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Old 03-22-2012, 07:53 PM   #51
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hmm didnt know about the turbo part, yeah the genesis 2t has very good potential in terms of mods a tuned versions would give a stage 2 sti a run for its money around the track, althought its a bit on the piggy side
But they're nearly impossible to tune, so...
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:33 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post

The MSRP on the civic is $15.8k... and they aren't selling because they're crap. I'm sure you can pick one up for $14k tomorrow if you really want one.
You can't buy a new Civic for $14k. They aren't selling, but they're still not really discounted. New ones range from $15,897 (4 door manual DX) to $23,701 (4 door Si w Nav.) http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ho...sedan-pricing/

You're taking it literally anyway; the comparison was that you can't buy much of anything other than a pile of crap for less than $20k now. Cars are expensive in general. <$30k for one of these things is a steal IMHO.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:44 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by woody06967

You can't buy a new Civic for $14k. They aren't selling, but they're still not really discounted. New ones range from $15,897 (4 door manual DX) to $23,701 (4 door Si w Nav.) http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ho...sedan-pricing/

You're taking it literally anyway; the comparison was that you can't buy much of anything other than a pile of crap for less than $20k now. Cars are expensive in general. <$30k for one of these things is a steal IMHO.
How do you explain the "pile of crap" (because it's under $20k) Impreza underpinnings on the FR-S, then? The FR-S isn't made of anything special.. it's a well tuned derivative of a sub $20k car.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:51 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
How do you explain the "pile of crap" (because it's under $20k) Impreza underpinnings on the FR-S, then? The FR-S isn't made of anything special.. it's a well tuned derivative of a sub $20k car.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:30 PM   #55
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Thanks for being a douchebag.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:36 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
How do you explain the "pile of crap" (because it's under $20k) Impreza underpinnings on the FR-S, then? The FR-S isn't made of anything special.. it's a well tuned derivative of a sub $20k car.
All of Subaru's cars share essentially the same underpinnings. It's disingenuous to say it's based on the Impreza.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:01 AM   #57
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All of Subaru's cars share essentially the same underpinnings. It's disingenuous to say it's based on the Impreza.
No, the Legacy split off from the Impreza in 2000 when it went to a Multi-link rear suspension. That gap went further when the Impreza went to a dual-A arm setup in '08.

The original mule was a chopped up GE Impreza.

It has the Impreza's rear suspension and the front suspension is basically just the Impreza's LCA setup turned 180deg.

It's not disingenuous at all to point out that it's based off of the Impreza in basic construction. I'm not saying it's a hacked up Impreza.. because there are obvious changes to the floorpan, wheelbase, etc.. but it's quiet obvious this car is a derivative of the Impreza platform.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:11 AM   #58
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My point is that every current Subaru model is a hacked up version of the same platform, all the way from the Impreza to the Tribeca. So it's not really worth trying to relate one model to another and call it a derivative.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:53 AM   #59
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I'm pretty sure I am going to trade my GTI in on this when it goes on sale and I'll tell you why.

1) I can only own one car, I live in an urban area.
2) I need to drive 250-400 miles a week for work
3) I Auto-X 20+ times a year and my brother co-drives.
4) I HATE ROADSTERS!!! REAL CARS HAVE ROOFS! (And I need at last a medium amount of trunk).
5) I value modern safety features! I love driving but I'm not willing to die for it!!

Can you think of a better car for me for under $25K?
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:20 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by BlaineWasHere View Post
I'm pretty sure I am going to trade my GTI in on this when it goes on sale and I'll tell you why.

1) I can only own one car, I live in an urban area.
2) I need to drive 250-400 miles a week for work
3) I Auto-X 20+ times a year and my brother co-drives.
4) I HATE ROADSTERS!!! REAL CARS HAVE ROOFS! (And I need at last a medium amount of trunk).
5) I value modern safety features! I love driving but I'm not willing to die for it!!

Can you think of a better car for me for under $25K?
A MCS. It's cheaper, it's got a nearly identical power to weight, it's more comfortable, it's quieter, it's lighter, it's a proven autox competitor, it gets much better fuel mileage, it's got more interior volume and it's got a hatch.

Is it a better handler? No.. not under certain conditions.
Will it be as raw an experience as the FR-S? No, definitely not.. but then how raw do you want it to be doing 400 miles a week?
Is it a more practical car? Absolutely. The FR-S/BRZ has a tiny trunk with a small opening and the rear seats are nearly useless. The MCS can actually seat 4 adults.


.. but that begs the question.. why get rid of the GTI for an MCS.. you obviously want something different.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:49 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Stanley View Post

The target demographic is "affordable and fun to drive" and that means vastly different things to different people. Some will tend towards the sports car side of the equation (Miata) and some will tend towards the straight line speed (Stang/Genesis).
Exactly!

I cross shopped my 2.5RS with a Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Xterra because my needs were 4 seats, with AWD/4x4 for getting to ski mountains.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:08 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
A MCS. It's cheaper, it's got a nearly identical power to weight, it's more comfortable, it's quieter, it's lighter, it's a proven autox competitor, it gets much better fuel mileage, it's got more interior volume and it's got a hatch.

Is it a better handler? No.. not under certain conditions.
Will it be as raw an experience as the FR-S? No, definitely not.. but then how raw do you want it to be doing 400 miles a week?
Is it a more practical car? Absolutely. The FR-S/BRZ has a tiny trunk with a small opening and the rear seats are nearly useless. The MCS can actually seat 4 adults.


.. but that begs the question.. why get rid of the GTI for an MCS.. you obviously want something different.
I want RWD! I'm sick of FWD at the track and AutoX, I'm ready to take it to the next level. Also when I was shopping for a car last time I picked the GTI over the MCS, so I'm not sure that's where I need to be now.

Plus I only get 25MPG (70% highway) and I bet the FR-S does better than that.

I'm 26, single, and have no kids. I don't need a back seat (the back seat in my GTI is folded flat 95% of the time).
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:29 PM   #63
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The MCS can actually seat 4 adults.
Heh, petite adults perhaps. I can't fit in an MCS, even in the driver seat. It's tiny.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:33 PM   #64
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Oh yeah, I'm only 5'8" 155lbs.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:35 PM   #65
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Oh yeah, I'm only 5'8" 155lbs.
That definitely makes a difference. When I sit in a MCS my head is about two inches from the top edge of the door opening. DOH
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:48 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Rootus
That definitely makes a difference. When I sit in a MCS my head is about two inches from the top edge of the door opening. DOH
You're not going to fit in a FR-S or BRZ, either. Motor trend reports that front headroom is 37.1".
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #67
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$24k is not too bad.
I suppose you can have it for $23k out the door if you haggle right.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:46 PM   #68
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$24k is not too bad.
I suppose you can have it for $23k out the door if you haggle right.
Not if you're buying brand new, because the entire Scion lineup is pure pricing.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:59 PM   #69
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I think you give the general public too much credit.
Yes, they can see that the cars all look different, but they will also lump them into a category based on size, power, and engine size.

Pop over to the BRZ thread or Edmunds (straightline blog) and look at how many people are comparing this car to the V6 Mustang and Camaro, and the only thing it has in common with them is they all happen to be RWD.
It's not even fair to compare this thing to the V6 stang pricewise. I paid just about 26.5k for my Base 2012 6 speed GT. You can get one for less than that now that the 2013's are coming out. I was in the market for the BRZ because I fell in love with it when I first saw it. I loved the interior, styling, weight, and rwd platform. But seriously...after seeing what I could get for less...I dunno. It just didn't seem very practical.

Last edited by Griever423; 03-24-2012 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:23 PM   #70
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I loved the interior, styling, weight, and rwd platform. But seriously...after seeing what I could get for less...I dunno. It just didn't seem very practical.
So... you loved the interior, styling, weight, and RWD platform. Then you found a car that has a worse interior, worse styling (though subjective), much higher weight, and changed your mind because it was cheaper.

I guess that makes sense. In backwards world.

If I had to guess, price and HP were your *actual* loves, and you found the perfect car.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:02 PM   #71
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There's nothing wrong with the interior in the 2012 Mustang GT.. I seriously doubt the BRZ's interior is any better from a materials standpoint.

As for the weight.. well, to some people extra weight isn't a detriment. There's no denying that the new Mustang is a potent package at a killer price.

The equipment offered in the FR-S & BRZ are just disappointing when all someone really wants is a good looking coupe.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:12 PM   #72
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There's nothing wrong with the interior in the 2012 Mustang GT.. I seriously doubt the BRZ's interior is any better from a materials standpoint.

As for the weight.. well, to some people extra weight isn't a detriment. There's no denying that the new Mustang is a potent package at a killer price.

The equipment offered in the FR-S & BRZ are just disappointing when all someone really wants is a good looking coupe.
... which was the point I was making. I mentioned styling was subjective and that if you were interested in the BRZ you would put "weight" and "handling" in the must-have categories, not "price" and "HP".

Saying that you really loved the BRZ because of the weight then saying you settled for something that weighs 500+ lbs more and costs more is disingenuous.

Edit: Then again, this is the Internet, and I shouldn't take it so seriously or literally. THREAD MAY CONTINUE.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:16 PM   #73
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Extra weight isn't a detriment?
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:09 PM   #74
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Honestly I don't think 2,800lbs wet is all the bad for car with a bunch of air-bags and modern safety equipment. This isn't a S2000 or a Miata without a roof and 4 less airbags. Plus that still makes it about 500 lbs lighter than a Mustang V6 right?\

Also NONE of us have driven it, and just about everyone who has, has had great things to say about it (other than maybe a few gripes about power). I know the new Gen Coupe and Mustang may seem like better values, but are they a better driving experience???

Time will tell.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:21 PM   #75
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$24k is not too bad.
I suppose you can have it for $23k out the door if you haggle right.
i dont thing there will be any haggling for a while after they hit the dealers. i think there may even be a markup unless subaru wont allow it. seriously though, the engine is gonna need some more power to be taken seriously.
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