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Old 01-08-2019, 01:32 AM   #26
VaporTrail308
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Originally Posted by fredzy View Post
Yes. It seems you do understand wagons. Not everyone can, or even wants to maintain a fleet of different vehicles to meet all of their needs. A fast wagon does a lot.

I donít understand how people see SUVís as better looking than wagons. I guess SUVís are supposed to look like SUVís, so theyíre ok? Bigger and more bloated is better? But a wagon is supposed to look like a sedan, so looking like a sleeker, more sporting version of an SUV is not cutting it?
I was trying to be subtle with my point. Apparently too subtle though.

If you are a ďricherĒ American, you CAN afford to maintain a fleet of vehicles.

Personally, I like driving vehicles that are great at each type of thing, not something that is just ok at a bunch of things. Iím not trying to brag, but Iím definitely in the ďricherĒ category. So, Iím trying to understand why other people in that category are buying these luxury wagons. To be clear, Iím not being critical of the choice, just trying to understand it.

Iím not a huge fan of SUVs either. If I want to haul things Iíd rather use a pickup. One of my DDs is a Raptor and if I actually need to tow I have 1-ton diesels for that.
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Old 01-08-2019, 02:37 AM   #27
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Generally, I'm a proponent of buying the tool for the purpose. As you said, if you want to haul things, get a truck, if you want to drive fast and handle well, get a sports car. But what I've learned is that there is always something else out there that does what you're doing, better. If you get a sports car, there's a faster sports car, if you want a truck, there's a more capable truck, etc. Also, sharing the world with others, or more specifically, sharing the road with others, doesn't allow you to fully exploit the "greatness" of any of the cars you might buy. You want to go wheeling and you want to lift your truck and have huge tires, but there are bumper height laws. You get a sports car, but the speed limits are all under 70 in most of the country, and all the fun roads have speed limits of 45.

In my case, I got a hot wagon and drive it 99% of the time because it really does everything I need it to. If I book a track day, I'll take my other car. But otherwise, it does everything I use a car for, without me feeling like I'm in the wrong car for the job. That also includes canyon runs where it holds the same speeds as my sports car does. My other cars CAN hold higher speeds, but on public roads, I don't go nuts and the wagon does it the same. In fact it's more exciting in the wagon, in a slow-car-fast kind of way. Oh, and you don't have to be 'rich' to have different cars for different purposes. I have 3 cars, and they're all pretty cheap. I got the wagon as a dog-mobile, just so I don't have to take my dogs in the other cars. And hot wagons are badass, so I didn't really need an excuse to get back into a wagon but there you go. Just my two cents from a wagon owner.
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Old 01-08-2019, 08:38 AM   #28
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Wagons don't draw the same attention from the police as sedans do, especially if modified with somewhat louder exhausts... "It's a wagon, can't be fast". They are the ultimate sleepers.

--kC
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:07 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by VaporTrail308 View Post
If you are a ďricherĒ American, you CAN afford to maintain a fleet of vehicles.
For sure, but it's really still the same point. Plenty of rich people have little interest in cars in general, they see them as an appliance. That usually means performance and handling are less important for those folks, but they also see SUV's for what they are - overkill/unnecessary. Which leaves them with wagons, which are teh smart.
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:39 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by VaporTrail308 View Post
I was trying to be subtle with my point. Apparently too subtle though.

If you are a ďricherĒ American, you CAN afford to maintain a fleet of vehicles.

Personally, I like driving vehicles that are great at each type of thing, not something that is just ok at a bunch of things. Iím not trying to brag, but Iím definitely in the ďricherĒ category. So, Iím trying to understand why other people in that category are buying these luxury wagons. To be clear, Iím not being critical of the choice, just trying to understand it.

Iím not a huge fan of SUVs either. If I want to haul things Iíd rather use a pickup. One of my DDs is a Raptor and if I actually need to tow I have 1-ton diesels for that.
Most "rich" people are not car enthusiast and if they were car enthusiast, all these rich idiots wouldn't own a Land Rover. Sure, they might have a BMW or expensive SUV for "status" but thats about it. There are also "rich" people who see how the world is developing and instead of pissing away money on cars, they are investing it so they are protected for the future and families future.

You also need to find out what the author defines as "richer." Does this mean making $100k? If so, $100k is jack **** dollars. Is this $250k but surveying people living in LA, San Fran, New York? if so, still piss ant money. Then you get into the issue of where people live and not having enough land / garage space to house all these cars. I'm not sure where you live, but go check for homes along the west coast and North East and see how expensive a house is for a 5 car garage.

Sporty wagons can check a lot of boxes for a lot of people / families.
People with kids who want cargo room for all their kids **** - Check
Dad who wants something "sporty" but "practical" - Check
Big enough but not too big so the wife will drive it - Check
Not a minivan - Check
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:59 AM   #31
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Must be a regional thing.
Around here, people with money get high end SUVs. Wagons are rare and I would guess for people that want the utility and not the commonness of an SUV.


Friend bought a 3 series wagon. It could only fit 2 adults and a front facing baby carrier.
I think my STI is bigger inside than that wagon.
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:40 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by vapore0n View Post
Must be a regional thing.
Around here, people with money get high end SUVs. Wagons are rare and I would guess for people that want the utility and not the commonness of an SUV.


Friend bought a 3 series wagon. It could only fit 2 adults and a front facing baby carrier.
I think my STI is bigger inside than that wagon.
The STI and 3 series are pretty much the same size in terms of length, width, rear leg room, and the wagon is no bigger than the sedan in those measurements. I don't have much of a problem with two adults, one front facing convertible seat, and a rear facing infant seat in my 3 series wagon. It is nice having the extra storage in the hatch. The thing that drives me nuts is the depreciation so even though I would like something like a V90, I won't get anything like this again until that amount of depreciation is nearly meaningless to me.
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Old 01-08-2019, 01:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
Cars I've looked at recently:


Used...
Jaguar XF Sportbrake <-- Big depreciation on these for some reason

--kC
I underlined the reason for you.
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Old 01-08-2019, 02:51 PM   #34
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The appeal of a sporty wagon to me is that it’s just as good as a sporty sedan just more practical.

There isn’t much difference in performance between an M3 and M4. That would mean there wouldn’t be much more difference in an M3 wagon. So you are getting 90% of an M4 with a great deal more practicality.

This only applies for users who have one car per person in the family. If you have afford 2-3 vehicles per person then sure a wagon makes no sense.

We have always had one wagon, Crossover or van in the family and one less practical car. I’ve typically had the less practical cars but now I’m stuck with the family hauler. A large wagon like the V90 or XF would be good enough on practicality and yet still provide some entertainment. The problem is I can’t afford them new and would be concerned about maintenance if used.
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Old 01-08-2019, 03:13 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Most "rich" people are not car enthusiast and if they were car enthusiast, all these rich idiots wouldn't own a Land Rover. Sure, they might have a BMW or expensive SUV for "status" but thats about it. There are also "rich" people who see how the world is developing and instead of pissing away money on cars, they are investing it so they are protected for the future and families future.

You also need to find out what the author defines as "richer." Does this mean making $100k? If so, $100k is jack **** dollars. Is this $250k but surveying people living in LA, San Fran, New York? if so, still piss ant money. Then you get into the issue of where people live and not having enough land / garage space to house all these cars. I'm not sure where you live, but go check for homes along the west coast and North East and see how expensive a house is for a 5 car garage.

Sporty wagons can check a lot of boxes for a lot of people / families.
People with kids who want cargo room for all their kids **** - Check
Dad who wants something "sporty" but "practical" - Check
Big enough but not too big so the wife will drive it - Check
Not a minivan - Check
It looks like VaporTrail lives in Cali; not sure where in Cali but if he's anywhere near one of the highly populated areas of Cali, we should assume he's well aware about how much money he needs to qualify as "richer"...
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Old 01-08-2019, 03:18 PM   #36
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The appeal of a sporty wagon to me is that itís just as good as a sporty sedan just more practical.

There isnít much difference in performance between an M3 and M4. That would mean there wouldnít be much more difference in an M3 wagon. So you are getting 90% of an M4 with a great deal more practicality.

This only applies for users who have one car per person in the family. If you have afford 2-3 vehicles per person then sure a wagon makes no sense.

We have always had one wagon, Crossover or van in the family and one less practical car. Iíve typically had the less practical cars but now Iím stuck with the family hauler. A large wagon like the V90 or XF would be good enough on practicality and yet still provide some entertainment. The problem is I canít afford them new and would be concerned about maintenance if used.
Unless i'm so loaded with cash that every time I sneeze or fart (which is often) that money comes out, CPO all day every day or score a ridiculous deal on a lease. I just don't see the value in buying new when I can get a off lease return with less than 30k miles and offering a 100k mile / 7 year warranty for 30-50% off msrp and only 2 maybe 3 years old.

The service part can rape you but i'll just go with reputable euro repair shops over dealer.
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Old 01-08-2019, 03:59 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Unless i'm so loaded with cash that every time I sneeze or fart (which is often) that money comes out, CPO all day every day or score a ridiculous deal on a lease. I just don't see the value in buying new when I can get a off lease return with less than 30k miles and offering a 100k mile / 7 year warranty for 30-50% off msrp and only 2 maybe 3 years old.

The service part can rape you but i'll just go with reputable euro repair shops over dealer.
some quick numbers from my 12 AMG wagon. Bought it slightly used from graham rahal

MSRP 110K
Paid 87K
Sold 68K 4 some odd years later.

I ran the numbers and it was way cheaper than leasing it. Damn i miss that car, but it was getting close to warranty being up. Hard Pass!

I think Doug Demuro paid something like 40K for his AMG wagon he has now.
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:25 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
some quick numbers from my 12 AMG wagon. Bought it slightly used from graham rahal

MSRP 110K
Paid 87K
Sold 68K 4 some odd years later.

I ran the numbers and it was way cheaper than leasing it. Damn i miss that car, but it was getting close to warranty being up. Hard Pass!

I think Doug Demuro paid something like 40K for his AMG wagon he has now.
Mercedes, especially the AMG line does much better than BMW or Jag in regards to holding value. I was comparing CPO Jag F Type R versus AMG equivalent, AMG is between $20-30k more. Nice thing (or bad) about Jag is you find a high volume dealer or find left over previous year models and you can find get them for $20k less than msrp, sometimes more. Iíve seen a few F Type Rís lease new for $750/$800íish a month. Not bad for a $100k car.

I do lust for the AMG though.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:16 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Unless i'm so loaded with cash that every time I sneeze or fart (which is often) that money comes out, CPO all day every day or score a ridiculous deal on a lease. I just don't see the value in buying new when I can get a off lease return with less than 30k miles and offering a 100k mile / 7 year warranty for 30-50% off msrp and only 2 maybe 3 years old.

The service part can rape you but i'll just go with reputable euro repair shops over dealer.
I bought two used BMWs, and you may think you're getting a great deal comparing to MSRP, but when you factor the new buyers get $5-6k off a $45k car, and the huge markup on CPOs, you end up saving nothing. Instead of depreciating from $40k to $15k, it depreciates from $30k to $5k, plus you pay more maintenance.

It's hard to avoid depreciation if you buy these cars, new or used.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:03 PM   #40
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I underlined the reason for you.
"Big depreciation on these for some reason". You're not good with sarcasm, are you?

--kC
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:17 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
I bought two used BMWs, and you may think you're getting a great deal comparing to MSRP, but when you factor the new buyers get $5-6k off a $45k car, and the huge markup on CPOs, you end up saving nothing. Instead of depreciating from $40k to $15k, it depreciates from $30k to $5k, plus you pay more maintenance.

It's hard to avoid depreciation if you buy these cars, new or used.
I'm seeing CPO all over the place with under 30k miles for BMW's across almost all models for 30% to upwards of high 3X% from msrp. There is no possible way you can tell me buying new even with $5k off is remotely a better deal. The depreciation you listed above is one hell of an extreme. Sure, it could go to $5k if you keep the car for an additional 10 years and drive the piss out of it.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:53 PM   #42
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I'm amused that the definition for sportscar precludes the 911, Ferrari FF/GTC Lusso, Evora, M2, and TT RS (despite how usable/unusable the rear seat is).
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:08 PM   #43
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...You also need to find out what the author defines as "richer." Does this mean making $100k? If so, $100k is jack **** dollars...
$100k is a boat load of money to the majority of people on this planet. I'd consider someone making $100k to be rich and I consider myself "middle" class.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:03 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
It looks like VaporTrail lives in Cali; not sure where in Cali but if he's anywhere near one of the highly populated areas of Cali, we should assume he's well aware about how much money he needs to qualify as "richer"...
Dude, you live in the bay area. You cant even afford a studio condo with $100k income. I also lived in Los Angeles and San Diego. $100k doesn't get you far and you should know that.

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$100k is a boat load of money to the majority of people on this planet. I'd consider someone making $100k to be rich and I consider myself "middle" class.

When homes are costing $1 million plus, $100k is not a lot of money my friend. $100k seems like a lot of money until you make it. What it allows you to do (depending on where in the country you live) is allow you to contribute more to 401k, maybe put 10% into savings and afford maybe a $40k car. Figure 30% is coming out in state and federal taxes so that leaves you with $70k. Lets say theoretically you rent / have a modest mortgage of $1700 a month brings you down to $50k not factoring in any utilities. Now lets say you have a $400 month car payment, you're down to $42k not factoring insurance. Oh, lets say you were doing maybe 5% into 401k, you'd be down to $37k.

$37k left over without anything in saving, food, health insurance taken out, any health related expenses, gas, any vehicle maintenance, cable / internet, entertainment, etc.

Oh yeah, and by the way, good looking find anything for $1700 month in rent or mortgage in California unless you live in the dumper areas in a dumper 1 bedroom apartment. $100k is decent money and can give you a cushion if you live well below your means.

I'm not saying $100k when factoring out expenses states is bad money but its not amazing either.

Also, comparing the rest of the planet to the United States is completely idiotic. Lets not try to strawman that.

Last edited by godfather2112; 01-09-2019 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:47 PM   #45
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Dude, you live in the bay area. You cant even afford a studio condo with $100k income. I also lived in Los Angeles and San Diego. $100k doesn't get you far and you should know that.[...]
Yeah, of course, I know that, I'm not arguing any of it.
I was just pointing out that VaporTrail probably lives in Cali as well (based on one of his posts in the classifieds forums); so I was basically saying that he most likely knows, just like we know, what it takes to qualify as "richer" over here.
It's gotten to a point at which homes in the $1M~$1.2M range are considered as "affordable" .
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:15 PM   #46
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Also, comparing the rest of the UNITED STATES to THE CALIFORNIA is completely idiotic. Lets not try to strawman that.

just sayin
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:02 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I'm seeing CPO all over the place with under 30k miles for BMW's across almost all models for 30% to upwards of high 3X% from msrp. There is no possible way you can tell me buying new even with $5k off is remotely a better deal. The depreciation you listed above is one hell of an extreme. Sure, it could go to $5k if you keep the car for an additional 10 years and drive the piss out of it.
I just don't think $35k for a 3 year old BMW is much cheaper than $45k for a new one. You do save on excise tax if you have it, which in my state can save you a couple grand (it's really high the first couple years).
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:04 AM   #48
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$100k is a boat load of money to the majority of people on this planet. I'd consider someone making $100k to be rich and I consider myself "middle" class.
Depends also on whether it's single, couple or family income.
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:43 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
I just don't think $35k for a 3 year old BMW is much cheaper than $45k for a new one. You do save on excise tax if you have it, which in my state can save you a couple grand (it's really high the first couple years).
I'm comparing a $35k CPO bmw with 20-25k miles to that when its new around $60k. Go take a look at what CPO'd 5 series go for when new, then find some that are cpo'd with 20-30k miles. Big price drop!
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:04 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by VaporTrail308 View Post
If you are a “richer” American, you CAN afford to maintain a fleet of vehicles.
Truly rich Americans don't flaunt their wealth too publicly. It's only kids and the new money driving around in flash cars. If they really care about cars the money will go into some Pebble Beach quality restoration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Wagons don't draw the same attention from the police as sedans do, especially if modified with somewhat louder exhausts... "It's a wagon, can't be fast". They are the ultimate sleepers.
I was told that by a retired Michigan State Police officer, and maybe it's true as I've been pulled over three times for speeding and ticketed once in fourteen years.

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