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Old 11-16-2005, 12:17 AM   #1
dodiox
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Default realtime map vs base map

sorry I did some search here and read the info on the cobb tuning website but I still don't get it.
can someone explain in plain ENGLISH what the difference is and what happens if you use one or the other?
thanks
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:18 AM   #2
02WHITEDUB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodiox
sorry I did some search here and read the info on the cobb tuning website but I still don't get it.
can someone explain in plain ENGLISH what the difference is and what happens if you use one or the other?
thanks
Base: Written on to your ECU and stays there if reset.

Realtime: Flashed 'overtop' of base map. Is lost if reset.

Seriously, that info is on the Cobb site. Read the AccessPORT Owner's guide.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:10 AM   #3
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thanks for replying. but i know that.
i just need to know why do you have those 2 options? what are the benefits of one over the other or which one should you use depending on what?!
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:32 AM   #4
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lol... dude

your basemap is what you want to have as your cars default config... that takes up 1 of the ~99 flashes. real time maps dont take up a flash so you can run any temporary map you'd like without wasting a flash... it can be turned off back to your base by resetting the ecu...

"learning" refers to your car's ecu (not your em) understanding the basemap everytime the ecu is reset. do the vishnu reset to speed that up... reset and flash real times all day... go nuts
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:05 AM   #5
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So it pretty much lets you choose how you want the car to run right then and there.

Lets say you're running a Stage 2 setup. You'll flash the ECU to Stage 2. All of a sudden you drive by a Cenex that sells 94 octane. Weee! Now you can upload the realtime map for 93 octane. Or somehow you aren't achieving the target boost pressure so you can upload the Higher wastegate duty map.

Then there are the fun ones like the valet mode, economy, or anti theft realtime programs. Those aren't worth wasting one of the 100 flashes you get from your ECU.
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:20 AM   #6
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It is very usefull to have both options. Case closed.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:23 PM   #7
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I don't have an AP but have done some research and thought I understood the realtime workings clearly. IE plugin, flash a real time map in, say fuel economy for a long trip, unplug. no ecu memory flash wasted. Get there, flash back to say stage 2. Again no wasted memory as base map is unchanged.

Okay then a guy I recently met who has an AP said in order for a realtime map to work, the AP must stay plugged in hence running the map right off the AP, IE realtime. To me that sounded crazy but I wasn't in a position to argue since I don't have one.

Please tell me he's wrong. He also flashed to stage 2 early in anticaption of getting the parts but not wanting to reflash later on, so he's probably not a good source. I've heard that's a no no.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frasdl
I don't have an AP but have done some research and thought I understood the realtime workings clearly. IE plugin, flash a real time map in, say fuel economy for a long trip, unplug. no ecu memory flash wasted. Get there, flash back to say stage 2. Again no wasted memory as base map is unchanged.

Okay then a guy I recently met who has an AP said in order for a realtime map to work, the AP must stay plugged in hence running the map right off the AP, IE realtime. To me that sounded crazy but I wasn't in a position to argue since I don't have one.

Please tell me he's wrong. He also flashed to stage 2 early in anticaption of getting the parts but not wanting to reflash later on, so he's probably not a good source. I've heard that's a no no.
He's an idiot. Dont listen to him.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:41 PM   #9
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As a IT professional, and with education in electronics, I find Cobb's explanation of what they are *actually* doing is severely lacking. But go ahead and flame those who ask about it.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:51 PM   #10
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For a technical explanation:

Cobb has rewritten the subaru ECU software to move certain engine tuning parameters like fuel and timing into an area of volatile memory within the ECU. Volatile memory will only keep the values it has in it if the battery is connected to the car. As soon as the ECU does not have power, the values in that area are lost. I'm guessing that there is also some logic written in to the software that if this area of the ecu is empty- i.e., no real-time map, that it reads the values it needs from another area of the ecu.

Cobb's base maps are really two things- one, the rewritten ecu software to support this type of operation; and two, the actual map itself, be it stage 1, stage 2, etc.

What are the differences between base maps and realtime maps?
There are certain values that can only be changed by a base map. The most notable is the open loop / closed loop switchover point for 2004 and up cars.

There is plenty more information on cobb's forums- check out the accessport forum on wrxforum.com.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:12 PM   #11
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I think mcower was saying whoever had an AP does not need to leave the AP plugged in for a realtime map to work.
There is no need to leave the AP plugged in. The realtime maps are loaded directly into the ECU and run entirely from there. To change the 'current running program' you need to either reset the ecu by removing power completely from the ECU(via disconnecting the battery and letting the system drain, or pulling plugs off the ECU itself) or change the realtime map via the AP.
Base maps are the base that realtime maps run on top of. You can think of it as always running on a realtime map. Only you don't HAVE to explicitly load one as it will default to the base map. Or you can load a realtime map and it will override the mapping of the base map.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:19 PM   #12
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Here you go. A thread that asked the same question. I hope this helps. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=868396
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frasdl
I don't have an AP but have done some research and thought I understood the realtime workings clearly. IE plugin, flash a real time map in, say fuel economy for a long trip, unplug. no ecu memory flash wasted. Get there, flash back to say stage 2. Again no wasted memory as base map is unchanged.

Okay then a guy I recently met who has an AP said in order for a realtime map to work, the AP must stay plugged in hence running the map right off the AP, IE realtime. To me that sounded crazy but I wasn't in a position to argue since I don't have one.

Please tell me he's wrong. He also flashed to stage 2 early in anticaption of getting the parts but not wanting to reflash later on, so he's probably not a good source. I've heard that's a no no.
Yes you already understood it with crystal clarity. Real time maps are simply maps that live in volatile memory as remowgn said.

Whoever that guy is who flashed to stage 2 without installing a downpipe first is risking the life of his motor. Please warn him!

BTW congrats on your 3rd place finish on Sunday! I see it's your best finish yet and you got significantly faster every run! Keep the improvement up man. I highly recommend riding along with DrBiggly or Crash477 for a few runs. Of course you're welcome to ride with either me or pleiades in my car too but it's a bit different than a WRX; especially the gear shifting.

-JWM
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Old 11-16-2005, 05:59 PM   #14
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Thanks for everyone's replies. It seemed he was way of base, but this seemed like an appropriate time to satisfy my curiosity with some certainty.


funsti,
Thanks for the comments. I think I will try to ride with them at a future event. Problem is that crash477 is always in the same run group. Guess I'll try to ride with Biggly.

Just out of curiosity what happens if you flash to stage 2 w/o a DP?
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frasdl
Just out of curiosity what happens if you flash to stage 2 w/o a DP?
The stage 2 map has significantly higher boost levels than stock. The map is tuned to certain exhaust flow rates and turbocharger response that is impossible with the stock exhaust system. I could hypothesize as to why this could lead to engine damage but I'd be talking out of my butt.

It's certainly less dangerous than hooking up an external boost controller and cranking up the boost without altering any ECU programming at all. However it's still a very irresponsible thing to do to one's car.

-JWM

Last edited by funsti; 11-16-2005 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 11-16-2005, 09:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funsti
he stage 2 map has significantly higher boost levels than stock.
yea... 2 whole psi...

still tho... dont run stg2 w/o at least a dp
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:37 PM   #17
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Ok 2 psi is not a big deal especially considering how conservative Subaru is from the factory. The STi stage 2 map runs 3 to 3.5 extra psi compared to stock. Sorry, I was ignant. But still as you say: bad idea.

-JWM
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Old 11-17-2005, 12:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 23b_Rex
lol... dude

your basemap is what you want to have as your cars default config... that takes up 1 of the ~99 flashes. real time maps dont take up a flash so you can run any temporary map you'd like without wasting a flash... it can be turned off back to your base by resetting the ecu...
If this is true, it is the best/simplest explanaition I've heard. Thanks.
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Old 11-17-2005, 05:35 PM   #19
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There is a major difference between base maps and real-time maps. First, base maps are permanently flash into the ecu. Base maps reside in the ecu's embedded flash memory. A reset of the ecu does not wipe it out. Real time maps are never flashed into the ecu's embedded flash memory. Also, as long as a hard reset (i.e. dead battery or unplugged battery) is not performed, then the loaded real time map exists. Real-time maps are great for those that are tuning or are constantly changing maps. They also do not overwrite the sector of memory where learning is stored. Base maps will overwrite that sector of memory and the learning process begins over. Why use a base map: anytime you go to a dealer, there is a chance of them performing an ecu reset, loading the appropriate base map will save you a lot of headaches when trying to drive home. By the way, the beauty of real time maps: changes can be done on the fly, meaning you could be driving your car while changing real-time maps.
Just my 2 cents
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk_wrx
There is a major difference between base maps and real-time maps. First, base maps are permanently flash into the ecu. Base maps reside in the ecu's embedded flash memory. A reset of the ecu does not wipe it out. Real time maps are never flashed into the ecu's embedded flash memory. Also, as long as a hard reset (i.e. dead battery or unplugged battery) is not performed, then the loaded real time map exists. Real-time maps are great for those that are tuning or are constantly changing maps. They also do not overwrite the sector of memory where learning is stored. Base maps will overwrite that sector of memory and the learning process begins over. Why use a base map: anytime you go to a dealer, there is a chance of them performing an ecu reset, loading the appropriate base map will save you a lot of headaches when trying to drive home. By the way, the beauty of real time maps: changes can be done on the fly, meaning you could be driving your car while changing real-time maps.
Just my 2 cents
So, when I get my AP which is better, leave the stock map as my base map, then use stage 1 all the time, and revert back to stock base when I go to the dealer? OR load stage 1 as base and hten change base to stock If I need dealer service?
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:38 PM   #21
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To get the most out of the AP you need to install the highest base map your car is good for... Stock it's stage 1... With a downpipe it's stage 2... Then when you go to dealer just put the stock rt map on.
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL1
So, when I get my AP which is better, leave the stock map as my base map, then use stage 1 all the time, and revert back to stock base when I go to the dealer? OR load stage 1 as base and hten change base to stock If I need dealer service?
Performance wise, the latter option is better. ALWAYS have the best performing map for your mods loaded in as the base map.

You've got tons of flashes to play with, so don't sweat it. I've reflashed my base map about 10 times over the past 2 years (dealer services, multiple base map dyno tunes, screw-ups on my part, yada, yada) and I still have at least 90 left. Do the math: the car won't be in your hands long enough to ever worry about runnning out.
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:52 PM   #23
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What a load of crap.

Let's dispell some myths.

1. The Subaru ecu can only be reflashed ~99 times. Total bull****. No eeprom exists in the planet with so few write cycles. The Motorola hc16 is capable of 100,000 write cycles easily.

2. That Cobb has somehow magically rewritten the ecu code so that they can load fuel and timing etc. into the volatile area. Total bull**** once again. Cobb has done nothing magical here. Base map's are written to ROM just like regular ROM's, its the real-time maps that are written to RAM. The same way that learned parameters are written to ram normally by the ecu and cleared when you reset the ecu. All you are doing is loading in a buncj of "learned values" that haven't really been learned.
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiider
That Cobb has somehow magically rewritten the ecu code so that they can load fuel and timing etc. into the volatile area. Total bull**** once again. Cobb has done nothing magical here. Base map's are written to ROM just like regular ROM's, its the real-time maps that are written to RAM. The same way that learned parameters are written to ram normally by the ecu and cleared when you reset the ecu. All you are doing is loading in a buncj of "learned values" that haven't really been learned.
Look I know Cobb has some haters out there. Do you have any evidence you can give? In effect you are saying that Cobb is lying to our faces about how their product works. EcuTek, if I'm not mistaken, also has a very similar feature where you can change maps by pressing the defrost button. I bet the EcuTek map switching feature is implemented in a very similar fashion to the Cobb realtime maps.

Here is a quote from a thread on the Cobb web forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning
ECU Learning
In a different section of the ECU is where it stores learned data. This includes things like knock events, closed loop corrections, and boost target corrections.

When you [SWITCH MAP] to pick a new REAL TIME map, the section of memory that stores this Learned data is not altered. It will continue to learn based on your driving habits. If you've changed values such as boost targets, then it will begin to learn towards those new targets.

-JWM
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:25 PM   #25
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Spiider and others claim to have hacked all the software and the Subie ECU so they think that anyone who uses A/P or ECUTek are idiots.
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