know.
I got it. The whole egg balancing thing explains it.

I just wanted to make sure I could rotate the cams back without damaging anything. I guess as long as the crank doesn't move, and I'm just putting the cams back where they were anyway, there shouldn't be a problem.
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 01:42 PM   #15
gotsol
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17346
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: All Over NC
Vehicle:
08 Cayman S
White

Default

for the future there are tools that will hold the cams in place
gotsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 01:43 PM   #16
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Egan
I guess as long as the crank doesn't move, and I'm just putting the cams back where they were anyway, there shouldn't be a problem.
Right.

If you were to rotate the cams more than back to their original position, you could open both sets of valves in a cylinder at the same time, and bend the valve stems from contact.
Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 02:01 PM   #17
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
Right.

If you were to rotate the cams more than back to their original position, you could open both sets of valves in a cylinder at the same time, and bend the valve stems from contact.
But which way is back to where they were: clockwise or counterclockwise? Or should I just take whatever direction gets them back in place with the least rotation? Or am I just confusing myself?
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 05:49 PM   #18
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

Rather than describe it, I'll just give you a pic.
Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 06:02 PM   #19
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 06:04 PM   #20
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Vehicle:
2016 STi

Default

Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2003, 06:21 PM   #21
Egan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12670
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Granite Bay, Kalifornia
Vehicle:
01 M Coupe,
05 Legacy GT, 05 Titan

Default

Grassy arse.
Egan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
04 Sti V-belt problems. Need help! Brettnrs423 Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 0 05-23-2008 02:04 PM
Screwed up timing belt alignment. Need help sfr4dr Normally Aspirated Powertrain 5 10-08-2004 03:47 PM
long time listener, first time caller. i need help asap metalnerd Southern California Impreza Club Forum -- SCIC 22 03-25-2004 01:34 PM
New problem, need help ASAP please.. legacyej22 Normally Aspirated Powertrain 1 10-24-2002 02:01 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.