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Old 09-11-2020, 10:45 AM   #51
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Old 09-11-2020, 10:52 AM   #52
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what is that exhaust????
It looks like someone shoved a bunch of pencils up the car's butt.
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Old 09-11-2020, 09:33 PM   #53
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These are going to be monsters. If the S58 engine can propel a 4500 lb SUV to 0-60 in 3.3 seconds and 11.6 second 1/4 mile there's no telling how fast a vehicle packing 1k lbs less will be.
Sorry for the late reply, but definitely.

I was literally stunned when I heard the new M340i's numbers. I believe one of the magazines already got a 3.5 sec run 0-60. That's ABSURD for a lease special 3-series; a V8 Mustang/Camaro only manage 4 seconds. The M3 is gonna be absolutely shorts-paintingly stupid.
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Old 09-11-2020, 10:10 PM   #54
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Yeah, the think C/D saw 3.8 to 60 with a RWD car, running at low 12 at 114 mph. Ridiculous.
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Old 09-11-2020, 10:14 PM   #55
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That’as fast as the early water cooled 911 turbos.
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Old 09-11-2020, 10:22 PM   #56
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That’as fast as the early water cooled 911 turbos.
For sure. That's probably a 420+ bhp engine in the BMW. These days, their rated power is pretty close to whp vs. crank. So perhaps a bit more peak power than a 996TT, no lag, and much faster shifting eight speed auto.

I know which one is more fun to drive, however.

These numbers are in line with what old N54 and N55 cars with a tune have been seeing over the last 10-15 years. But now it's from the factory. 3 liters and a modern turbo is plenty of headroom to push these things around are pretty silly rates.
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Old 09-12-2020, 01:51 AM   #57
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what is that exhaust????
Stop playing, we all know that it's MoTeC.
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Old 09-12-2020, 03:13 PM   #58
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Sorry for the late reply, but definitely.

I was literally stunned when I heard the new M340i's numbers. I believe one of the magazines already got a 3.5 sec run 0-60. That's ABSURD for a lease special 3-series; a V8 Mustang/Camaro only manage 4 seconds. The M3 is gonna be absolutely shorts-paintingly stupid.
It seems I need to adjust my perception of M-Performance vs. M cars now. You're right, that is bonkers. When M-Performance first came about I thought it cheapened the brand and the badge but the stuff they are putting out now makes M cars of old look like child's play.

I still think the nomenclature could have been better though. I like Audi with their S and RS models as it feels more distinct. The average person won't know the difference between an M340i and an M3. Then again, not like it matters, as we should buy cars because we like them and not to impress random nobodies
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:15 PM   #59
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It seems I need to adjust my perception of M-Performance vs. M cars now. You're right, that is bonkers. When M-Performance first came about I thought it cheapened the brand and the badge but the stuff they are putting out now makes M cars of old look like child's play.

I still think the nomenclature could have been better though. I like Audi with their S and RS models as it feels more distinct. The average person won't know the difference between an M340i and an M3. Then again, not like it matters, as we should buy cars because we like them and not to impress random nobodies
Overall, they did it to match what Audi does (and AMG is doing with their lesser AMG models). People thought the S4 and M3 were always competitors. In reality, it was the M3 vs. RS4, with the S4 falling really more in line with the "big six" 3 series.



I don't really think "M Performance" cars are changing the game. Engines all over are getting more and more powerful. I mean, when a 335 first came out with 300 bhp in 2006 (MY07), it was nearly as fast (and probably faster in real-world driving) vs. the M3 sold just a year before. So things haven't really changed on that front. Thirteen years later it's 80 more bhp and better transmissions, but the story is largely the same IMHO.

To me, these M Performance cars are really just MSport or sport package regular cars. My wife's "MSport" N55 X1 came with ///M fender badges for goodness sake. I think your initial take that they're using the badge as a marketing tool is correct vs. making the cars any better (comparatively). Not that their performance isn't great, but that metric changes drastically with time. Since they went DI turbo, the performance value in the non-M 3 series has been there.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:26 PM   #60
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Under 4 seconds 0-60 and a skidpad performance of .97g is just insane to me out of a fairly standard mid sized luxury sedan. That's just an insane level of performance. Of course, $55,000 is a lot of money but it's still less than a base 2019 C7 Corvette MSRP and it's way more practical.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:26 PM   #61
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I feel like the real reason we see tons of segmentation in cars like BMW is because it allows them to push the top tier model up a whole lot higher than it used to be. Same with the differentiation between coup and sedan models, via running the entire number gambit.

BMW 3 series coupe used to be the same base price as the sedan.

Now? Cough up an extra 5k. Even more lol-worthy is the fact that they release 4 door "grand coupe" models of the forking even number cars which were supposed to be just coupes...

E46 m3 was 46k vs base 3 series being 36k.
New M4 is 70k vs base 4 at 46k.

Segmentation allowed price creep. That's all.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:28 PM   #62
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I had no idea the coupes were more expensive now.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Under 4 seconds 0-60 and a skidpad performance of .97g is just insane to me out of a fairly standard mid sized luxury sedan. That's just an insane level of performance. Of course, $55,000 is a lot of money but it's still less than a base 2019 C7 Corvette MSRP and it's way more practical.
The reality is that the M340i is more than enough car for 99% of people and the M3 will be overkill as anything more a weekend/track car. Obviously I would still desire the M3 because being a car guy I can't reason with the part of my brain that lusts for the best versions of any vehicle but the M340i is the better buy for almost everyone.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:42 PM   #64
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The reality is that the M340i is more than enough car for 99% of people and the M3 will be overkill as anything more a weekend/track car. Obviously I would still desire the M3 because being a car guy I can't reason with the part of my brain that lusts for the best versions of any vehicle but the M340i is the better buy for almost everyone.
I think a M340i for a daily plus a spec miata for HPDE would be a nice combination that could be had for pretty close to the price of a new M3.

It really blows my mind that a fairly boring looking small/medium german sedan that my wife might think about driving is so damn fast. It makes a modern $42,000+ STI limited look like a boy racer turd in comparison.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:52 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Under 4 seconds 0-60 and a skidpad performance of .97g is just insane to me out of a fairly standard mid sized luxury sedan. That's just an insane level of performance. Of course, $55,000 is a lot of money but it's still less than a base 2019 C7 Corvette MSRP and it's way more practical.
I don't know, is it? Keep in mind the tire improvement and transmissions.

STIs were in the 4s in 2004, 335s in 2006. And those cars were straight manuals.

Cars are just powerful these days. This is the natural progression if another 80-100 bhp, and significant improvements in tires and transmissions over 10-15 years.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:55 PM   #66
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The reality is that the M340i is more than enough car for 99% of people and the M3 will be overkill as anything more a weekend/track car. Obviously I would still desire the M3 because being a car guy I can't reason with the part of my brain that lusts for the best versions of any vehicle but the M340i is the better buy for almost everyone.
Straight line speaking, for sure. There's only so fast these cars are going to get in a straight line with how easy they're making power these days. The real difference is (hopefully) all of the other stuff. If they do it like they always have, an M3 is going to feel a significantly good bit more special vs. a fast base car.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:56 PM   #67
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I don't know, is it? Keep in mind the tire improvement and transmissions.

STIs were in the 4s in 2004, 335s in the in 2006. And those cars were straight manuals.

Cars are just powerful these days. This is the progression over another 80-100 bhp over 10-15 years, and significant improvements in tires and transmissions.
I'm talking about the current 2018+ STI that's a 5.3s 0-60 car or worse. The old ones were fire breathers. The new ones are neutered.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:58 PM   #68
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I'm talking about the current 2018+ STI that's a 5.3s 0-60 car or worse. The old ones were fire breathers. The new ones are neutered.
I mean, Subaru is a different story altogether. They haven't kept up with performance of some of the cars they used to rival. Then again, they've also managed to keep their prices in check too. Whereas all of these German things have gone nuts on price.
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Old 09-18-2020, 03:08 PM   #69
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Just got confirmation from someone who went to an M driving event that the M3/4 grill is even uglier and awkward in person than on the internet.
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Old 09-18-2020, 03:14 PM   #70
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That's too bad.
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Old 09-18-2020, 08:41 PM   #71
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Just got confirmation from someone who went to an M driving event that the M3/4 grill is even uglier and awkward in person than on the internet.
BMW definitely stuck out their neck on this one and some people are never going to like it but most people at Bimmerpost that have seen it in person say it looks better than in photos. Some people that didn't like it before still don't like it after seeing it in person but I haven't heard anyone say it looks worse in person as by most accounts it's better in person. Color of the car may also play a role.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:47 AM   #72
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I feel like the real reason we see tons of segmentation in cars like BMW is because it allows them to push the top tier model up a whole lot higher than it used to be. Same with the differentiation between coup and sedan models, via running the entire number gambit.

BMW 3 series coupe used to be the same base price as the sedan.

Now? Cough up an extra 5k. Even more lol-worthy is the fact that they release 4 door "grand coupe" models of the forking even number cars which were supposed to be just coupes...

E46 m3 was 46k vs base 3 series being 36k.
New M4 is 70k vs base 4 at 46k.

Segmentation allowed price creep. That's all.
BMW pricing is purely a byproduct of trillions in Federal Reserve money printing since 2008. People heavily invested in the stock and bond bubbles the last 10 years have so much money they don't care if the car is $50k or $90k or $120k.

Porsche sales perfectly track the stock market since 2008.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:50 AM   #73
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BMW definitely stuck out their neck on this one and some people are never going to like it but most people at Bimmerpost that have seen it in person say it looks better than in photos. Some people that didn't like it before still don't like it after seeing it in person but I haven't heard anyone say it looks worse in person as by most accounts it's better in person. Color of the car may also play a role.
This is common in business - when your sales skyrocket for reasons not related to your product (Fed printing in this case) - you get really arrogant, thinking you're brilliant cause your sales are so high.

This results in stupid decisions as the product of that overconfidence. Like that grill. BMW thinks it can do no wrong, cause it doesn't understand why its sales are so high.
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:52 PM   #74
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Wish the M340i were available in manual. That would be more than enough car for me.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:14 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
I feel like the real reason we see tons of segmentation in cars like BMW is because it allows them to push the top tier model up a whole lot higher than it used to be. Same with the differentiation between coup and sedan models, via running the entire number gambit.

BMW 3 series coupe used to be the same base price as the sedan.

Now? Cough up an extra 5k. Even more lol-worthy is the fact that they release 4 door "grand coupe" models of the forking even number cars which were supposed to be just coupes...

E46 m3 was 46k vs base 3 series being 36k.
New M4 is 70k vs base 4 at 46k.

Segmentation allowed price creep. That's all.
Its not so much segmentation that gave way for such a price gap between the M and the standard 3 series but a factor of many things. Financing an m3/4 can be had for relatively inexpensive given the cost of the vehicle. Usually cheaper than an M2. There has also been a massive growth in the $100k + income range (which in my opinion is still not enough to afford an M car but i'll digress). The fact that loans can be stretched out for 84 months with a relatively low interest rate helps too.

The M3/4 has also really separated itself from the standard 3 series in terms of performance which comes with a significantly added cost. When you factor in that M cars do not move volume similar to a 3 series, you will need to make up that bottom line by increasing cost up to the point where people will keep buying them.

I'd also venture to say the M3/4 is no longer a "sports car" but a high performance touring car given the size. The M2C, in my opinion, offers a pretty solid value although it is still an expensive car.
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