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Old 10-20-2016, 01:44 PM   #51
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"Subaru representatives say that the primary concerns about the BRZ are a low center of gravity, balanced handling, and low cost, and those preclude fitting the turbocharged engine."

'17 WRX starting MSRP: $26,695

'17 BRZ starting MSRP: $25,495

'17 Toyota 86 starting MSRP: $26,255

The justification for this project fits more with Toyota's lineup than it does Subaru's. And Subaru is forced to go along with it.
This FT86 project was always led by Tetsuya Tada from Toyota. From the start he insisted on an NA engine vs a FI engine that Subaru actually wanted. And not just for cost, he preferred an NA engine. While keeping the cost low might be valid, they could easily add a TRD/STI version that cost more with an FI engine and some beefed up internals and additional cooling. I think the cost thing is their excuse for not getting it right the first time. Also keep in mind that when the FT86 came out the Yen to dollar was at a high (the FT86 is made in Japan) and has since come down considerably. I am sure that impacted the cost of the car at release and budget.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by thill View Post
This FT86 project was always led by Tetsuya Tada from Toyota. From the start he insisted on an NA engine vs a FI engine that Subaru actually wanted. And not just for cost, he preferred an NA engine. While keeping the cost low might be valid, they could easily add a TRD/STI version that cost more with an FI engine and some beefed up internals and additional cooling. I think the cost thing is their excuse for not getting it right the first time. Also keep in mind that when the FT86 came out the Yen to dollar was at a high (the FT86 is made in Japan) and has since come down considerably. I am sure that impacted the cost of the car at release and budget.
Yeah, that's the line 2 years ago, and their answer with this car negates all past currency concessions or shortcomings. Performance package parts should have at the very least been standard fare with this sad carryover, IMO. IF the WRX didn't exist at such a low low low price, perhaps a better case could be made. As it stands, Subaru is attempting to fill one segment with two totally different cars. STILL baffling, and it's been 4 years.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:08 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
"Subaru representatives say that the primary concerns about the BRZ are a low center of gravity, balanced handling, and low cost, and those preclude fitting the turbocharged engine."

'17 WRX starting MSRP: $26,695

'17 BRZ starting MSRP: $25,495

'17 Toyota 86 starting MSRP: $26,255

The justification for this project fits more with Toyota's lineup than it does Subaru's. And Subaru is forced to go along with it.
I agree; BRZ/GT86/FR-S get a unique chassis and powertrain; that's why it's so costly.
Specifically, FA20 is an engine with unique cylinder heads with a complex fueling system that Subaru or Toyota do not use anywhere else in their respective line-up. Costly.
No other vehicle uses that chassis. Costly.
At least, using FA20DIT would eliminate the need to use that costly 205-hp "beast" of an engine.
I'm pretty sure Subaru engineers can ditch the TMIC for an FMIC and modify the exhaust manifold of WRX/FXT to relocate the turbo in order to maintain ground clearance.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:17 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I agree; BRZ/GT86/FR-S get a unique chassis and powertrain; that's why it's so costly.
Specifically, FA20 is an engine with unique cylinder heads with a complex fueling system that Subaru or Toyota do not use anywhere else in their respective line-up. Costly.
No other vehicle uses that chassis. Costly.
At least, using FA20DIT would eliminate the need to use that costly 205-hp "beast" of an engine.
I'm pretty sure Subaru engineers can ditch the TMIC for an FMIC and modify the exhaust manifold of WRX/FXT to relocate the turbo in order to maintain ground clearance.
impossible

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Old 10-20-2016, 02:20 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I agree; BRZ/GT86/FR-S get a unique chassis and powertrain; that's why it's so costly.
Specifically, FA20 is an engine with unique cylinder heads with a complex fueling system that Subaru or Toyota do not use anywhere else in their respective line-up. Costly.
No other vehicle uses that chassis. Costly.
At least, using FA20DIT would eliminate the need to use that costly 205-hp "beast" of an engine.
I'm pretty sure Subaru engineers can ditch the TMIC for an FMIC and modify the exhaust manifold of WRX/FXT to relocate the turbo in order to maintain ground clearance.
Exactly. For the next iteration they really can reuse the chassis and most of those components. Make a little extra room if needed for an FA20DIT in the new platform and call it a day.

Keep the seats (they are some of the best of any car I have owned). Keep the 6mt gear box (again, very good tranny). Many other parts are just off the shelf from the Subaru parts bin (from the WRX).

So much about the current FT86 is so good. They don't need to change much. Follow Mazda with the Miata in terms of making the FT86 gen II lighter than gen 1
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:25 PM   #56
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Just to be clear I am talking about next gen FT86. Not current gen. At this point they might as well hold off and get people excited and hype up the new car.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:30 PM   #57
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No other vehicle uses that chassis. Costly.
Sure, but there is a lot of parts binning going on. Transmission, rear end, some suspension, etc.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:32 PM   #58
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Just to be clear I am talking about next gen FT86. Not current gen. At this point they might as well hold off and get people excited and hype up the new car.

I agree. When they killed Scion, they should have ended production on the twins, and started fresh with the next gen as a Toyota. Which I think is what Josh in the article was getting at.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:43 PM   #59
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I agree. When they killed Scion, they should have ended production on the twins, and started fresh with the next gen as a Toyota. Which I think is what Josh in the article was getting at.
I guess I disagree. The combined Subaru/Toyota FT86 in the US is still selling almost 1K cars a month and they are selling more than the revamped Miata the last few months and should outsell it for the year.

Sure its a niche car but sales seem to be inline with what they expected. Again, not everyone wants a Mustang, Camaro, or WRX.

While I think we all agree a base WRX is a ton of car for the money, you can't just look at the specs, the WRX feels like driving in a boat after getting out of the FT86. It's just a very different driving dynamic.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:49 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by thill View Post
At this point they might as well hold off and get people excited and hype up the new car.
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I guess I disagree. The combined Subaru/Toyota FT86 in the US is still selling almost 1K cars a month and they are selling more than the revamped Miata the last few months and should outsell it for the year.
There's nothing in the rules about disagreeing with yourself.
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Old 10-20-2016, 03:05 PM   #61
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There's nothing in the rules about disagreeing with yourself.
I meant hold off putting in a FA20DIT or another forced induction system in the existing platform.

Not stop selling the car.
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Old 10-20-2016, 04:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I agree; BRZ/GT86/FR-S get a unique chassis and powertrain; that's why it's so costly.
The engine is nothing special. It's a naturally aspirated FA that revs to a perfectly staid 7450rpm. BMW was selling pedestrian 320is with a 2.0L M10 engine that revved to 7200rpm back in the late 70s. Honda has been selling a 2.0L Civic Si with a 8300 rpm engine for years before the BRZ came out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Specifically, FA20 is an engine with unique cylinder heads with a complex fueling system that Subaru or Toyota do not use anywhere else in their respective line-up. Costly.
That fuel system also solves nothing over Subaru's own DI setup on the WRX.. and the WRX is still priced more competitively.

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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
No other vehicle uses that chassis. Costly.
It's a modified Impreza platform, built on an old Impreza production line. The rear suspension is straight out of an Impreza while the front suspension is flipped over so that the front control arms are mounted further forward. The front hubs are even straight out of an Impreza with plugs that fill up the middle where the CV axles would otherwise pass through.

Nobody expects the Forester to be costly because it's a modified Impreza.. but the moment you make you sports car out of an Impreza platform it's Ferrari-level unobtanium.


The only reason the twins are priced so high is that Toyota wanted to make a hefty profit off of it.
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Old 10-20-2016, 04:34 PM   #63
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This FT86 project was always led by Tetsuya Tada from Toyota. From the start he insisted on an NA engine vs a FI engine that Subaru actually wanted. And not just for cost, he preferred an NA engine. While keeping the cost low might be valid, they could easily add a TRD/STI version that cost more with an FI engine and some beefed up internals and additional cooling. I think the cost thing is their excuse for not getting it right the first time. Also keep in mind that when the FT86 came out the Yen to dollar was at a high (the FT86 is made in Japan) and has since come down considerably. I am sure that impacted the cost of the car at release and budget.
Not the story I got. What I heard was the "formula" of the car. They wanted this......"200hp" with this......."CoG/driving dynamics" with this........"MPG". AWD didn't work. First thing out. Beefing up a N/A boxer didn't work(heard reliability). FI didn't work when MPG was considered. Enter Tada-san going and asking for D4-S. Bam. Everything worked out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Yeah, that's the line 2 years ago, and their answer with this car negates all past currency concessions or shortcomings. Performance package parts should have at the very least been standard fare with this sad carryover, IMO. IF the WRX didn't exist at such a low low low price, perhaps a better case could be made. As it stands, Subaru is attempting to fill one segment with two totally different cars. STILL baffling, and it's been 4 years.
No. They are not. That is YOU(the ones asking for more power) trying to shop the 2. You WANT the BRZ, but really want WRX 2 door. The BRZ is not that.

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The engine is nothing special. It's a naturally aspirated FA that revs to a perfectly staid 7450rpm. BMW was selling pedestrian 320is with a 2.0L M10 engine that revved to 7200rpm back in the late 70s. Honda has been selling a 2.0L Civic Si with a 8300 rpm engine for years before the BRZ came out.

That fuel system also solves nothing over Subaru's own DI setup on the WRX.. and the WRX is still priced more competitively.

It's a modified Impreza platform, built on an old Impreza production line. The rear suspension is straight out of an Impreza while the front suspension is flipped over so that the front control arms are mounted further forward. The front hubs are even straight out of an Impreza with plugs that fill up the middle where the CV axles would otherwise pass through.

Nobody expects the Forester to be costly because it's a modified Impreza.. but the moment you make you sports car out of an Impreza platform it's Ferrari-level unobtanium.


The only reason the twins are priced so high is that Toyota wanted to make a hefty profit off of it.


Thought it was built in the old Kei car plant?
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Old 10-20-2016, 07:09 PM   #64
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No. They are not. That is YOU(the ones asking for more power) trying to shop the 2. You WANT the BRZ, but really want WRX 2 door. The BRZ is not that.
Industry rags have compared the BRZ to the GTI to the FoST to the FiST to the WRX over the years. Why would they do that? Because the price points are ballpark, not the necessarily the exact apples apples comparisons.
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Old 10-20-2016, 09:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
The engine is nothing special. It's a naturally aspirated FA that revs to a perfectly staid 7450rpm. BMW was selling pedestrian 320is with a 2.0L M10 engine that revved to 7200rpm back in the late 70s. Honda has been selling a 2.0L Civic Si with a 8300 rpm engine for years before the BRZ came out.
The difference is that the Subaru/Toyota engine meets current emissions regulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
That fuel system also solves nothing over Subaru's own DI setup on the WRX.. and the WRX is still priced more competitively.
The D4-S helps with a few things, such as intake gunk build up and particulate emissions.
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:31 AM   #66
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So what was the big surprise mentioned in the OP? 5 hp and 5 tq?
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:41 AM   #67
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Industry rags have compared the BRZ to the GTI to the FoST to the FiST to the WRX over the years. Why would they do that? Because the price points are ballpark, not the necessarily the exact apples apples comparisons.

I don't care what the rags say. My statement lies squarely against yours about how "Subaru" is marketing the BRZ. Not who compares what. It is certainly compared to many things. Had a dude last week saying, "I'm either going to get that STI, or an F-250". Go figure.
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Old 10-21-2016, 12:11 PM   #68
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So what was the big surprise mentioned in the OP? 5 hp and 5 tq?
I read, in an earlier article, that the manual transmission cars will get a slightly revised motor with new tuning that gets rid of the infamous flat-spot in the torque curve. The peak HP goes up 5 but there is a bit more power in other parts of the rev band, which is more important.
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:04 PM   #69
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I don't care what the rags say. My statement lies squarely against yours about how "Subaru" is marketing the BRZ. Not who compares what. It is certainly compared to many things. Had a dude last week saying, "I'm either going to get that STI, or an F-250". Go figure.
Scrappydo's cousin?
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:43 PM   #70
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I don't care what the rags say. My statement lies squarely against yours about how "Subaru" is marketing the BRZ. Not who compares what. It is certainly compared to many things. Had a dude last week saying, "I'm either going to get that STI, or an F-250". Go figure.
I'm looking at used cayman S vs 4runner/tacoma
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:33 PM   #71
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I'm looking at used cayman S vs 4runner/tacoma
Waiting for next 5dr DiT STi, and contemplating a Ridgeline vs a 17 Impreza.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:38 PM   #72
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Bummed on the new front bumper. Looks like it got a fat lip and the grimace that comes with the pain of having a fat lip. Gimme a scion FR-S and ill throw toyota badges on it and call it a day.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:31 PM   #73
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It's going to be real good especially the new Supra. My neighbor big cheese at Toyota so I know.
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:45 AM   #74
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https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.WsdO2VopChB

Next-Generation Toyota 86 Reportedly Due 2021 With Bigger Engine

The center gravity will reportedly drop, too, which will potentially give the BRZ and 86 even better handlinG


Toyota and Subaru have been rather open about plans to build another generation of the 86 and BRZ twins, and a new report from Japan has shed a little more light on what to expect from the future sports coupes.

The most enticing detail is that the new generation would drop the existing 2.0-liter boxer four-cylinder in favor of a 2.4-liter unit, according to The Japan Times. The center of gravity will also be lower than on the current models.

The report makes no mention whether the mill is turbocharged. Forced induction at least seems like a possibility because new Subaru Ascent uses a 2.4-liter turbocharged powerplant that produces 260 horsepower (194 kilowatts) and 277 pound-feet (376 Newton-meters) of torque.

oyota 86 and Supra chief engineer Tetsuya Tada previously said that the only way for the factory to create a turbocharged version of the coupe would require a whole new platform. A new generation would seem like the perfect opportunity to make this change happen.

The next-gen Toyota 86 would debut in 2021, according to The Japan Times. Subaru will still handle production at its Gunma factory, which will presumably mean the new BRZ will arrive at the same time.

The BRZ will also allegedly provide a greater level of driver safety by offering Subaru's EyeSight assistance suite. The latest version on the 2019 Forester includes features like pre-collision braking, adaptive cruise control, and lane keep assist. Reverse automatic braking, blind spot detection, and rear cross traffic alert are extra options with the system.

The existing BRZ and 86 (Scion FR-S at the time) began production in 2012. A slight refresh for the 2017 model year brought small design tweaks and an extra 5 hp (4 kW) for vehicles with the manual transmission.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:31 AM   #75
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If Toyota has anything to say about it (which they do) it's not going to have a turbo; because Supra. Unless Subaru wants to have Subaru only turbo models that they solely pay for crash testing of (which they won't).

Sorry guys & gals, it's going to be a 2.4L NA boxer, with roughly 220hp/175tq
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