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Old 05-18-2016, 11:40 AM   #26
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It's an interesting angle (four doors). It is a big reason I went from a BRZ to a four door vehicle that my kids can get in and out of easier.

For me, two things stand out. If you load up a Miata or FT86 you are boderline, if not past, a Mustang GT in terms of price. So either give these cars more power to better compete, or cut the price.
The four door thing was more personal, I have a wrx wagon, I bought it as a compromise since I needed a family can and refuse to go fwd or automatic; and I won't spend German/luxury money on a vehicle that will ultimately get beat up by my kid(s), wife, and doors in the parking garage at work.

The Miata is at least a convertible, it has that going for it, but when i look at the price/performance metric, and compare real world driving enjoyment and ignore "what a pro driver can squeak out of it on a prepped track on a perfect day" and "how fast you can take corners on a track after getting up to speed" the miata/ft86 don't make sense, considering their price/performance. I agree; give it a similar power/weight ratio for similar price, or adjust the price to reflect it's power/weight ratio.
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Old 05-18-2016, 11:51 AM   #27
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It's an interesting angle (four doors). It is a big reason I went from a BRZ to a four door vehicle that my kids can get in and out of easier.

For me, two things stand out. If you load up a Miata or FT86 you are boderline, if not past, a Mustang GT in terms of price. So either give these cars more power to better compete, or cut the price.
This all day long. It was originally supposed to be $20K or sub $20K? I can understand how the project cost more money and increase the cost of the car; but, come on. What about the BRZ commands the same $$ as a WRX? Especially the current WRX that handles just as well. Recoup the development costs? I am sure it's been done or close. Man, I can't imagine how much they'd have wanted to charge for it if they went forward with building that whole new plant for it. Unless gen 2 knocks the socks off of folks, it needs to drop about $2500-$3000 IMO.
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Old 05-18-2016, 12:03 PM   #28
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Who cares what motor it has? It has FANGS!
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Old 05-18-2016, 12:04 PM   #29
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I call Bull ****.

IF you ever planned on exceeding expectations you should have done it with the first GEN FRS. If you did not knock our socks off right out of the gates, what makes me think you will do it now.
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Old 05-18-2016, 12:30 PM   #30
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With the death of Scion, Toyota could drop the tC and replace It with the FR-S to live in that cheaper price point. Perhaps that's the plan given the oddball ****ting spur concept thing they released.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:00 PM   #31
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This all day long. It was originally supposed to be $20K or sub $20K? I can understand how the project cost more money and increase the cost of the car; but, come on. What about the BRZ commands the same $$ as a WRX? Especially the current WRX that handles just as well. Recoup the development costs? I am sure it's been done or close. Man, I can't imagine how much they'd have wanted to charge for it if they went forward with building that whole new plant for it. Unless gen 2 knocks the socks off of folks, it needs to drop about $2500-$3000 IMO.
The original leaks were that the FT86 was going to be cheaper. If you look at the timing of the release of the car the Japanese Yen was at an almost all time high (this was just after the typhoon/nuclear disaster there in Japan where the FT86 is made). The car should be much cheaper to make now. So if they want to keep it underpowered then cut some cost. But at least offer a more expensive TRD/STI version of the car for those that want it. Expecting customers to go forced induction aftermarket and then denying their powertrain warranty is just no longer feasible for many car buyers who are dropping close to $30 on a fun car.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:08 PM   #32
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they could make it into a 2-door crossover. no one is expecting that.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:35 PM   #33
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yeeesh,

Don't say that, its scary because it is very likely to happen.
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Old 05-18-2016, 03:53 PM   #34
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It's an interesting angle (four doors). It is a big reason I went from a BRZ to a four door vehicle that my kids can get in and out of easier.

For me, two things stand out. If you load up a Miata or FT86 you are boderline, if not past, a Mustang GT in terms of price.
What the **** are you talking about? GT Premiums with Sport Package are selling around ~$33K-$38K in my area with an MSRP of $39K-$42K. There is not an 86 you can load up to that range, at all.

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Old 05-18-2016, 04:04 PM   #35
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What the **** are you talking about? GT Premiums with Sport Package are selling around ~$33K-$38K in my area with an MSRP of $39K-$42K. There is not an 86 you can load up to that range, at all.
I was looking at a base GT. I have seen them locally for $29K and change.

Your right, it would still be about $3K more expensive than a BRZ Limited, but clearly even a base GT would be on a whole different performance level than any stock FT86.
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:28 PM   #36
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the Mustang will be faster and has an awesome sounding motor. If it were the same size as a BRZ ... it would be glorious.
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:47 PM   #37
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I was looking at a base GT. I have seen them locally for $29K and change.

Your right, it would still be about $3K more expensive than a BRZ Limited, but clearly even a base GT would be on a whole different performance level than any stock FT86.
Here the GT with track pack or whatever it's called, performance pack maybe, is $32k all day. That's not leather or other options though. GT with pp, nothing else.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:50 PM   #38
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yeeesh,

Don't say that, its scary because it is very likely to happen.


Not quite, but close enough. I'd daily it.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:09 PM   #39
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Not quite, but close enough. I'd daily it.
With all 200 power hor$ies.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:30 AM   #40
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Here the GT with track pack or whatever it's called, performance pack maybe, is $32k all day. That's not leather or other options though. GT with pp, nothing else.
Base GT w/ perf. package run around $30-31K locally. Yeah, that's a lot of value and a BRZ Limited will get you goddamn close to that.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:30 PM   #41
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I call Bull ****.

IF you ever planned on exceeding expectations you should have done it with the first GEN FRS. If you did not knock our socks off right out of the gates, what makes me think you will do it now.
It could be one of those situations where Engine 1 was more ready than Engine 2, knowing that Engine 2 would actually blow away expectations, but you could still make sales on the excitement of the initial release with Engine 1. Also the FA20 got everyone warmed up for the FA20DIT.

I'm sure other companies do this too so as to keep the models fresh for a longer period of time. I'm thinking the STI also has this going for it since it's been on the same platform for 11 years. There's talk of the H6 going away in place of a bumped FA20DIT, which means something has to be in store for the STI soon.

It also means increased opportunity for an updated Legacy GT and Outback XT of sorts. We've seen the Sport version of the Legacy released for MY2014 and MY2017 (right?), which could be a prelude for the FA20DIT dropping into it. I'd prefer an FB25DIT and have it shared with the STI, but I've digressed enough.
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:02 AM   #42
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Subaru's contribution to the BRZ 2.0 will be EyeSight
I really think what the BRZ needs is a CVT. I should go work for Subaru!
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Old 05-20-2016, 03:46 PM   #43
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Maybe they move away from Subaru's engine and to Toyota's 2.0L Turbo that's in the Lexus NX and IS. Not sure how much more potential that motor has, but it's a thought. Toyota is also well overdue for a new bread and butter V6. The 2GR is around 10 years old.
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Old 05-20-2016, 05:52 PM   #44
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Maybe they move away from Subaru's engine and to Toyota's 2.0L Turbo that's in the Lexus NX and IS. Not sure how much more potential that motor has, but it's a thought. Toyota is also well overdue for a new bread and butter V6. The 2GR is around 10 years old.
The V6 would be awesome if they can still keep the weight down and it does not screw up the balance of the car too much. A smaller displacement turbo engine just makes so much sense in this car, but Tada was against forced induction with the original FT86 so who knows. Maybe he has seen the light of day. I could still see them staying with a boxer engine though from Subaru based on the original design goals of the FT86.
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Old 05-20-2016, 06:09 PM   #45
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I know they would like to stay with a higher revving NA motor, but I don't know how they are going to get more power without FI. The V6 packaging isn't very good and a decrease in fuel efficiency wouldn't be well received. Mazda went lower weight and less HP with the ND Miata, but I think that was a mistake and not well received. I don't see the weight of the car going down.

Making it bigger would be a monumental mistake. I also don't see the price of it going down. They are never going to sell a ton of these and I'm not sure they care a lot if they are going to continue with a second generation.
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Old 05-20-2016, 08:04 PM   #46
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....I'd prefer an FB25DIT and have it shared with the STI, but I've digressed enough.
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Old 10-20-2016, 08:16 AM   #47
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2017 Subaru BRZ Manual Tested Car And Driver





2017 Subaru BRZ Manual

Just turbocharge it already.

Oct 2016 By JOSH JACQUOT Photography By CHRIS DOANE AUTOMOTIVE

That Subaru’s 2017 BRZ should come with a turbocharged version of the company’s 2.0-liter flat-four FA engine, like the one that makes 268 horsepower in its WRX sedan, is a foregone conclusion. After four years of sameness, the too-buzzy, too-slow BRZ was beginning to look like the sports coupe the world had forgotten.

But the potential-laden coupe was due for a refresh, and Subaru had to do something. Imagine its predicament, then: Do they engineer a solution to the packaging problem that supposedly prevents fitting the turbocharged FA engine in the BRZ’s nose, or do they revise its naturally aspirated engine to make more power? Subaru representatives say that the primary concerns about the BRZ are a low center of gravity, balanced handling, and low cost, and those preclude fitting the turbocharged engine. We say the car’s desperate need for more power and giant-killer potential outweigh all of those priorities. And we’d wager that we’re not the only ones who’d pay more for a boosted BRZ with wider tires and a stiffer suspension.

VIEW PHOTOS


Plus, making the turbo engine fit can’t be quite as big an obstacle as Subaru claims. After all, the company has been packaging turbos in space-compromised engine bays for more than 20 years with huge success. And a turbo would cure two of the BRZ’s greatest vices: a lack of low-end torque and the need to spin its engine to 7000 rpm, where it’s thrashy and loud but still not especially powerful. So what did Subaru do?

It persisted, boost-free.

A Lot of Work for a 0.1-Second Gain

We give you the 2017 Subaru BRZ with a heavily revised but still naturally aspirated 2.0-liter flat-four. Equipped with new intake and exhaust manifolds, cylinder heads, cams, and valves, its power climbs from 200 to 205 horsepower while peak torque rises an equally insignificant 5 lb-ft, to 156 lb-ft. The gains appear so high in the rev range (peak output is at 7000 and 6400 rpm, respectively) as to be virtually imperceptible in daily driving. And the torque valley that haunts the BRZ’s midrange, between 3300 and 4600 rpm? It is slightly mitigated but still exists and is still burdensome. It’s a character killer in a car that’s otherwise full of promising personality.

VIEW PHOTOS


What’s more, these increases only apply to cars equipped with the six-speed manual transmission. The BRZ with six-speed automatic is rated, same as last year, at 200 horsepower and 151 lb-ft of torque. Manual-transmission BRZs also benefit from a shorter final-drive ratio (4.30:1 vs. 4.10:1) that gives the low-torque engine better leverage over the tires.

Predictably, a 5-hp gain and marginally shorter gearing do little to improve measured performance. Our 2017 test car hit 60 mph in 6.2 seconds and covered the quarter-mile in 14.8 seconds—improvements of 0.1 second across the board relative to the last manual BRZ we tested, a 2016 model. Trap speed remained the same at 95 mph. That slight boost in straight-line performance also comes with a penalty at the pump, with the manual BRZ now EPA rated at 21 mpg city and 28 mpg highway, down from last year’s 22/30 mpg. We weren’t able to record a real-world figure for this BRZ, but a similar 2017 Toyota 86 we tested at the same time returned a 23-mpg average.

Stiffening at the front strut mounts and rear damper mounts, coupled with retuned spring rates plus a larger rear anti-roll bar, yield only subtle improvements in road driving. Even at its limits, most drivers would find the changes every bit as hard to detect as that tenth of a second in the quarter-mile. Even so, the BRZ’s steering response, overall balance, and compact packaging encourage hard driving in ways that other coupes at this price simply do not. At 0.90 g on the skidpad, the BRZ doesn’t break any grip records. Blame the modest 215/45R-17 Michelin Primacy HP rubber, not the chassis, which boasts frustratingly underutilized potential.

VIEW PHOTOS


Our test car lacked the $1195 Performance package, which adds Brembo four-piston front and two-piston rear calipers in addition to larger rotors at both ends. The standard brakes stopped the car in 164 feet from 70 mph, nearly identical to the previous BRZ.

Meaningless Change

Bottom line? There’s no meaningful performance gain to be had for Subaru’s rather significant massaging of the BRZ. Fortunately, the changes come with an equally inconsequential $125 increase in base price. Our test car was a Limited trim model with no options. Picking the Limited, rather than the base Premium, upgrades the seats and interior trim and adds dual-zone *climate control and remote keyless entry with a proximity key. Even so, the price stays below the $30,000 mark. Yet, although it remains among the most entertaining cars at that price, its lack of underhood soul makes Chevy’s Camaro V-6 or Ford’s EcoBoosted Mustang, both of which are quicker, look awfully tempting for about the same money.

At this rate, the BRZ and its counterpart, the Toyota 86, are destined to suffer the same fate as the late Nissan 240SX—another coupe with a fantastic chassis that desperately needed an engine to match. The Nissan died at the hands of bean counters disgruntled about low sales volume. The benefits a turbocharged engine would bestow on the BRZ are too great to ignore,*** both for driving enthusiasts and for its longevity. Are you listening, Subaru?

View Photos
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...+and+Driver%29
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Old 10-20-2016, 11:22 AM   #48
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even if Suboyota would fit a 300 hp engine in it...the thrill is gone, it´s an old car, and no engine in the world could raise the sales numbers significantly.

Let it die.
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Old 10-20-2016, 12:35 PM   #49
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even if Suboyota would fit a 300 hp engine in it...the thrill is gone, it´s an old car, and no engine in the world could raise the sales numbers significantly.

Let it die.
It's a small non-pony car that has an almost useless backseat. The car was never going to sell anything close to a Camaro or Mustang.

I think there is a place for a lightweight, low to the ground, well balanced sports coupe for under $30K. I still miss the hell out of my BRZ, but I also don't deny that the car screamed for more power.

You will never please everyone. I think for the most part the designers nailed this car for what it was supposed to be. With a small twin scroll turbo this thing could be really special. The lack of torque was the killer for me, but they could easily fix this.
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Old 10-20-2016, 01:32 PM   #50
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"Subaru representatives say that the primary concerns about the BRZ are a low center of gravity, balanced handling, and low cost, and those preclude fitting the turbocharged engine."

'17 WRX starting MSRP: $26,695

'17 BRZ starting MSRP: $25,495

'17 Toyota 86 starting MSRP: $26,255

The justification for this project fits more with Toyota's lineup than it does Subaru's. And Subaru is forced to go along with it.
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