The NASIOC Oil Selection Guide

[Uncle Scotty]

the T6 has(at last check) a $5 mail in rebate on gallons which are priced at $19.xx at walmart at the moment

that is the deal of the century, folks

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[BlackJavaPearl04]

What are your opinions on Joe Gibbs BR30 for breakin on a EJ series motor. It was built with the king XPGs with extra oil clearnace on the rod bearings. 11mm pump installed with 1 additional shim. (Victim of spun rod bearing on the early 2 liters) I was thinking to run the Gibbs stuff for the frst 1000 miels then switching to a 5w 40 like rt6.

[rdieder]

Originally Posted by gpshumway

You are correct that it's a heavy duty oil conforming to API SM, but where did you get ACEA E9 and HT/HS of 5.6? The current PDS mentions neither. Are you sure you're not talking about RT5 10w30?. HTHS of 5.6 would be a neat trick for a 40 grade oil, that's higher than Red Line 10w50! I'd be surprised if it's higher than 4.1.

RT5 15w40 will indeed serve your cold start needs fine in SoCal, but RT6 5w40 is only ~$1.25/qt more expensive and drastically better for cold starts, which is why it's mentioned specifically in the guide and 15w40 RT5 is not. Most of North America is colder than SoCal

RT5 10w30 will also serve you well, but it's HT/HS is nowhere near 5.6, more like 3.6.

My mistake. I was looking at the general T5 brochure pdf. The print is small and looked like 15w40 but the table was for 10w30. If RT5 would serve me well, that's good news..it's very cheap at the nearby Tractor Supply.

[rdieder]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

the T6 has(at last check) a $5 mail in rebate on gallons which are priced at $19.xx at walmart at the moment

that is the deal of the century, folks

Thanks for the tip. I'll be getting a jug for the better of my two cars.

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted by BlackJavaPearl04

What are your opinions on Joe Gibbs BR30 for breakin on a EJ series motor. It was built with the king XPGs with extra oil clearnace on the rod bearings. 11mm pump installed with 1 additional shim. (Victim of spun rod bearing on the early 2 liters) I was thinking to run the Gibbs stuff for the frst 1000 miels then switching to a 5w 40 like rt6.

Break-in is a hotly debated topic.

Here's what I know:
1 - Manufacturers, including Subaru, do use special break-in oil. Sometimes this oil is mixed inside the engine from a combination of initial coatings of molybdenum wearing off, assembly lube, and a fill of standard non-break-in oil. The effect is the same, the first fill in a new engine has sky-high levels of additives to help break-in.

2 - Joe Gibbs Racing is a respected engine builder in top level motorsport and their oil fomulations are done by Lubrizol, one of the big names in the oil additive industry. If they're selling it, it's probably good stuff. It's not going to hurt anything. If that's what your engine builder recommends, go with it.

3 - Hydrodynamic bearings don't "wear in", so the viscosity of break-in oils should be no different than service fills, in fact, OEM break-in oils are often very thin, Subaru especially (my factory fill was under 8 cSt when I drained it at 1,300 mi). It's the additives which make them break-in oils.

[BlackJavaPearl04]

Thanks ill check with my builder.

[bdubblu]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

the T6 has(at last check) a $5 mail in rebate on gallons which are priced at $19.xx at walmart at the moment

that is the deal of the century, folks

I went to the world of Walmart today... when I saw the $5 rebate, I put 5 gallons in the cart. $3.75 per quart.... Whaaaaaaaaaa???

I also saw a grown woman in her pajamas. Soooo

[EDJR_WRX]

So would someone run into warranty denial or issues with SOA if they ran the mobil 1 esp That is not resource conserving? The 2014 owners manual says it must be api sn with the words resource conserving.

[bdubblu]

Has there ever been a documented instance of Subaru sending someone's oil out for analysis and subsequently denying someone's claim?

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by EDJR_WRX

So would someone run into warranty denial or issues with SOA if they ran the mobil 1 esp That is not resource conserving? The 2014 owners manual says it must be api sn with the words resource conserving.

The manual doesn't actually state that "Resource Conserving is required".

Originally Posted by bdubblu

Has there ever been a documented instance of Subaru sending someone's oil out for analysis and subsequently denying someone's claim?

I've never heard of it. They usually just ask for receipts. And if they did an analysis on M1 ESP, the only thing that would look "abnormal" is that the oil didn't shear to a 20 grade.

[migaleddi]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

The manual doesn't actually state that "Resource Conserving is required"

Half-correct.

If going by API requirements/classifications, then yes it must "have the words 'resource conserving'".

If going by ILSAC requirements/classifications, then you don't need the words resource conserving on it.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by migaleddi

Half-correct.

If going by API requirements/classifications, then yes it must "have the words 'resource conserving'".

If going by ILSAC requirements/classifications, then you don't need the words resource conserving on it.

There are no ILSAC requirements in the owner's manual. A picture of an API donut/Starburst is not a "requirement".

[migaleddi]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

There are no ILSAC requirements in the owner's manual. A picture of an API donut/Starburst is not a "requirement".

Uhhhh.....



Note the word "Or" in between the two oil grade requirements. Then note "ILSAC GF-4 or GF-5" to the right of the word "Or".

[gpshumway]

Find someplace in the manual where Subaru states explicitly what is required for warranty protection. Not required for "optimum engine performance and protection" but rather minimally required to maintain warranty coverage.

Unless I've grossly missed something, it's not there. You can't have mutually exclusive "requirements". In other words, if you say 5w-40 and 10w-40 are OK, you can't require ILSAC or API RC.

Any decent lawyer would laugh at Subaru's owner's manual as containing anything resembling contractual requirements.

[migaleddi]

While it may not explicitly say that "API SM Resource conserving or ILSAC GF-4 or GF-5 SAE 5w-30 classified oils in are required to maintain warranty coverage in the case of catastrophic engine failure", I think you're able to logically deduce that if you spin a bearing and show up with a handful of 10w-40 receipts, the dealership (depending on dealer; some don't care and some do) will try and claim the failure is due to using out of spec oil... However bogus that claim may be. It doesn't say 5w-40 and 10w-40 are ok to use, it says you can add it for replenishment but change to 5w-30 at the next change. Basically in a pinch you can use the other grades.

Technically, yes, in court SOA would need to substantiate their claim that the oil caused the failure. But in practical application, SOA is going to say "You did not use oil that is explicitly listed in our manual as required for optimum performance and protection. Because of this you did not maintain the vehicle in accordance with our requirements and so we are not responsible for the outcome of your popped motor."

The average owner (dumbass) isn't lawyering up and taking SOA or a dealership to court over a blown motor.

[bdubblu]

Originally Posted by gpshumway

Find someplace in the manual where Subaru states explicitly what is required for warranty protection. Not required for "optimum engine performance and protection" but rather minimally required to maintain warranty coverage.

Unless I've grossly missed something, it's not there. You can't have mutually exclusive "requirements". In other words, if you say 5w-40 and 10w-40 are OK, you can't require ILSAC or API RC.

Any decent lawyer would laugh at Subaru's owner's manual as containing anything resembling contractual requirements.

Further, the warranty documents is where you'd find terms and conditions related to warranty coverage. The warranty Ts and Cs would have to have explicit direction regarding (in this case) routine service. It would have to either spell out the oil specifics or at the very least, reference the pages from the owners manuals. If you all really want to sit here and beat this horse, then let's post up the warranty docs and scrutinize those. Otherwise the back and forth about what's in the users manual is a big fat waste of time.

[bluesubie]

As gp already mentioned, showing a picture of an API donut and a starburst isn't the same as requiring you to run it. Keep in mind that the only model years that do not mention 5W40 are 2011-2014.

[migaleddi]

.... No ****. But putting it in the manual that it's REQUIRED for optimum performance and protection is as close to requiring you to run it as there is, short of the official warranty terms and conditions. I'll go look in my paperwork after work today and see what I can't find and post it.

If you are unable (or seemingly unwilling) to see the connection between fluid specification requirements (or any maintenance requirements) in the car's owner's manual and warranty coverage, discussing it with you is a lost cause.

[bluesubie]

And please also post an example of "5W40 conventional" that the manual says that you can use for replenishment.

And what about dealers that offer non-Resource Conserving Motul X-clean 5W30 as their premium fill? Do you think that SoA isn't going to reimburse them for warranty work?

[migaleddi]

Just the heading and top of the page so you know where it's coming from...



Top of the reverse side... Notice 5 (neglect and abuse are a bit subjective) but look at number 8 especially... "Customary maintenance recommended by the manufacturer". "Refer to the..... Owners manual for manufacturer's recommendations and instructions."



And lastly, a reiteration of above, placing responsibility to maintain the vehicle as recommended in the owner's manual on the owner in order to be covered.



5w-40 conventional doesn't exist as far as I (and you) know. They give you three other replenishment options from which to choose. So the impossibility of finding 5w-40 conventional for replenishment does not negate the rest of the recommendations/requirements.

But that's not really material to my point. My point (as I've proven with the above) is that you must maintain your car in accordance with the maintenance recommendations made in the manual like API SM 5w-30 RC/ILSAC GF-4 or GF-5 grade motor oil or you risk claim denial. It's that simple.

[bluesubie]

See my edited comment above about Motul.

[migaleddi]

And see my comment above about how it depends on dealer. As far as I understand, if the dealer tells SOA "yup this car was maintained in accordance with our requirements, green light the new motor" SOA typically doesn't ask questions.

At that point, the issue would be with the dealer using TECHNICALLY out of spec oil (not RC). Can't blame the customer for what the dealer is dumping in.

You asked for warranty documentation showing that maintenance according to the manual is required and you have it. It gives SOA an out in denying your claim, except for in your example. But again in that case, SOA couldn't deny a claim based on the fact that the dealer is using the Motul.

[Royal Navy]

A huge thank you for this post. Excellent job. Over here in the UK, I only run Eneos ( Japan ) Sustina 5W 30.

Cheers

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by migaleddi

Just the heading and top of the page so you know where it's coming from...



Top of the reverse side... Notice 5 (neglect and abuse are a bit subjective) but look at number 8 especially... "Customary maintenance recommended by the manufacturer". "Refer to the..... Owners manual for manufacturer's recommendations and instructions."



And lastly, a reiteration of above, placing responsibility to maintain the vehicle as recommended in the owner's manual on the owner in order to be covered.



5w-40 conventional doesn't exist as far as I (and you) know. They give you three other replenishment options from which to choose. So the impossibility of finding 5w-40 conventional for replenishment does not negate the rest of the recommendations/requirements.

But that's not really material to my point. My point (as I've proven with the above) is that you must maintain your car in accordance with the maintenance recommendations made in the manual like API SM 5w-30 RC/ILSAC GF-4 or GF-5 grade motor oil or you risk claim denial. It's that simple.

Ok, so that's Added Security. Does everyone have added security? Why can't they just specifically say they recommend that you run Resource Conserving oil instead of just throwing pictures in there?

And what does it mean to look for the Donut OR the Starburst? I can run a Starburst oil that doesn't have the Donut? That doesn't exist.

And what does it mean to put the donut under oil grades? Those are not even oil grades. Oh and don't forget to include the page in the owner's manual that states that thicker viscosity is REQUIRED in hot temperatures. Of course, neither of those are defined. Speaking of definitions, please define synthetic oil. Is there an API or SAE definition?

I do see where you are coming from though. Just throwing out more points to ponder. I guess I can't get an old lawsuit from 1999 between SDC and SoA out of my head, so I'm picking nits. It's a classic example of a poor agreement between two companies. The judge in that suit picked nits as well.

[migaleddi]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Ok, so that's Added Security. Does everyone have added security? Why can't they just specifically say they recommend that you run Resource Conserving oil instead of just throwing pictures in there?

And what does it mean to look for the Donut OR the Starburst? I can run a Starburst oil that doesn't have the Donut? That doesn't exist.

And what does it mean to put the donut under oil grades? Those are not even oil grades. Oh and don't forget to include the page in the owner's manual that states that thicker viscosity is REQUIRED in hot temperatures. Of course, neither of those are defined. Speaking of definitions, please define synthetic oil. Is there an API or SAE definition?

I do see where you are coming from though. Just throwing out more points to ponder. I guess I can't get an old lawsuit from 1999 between SDC and SoA out of my head, so I'm picking nits. It's a classic example of a poor agreement between two companies. The judge in that suit picked nits as well.

I see what you're saying. There are some ambiguous parts of the manual (hotter temps requiring thicker oil) but you know as well as I do there's a definition of synthetic oil and it's easy enough to follow. But it does say specifically to run resource conserving oil. Can you not see it in my above post of my manual?

The added security btw is just an extension of the regular warranty. So yes, everyone has "added security", just not for 7 years/100k miles.

"The judge in that case picked nits as well" made me lawl.

"Pick nits" haha.

Now you have me curious and I'm about to go look up that case.