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Old 12-02-2003, 04:14 PM   #1
IowaRS
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Default Why NOT to tap your wastegate control in after the throttle body.

Many moons ago, well maybe two moons, I installed my ludespeed stage 2 kit with a 4.5psi spring.

At first I tapped the boost line which controls the wastegate off the pressure pipe prior to the intercooler.

I was seeing about 3.5psi of boost in the intake manifold where my boost gauge was tapped into.

I found this odd since the spring was supposed to be 4.5psi

So, I moved the boost control (wastegate control) line to the same spot as the boost gauge (on the intake manifold).

I was then seeing the 4.5 psi I desired.

I chalked it up to loss in the intercooler.

All the while though PORTLY is telling me I need to tap the wastegate control line somewhere else because of surges and such.

I wasn't seeing any signs of surges so I wasn't concerned, until now.

PORTLY came up with a new theory, a very convincing one.

At partial throttle because the intake is at say 2psi of pressure the wastegate with the 4.5psi spring is still closed, all the while the turbo either builds boost until it runs out of exhaust energy, or it builds boost until it forces 4.5psi past the throttle.
He guessed that the pressure pipe was actually seeing around 10+ psi.

This logic seemed very solid so I had to investigate.
I hooked the boost gauge up to the pressure pipe and left the wastegate control on the intake manifold.
BINGO!!!!
13-15psi was in the pressure pipe in a situation where I know I had only 2 psi in the manifold. YIKES!!!!!
At WOT it all settles out and equalizes to 4.5psi.

As you can probably guess making the turbo run 13-15psi instead of 4.5psi is quite wastefull and potentially turbo life shortening.

So, unless you drive at WOT all the time I would HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend tapping the wastegate control line off of some point BEFORE the intake air goes through the throttle body!!!!!!!!
This will keep the pressure pipe at the correct PSI.

It just makes sense to do it this way.

I'll be tapping into the intercooler tonight to run the wastegate control off of that.

FYI: I had noticed that my partial throttle performance was a little strange, it felt like I had full throttle accelleration at 1/2 throttle. Something tells me this whole situation might be the cause.
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Old 12-02-2003, 04:25 PM   #2
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My wastegate is run off a nipple coming directly from the compressor housing outlet on the turbo.
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Old 12-02-2003, 06:08 PM   #3
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sorry for the noob question but what the heck is a pressure pipe?

thanks

Ben
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Old 12-02-2003, 07:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
sorry for the noob question but what the heck is a pressure pipe?
I think he means charge pipe (pipe from turbo outlet to the IC)
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Old 12-02-2003, 07:54 PM   #5
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thats some good info. i never knew that nor did i ever realize it. i have my wastegate off the turbo and the boost gauge off the intake. (not that my car is running anyways, hahaha)
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Old 12-02-2003, 09:30 PM   #6
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yea thats what i figured he meant but never heard it called that so wasnt sure.

if it is the charge pipe how did you just put your boost gauge on it, wouldnt you have had to drill and tap it for a vacuum nipple?

also, how will it fix anything if you tap it there? if it is 15psi in the charge pipe, and you only have 2 in your manifold, if you tap the charge pipe wouldnt you never get boost in the manifold then?

i am confused please explain, i would assume its a higher pressure right there because its right out of the compressor and its a smaller volume than your IC or manifold, maybe not that high but it should be higher shouldnt it?

P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2

i know we are dealing with stuff far from the ideal gas law but the temp drop isnt too significant in comparison to the volume change i dont think, like i would assume the IC volume is prob 5 times as big as the pressure pipe, or if your intercooler did nothing to cool the air it is at least 3 times as big to drop the pressure by 1/3.

thats my really simple chemistry knowledge. lol

Ben
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Old 12-02-2003, 10:47 PM   #7
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I believe he's describing a problem with having the line hooked up after the throttle body. It doesn't have anything to do with gas laws. When at say 20% throttle, the turbo is making say 15psi. The throttle body is only open a small amount, so only 2psi are getting through it, kinda like a check valve. When you open the throttle 100%, the pressure inside the throttle body and "charge pipe" equalize and the turbo output drops back to 4.5psi. The only downside is that your turbo is blowing 15psi when you're only using 2psi. If you connect the line to the turbo outlet, you get less boost (pressure drop from IC isn't accounted for) and a tiny bit more lag. If you connect the line to the manifold, you get more boost (no pressure drop) and less lag (the turbo's always making as much boost as it can, the throttle body just isn't letting by) but you are putting extra wear and tear on the turbo. I'm not sure it really makes that much of a difference on life, but I guess it depends on what turbo you're using and what its efficiency range is.
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Old 12-02-2003, 10:59 PM   #8
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No gas laws need to be used.

If you tap into the charge pipe with the wastegate control line the charge pipe pressure will then only be as high as the wastegate will let it go!!!
So, with a 4.5psi spring the charge pipe will be at 4.5psi, after the intercooler probably more like 3.5psi, and then after the throttle body depends on throttle position.
WOT will still give 4.5psi at the charge pipe, and then 3.5psi in the manifold.

Putting the wastegate control line in BEFORE the throttle body insures that even at partial throttle the turbo only has to produce 4.5psi (or whatever your spring is).

We're talking a difference of 10 psi here!!!
That's quite a bit.

I tapped into the intercooler right next to the throttle body.
I still get the same 4.5 psi boost in the intake manifold, but now my car isn't so darn digital to drive.
Before 1/2 throttle was the same as full throttle.
Now it drives like it did when NA, just with an extra 70-80AWHP


And yes, I already had a vacuum tap in my charge pipe that I hooked the boost gauge up to.
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Old 12-02-2003, 11:13 PM   #9
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Actually, you should leave your wastegate control in the manifold because it more accurate reflects what the engine is needed. Your BOV definately needs to be tapped before the throttle plate becaues that's where the transients matter. You will have a more responsive turbo that is quicker to spool if the wastegate control is in the manifold, because if it is in a place where it is reading those transients, it will open much sooner dumping all that potential turbo spooling exhaust into a place where it's not needed. Yes you will shorten the life of your turbo... only if it is surging, and you can hear the sound of a turbo surging quite clearly... hard to explain, but you will definately know it... it's very icky. The only other thing that could wear out the turbo quickly is if you aren't running a BOV, and the blades will get quite a nasty shock when that 15lb transient hits the compressor wheel. If you are running a proper BOV, and don't hear any surging, the ammount of life you'll take off your turbo is very very miniscule, and close to non existant if you always let the turbo cool properly before shutting off the car.
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Old 12-02-2003, 11:23 PM   #10
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ok i see now, sorry i just wasnt visualizing what was happening correctly, i get the throttle plate explaination now, that makes sense.

thanks

Hey IowaRS, how far away is Marion from Minneapolis? I am there currently and i just found out that we are going to be getting an AWD dyno in february i believe(at a reputable tuner that us subaru guys trust which is even better) so now if you are closer to minneapolis than chicago and want a dyno tune or a dyno session you should come on up, and let me know.

Ben
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Old 12-03-2003, 12:22 AM   #11
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What kind of tap did you use? Can you post some pics. I think this is exactly what i'm looking for. Thank you for this post.

-Kevin
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Old 12-03-2003, 02:13 AM   #12
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Does anyone know how this discussion applies, when using an electronic boost controller? I've just picked up an AVC-R as part of my upcomming install, and from the instructions, the setup is :
- Pressure tap from charge pipe, i.e. compressor out, through bleed-off solenoid to wastegate actuator.
- Pressure tap from manifold after throttle body, to electronic sender sending back to the EBC.

So the EBC is controlling what portion of the charge pipe boost is passed to the wastegate actuator, in order to achieve a desired result at the manifold. I'm happy with that. But what about when the throttle is only slightly open, and the manifold is under vacuum or low boost? The bleed solenoid works such that the EBC could feasibly not let any charge pressure through to the wastegate actuator, meaning the turbo would make as much pressure at the charge pipe as possible, a la IowaRS's example.

I guess that EBCs must use some algorithm for this, but it would be nice to know what it is.....

Thanks,
Mark.
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Old 12-03-2003, 07:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by no-coast-punk
Actually, you should leave your wastegate control in the manifold because it more accurate reflects what the engine is needed. Your BOV definately needs to be tapped before the throttle plate becaues that's where the transients matter. (SNIP) The only other thing that could wear out the turbo quickly is if you aren't running a BOV, and the blades will get quite a nasty shock when that 15lb transient hits the compressor wheel.
I think you're onto something here. I think IARS has a more serious BOV issue that he's masking by playing with the wastegate lines.

-WaC
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Old 12-03-2003, 10:15 AM   #14
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In reply to no-coast-punk and wac's posts:

WHAT?!?!?!?!?
Tap the BOV control in BEFORE the throttle body???
It will NEVER see vacuum before the throttle body, and vacuum in the BOV control line is what causes the BOV to open.
The transient that the BOV is trying to fight is closed throttle after WOT or large throttle openings. You get a bunch of air flowing at WOT and the turbo gets all spooled up and happy because the throttle plate is fully open.
When you slam the throttle shut (while shifting) all that flow comes to a very quick HALT. If the BOV doesn't blow there is a spike in the charge pipe/intercooler of pressure. This results in air trying to flow backwards into the turbo. The turbo no likey this.

No masking of issues going on here, this is cold hard facts.

My BOV works perfectly.
Fact is that if you tap the wastegate control into the manifold, at partial throttle the charge pipe/intercooler (anything pre throttle body) will be at a much higher pressure than what the wastegate is set at, period.

I'm just laying out the facts for the benefit of others, if you want to run the turbo at 15psi instead of 4.5psi go ahead.
Personally I don't want the turbo to push any more pressure than it absolutely has to.

The other fact is that driveability changed by 100%
I now have a nearly linear throttle instead of an ON/OFF switch for a gas pedal.

Last edited by IowaRS; 12-03-2003 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 12-03-2003, 10:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aus_RS
Does anyone know how this discussion applies, when using an electronic boost controller? I've just picked up an AVC-R as part of my upcomming install, and from the instructions, the setup is :
- Pressure tap from charge pipe, i.e. compressor out, through bleed-off solenoid to wastegate actuator.
- Pressure tap from manifold after throttle body, to electronic sender sending back to the EBC.

So the EBC is controlling what portion of the charge pipe boost is passed to the wastegate actuator, in order to achieve a desired result at the manifold. I'm happy with that. But what about when the throttle is only slightly open, and the manifold is under vacuum or low boost? The bleed solenoid works such that the EBC could feasibly not let any charge pressure through to the wastegate actuator, meaning the turbo would make as much pressure at the charge pipe as possible, a la IowaRS's example.

I guess that EBCs must use some algorithm for this, but it would be nice to know what it is.....

Thanks,
Mark.
I say this with absolutely no knowledge of how that EBC works.
I have a theory in my mind on how most work, but no experience so take it for what it's worth.

It seems odd that the EBC is using post-throttle body to track and control boost.
This is the same situation as mine, but in this case it's what the EBC is seeing vs. what the mechanical wastegate control is seeing.
I strongly suspect that you will have the same situation.

I highly doubt that the solenoid off the charge pipe is doing anything but supplying pressure to open the wastegate (when the EBC tells it to). It's not sensing the pressure.

IOW, at partial throttle the intake manifold has say 2psi, the EBC sees only that 2 psi. If the EBC is set to only allow 5psi of boost at 2psi it's still telling the wastegate to stay closed. The same 10-15psi will be in the charge pipe/intercooler as my situation though.

Last edited by IowaRS; 12-03-2003 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 12-03-2003, 12:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by FatCatTurbo
What kind of tap did you use? Can you post some pics. I think this is exactly what i'm looking for. Thank you for this post.

-Kevin
1/8NPT tap. National Pipe Thread.
This is a tapered tap, the tapering causes the fitting to seal as you tighten it.

I'll try to post pics.

You can pick up the tap and barbed fitting at any hardware store
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Old 12-03-2003, 01:23 PM   #17
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i am curious about this now.

what if you are running 10+ psi, is your charge pipe pressure 10psi higher than what is seen in the manifold when at partial throttle?

Q
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Old 12-03-2003, 01:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by IowaRS
In reply to no-coast-punk and wac's posts:

WHAT?!?!?!?!?
Tap the BOV control in BEFORE the throttle body???
It will NEVER see vacuum before the throttle body, and vacuum in the BOV control line is what causes the BOV to open.
The transient that the BOV is trying to fight is closed throttle after WOT or large throttle openings. You get a bunch of air flowing at WOT and the turbo gets all spooled up and happy because the throttle plate is fully open.
When you slam the throttle shut (while shifting) all that flow comes to a very quick HALT. If the BOV doesn't blow there is a spike in the charge pipe/intercooler of pressure. This results in air trying to flow backwards into the turbo. The turbo no likey this.

No masking of issues going on here, this is cold hard facts.

My BOV works perfectly.
Fact is that if you tap the wastegate control into the manifold, at
partial throttle the charge pipe/intercooler (anything pre throttle body) will be at a much higher pressure than what the wastegate is set at, period.

I'm just laying out the facts for the benefit of others, if you want to run the turbo at 15psi instead of 4.5psi go ahead.
Personally I don't want the turbo to push any more pressure than it absolutely has to.

The other fact is that driveability changed by 100%
I now have a nearly linear throttle instead of an ON/OFF switch for a gas pedal.
With the wastegate control tapped on the manifold, with the difference of air pressure before and after the throttle body, won't this cause the BOV to vent? Would this be the reason to why some guys here say it's normal that their bovs vent during partial throttle?
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Your BOV definately needs to be tapped before the throttle plate becaues that's where the transients matter.
sorry about that, it was late and I was tired as ****e. What I meant by tapped was the actual inlet into the BOV needs to be before the TB (duh). *points to IowaRS for spotting my dumbass tired mistake* The vacuum line definately needs to be in the manifold. My EBC, boost gauge, and BOV all share the same basic spot on the manifold for their taps.

Quote:
With the wastegate control tapped on the manifold, with the difference of air pressure before and after the throttle body, won't this cause the BOV to vent? Would this be the reason to why some guys here say it's normal that their bovs vent during partial throttle
No, the BOV needs a vacuum on one side to actuate, the BOV operates entirely independant of pretty much everything else on the car, so a reference between 2 taps is meaningless. But yeah.... keep your wastegate/boost gauge/BOV taps in the manifold because that's where your boost really matters because that is what your motor is seeing, as long as your charge pipe fittings are up to holding the extra boost it shouldn't be a problem. But yeah... it does sound like your BOV is flaking out if you have those kinds of transients being reported for much longer than the time it takes your BOV to vent. I still stand by what I said for why you SHOULD tap your wastegate reference in the manifold after the TB.
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:09 PM   #20
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Again, the point is that if the wastegate control is after the throttle body (in the manifold) the turbo can be boosting up to 15 psi in the charge pipe.

This may not be that big of a deal as far as turbo life in concerned.
I'm not going to take that chance.

Now, let's say you tap the wastegate control line in JUST before the throttle body. I'm talking right before it.
The ONLY loss that you will get vs. tapping into the intake manifold is that across/through the throttle body.
This is minimal, probably not even .1psi, but now your turbo isn't working overtime at partial throttle only to go to 4.5psi at full throttle.

I tapped in VERY close to the throttle body inlet.
I'll post a pic of my new setup as soon as I get home today.
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by QfactorRS
i am curious about this now.

what if you are running 10+ psi, is your charge pipe pressure 10psi higher than what is seen in the manifold when at partial throttle?

Q
I can only speak from my testing with a 4.5psi wastegate, but I would assume that if you have the wastegate control tapped into the intake manifold you would also see a higher pressure in the charge pipe.

The difference is that at partial throttle you might be getting 5-8 psi in the intake vs. my 2 or 3 psi.
This may or may not result in more than 15psi in the charge pipe.

Since the ability of the turbo to produce boost depends on how much exhaust it's getting on the hot side I would guess that with 5-8 psi in the intake the turbo would be able to produce more than the 15psi it was for me.

I just can't see any reason to tap the wastegate control in after the throttle body.
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:36 PM   #22
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Please post the pic.
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:39 PM   #23
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Tapping the wastegate control at any point before the throttle body will still cause the wastegate to begin to open pre-maturely. Really... as long as your BOV is working properly, and you let your turbo properly cool... reliability and service life will never be a problem.
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:48 PM   #24
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There's a very good reason to tap after the throttle body, as you said yourself in the very first post...to get more boost. If you don't wanna mess with a boost controller, this is the perfect way to raise boost a couple psi.

And to answer your question Q, it doesn't matter what pressure you're running. The turbo will push as much boost as it can (depending on turbo efficiency and current exhaust flow) until the right amount of pressure gets into the manifold and then back to the wastegate. So if you have the same turbo at the same RPM, a car with wastegate spring of 4.5psi and a car with 10psi spring will both have the same pressure in the charge pipe.
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:56 PM   #25
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Ah, this is not true.
I didn't lose enough boost to even read on my gauge.
That's a fact.

There isn't that much loss in the throttle body!!!!!!

Now, pre-intercooler vs. post intercooler is a totally different story.

I was getting 3 psi in the intake with the wastegate control pre-intercooler, post intercooler is the current 4psi.


As for the second point, the 4.5psi vs. 10psi car will be different once the intake manifold pressure goes above 4.5psi.
It's dependent upon RPM, throttle opening, intake manifold pressure, etc....so many factors.
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