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Old 06-19-2020, 02:19 PM   #51
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Chevy has way way way more experience and R&D with the Corvette, and a guaranteed domestic market for a mid engined Vette. It's the sportscar/exotic with perhaps the best value in history, but the situation is not at all the same. Chevy's small block V8 has been honed over 60 years, Team Corvette has taken the FR platform to it's absolute limit in GTE. GM invests more in motorsport than any manufacturer on Earth, bar *maybe* VAG. They've been racing MR prototypes as long and more consistently than Toyota as well.

Toyota(and every Japanese manufacturer not named Honda) are economy car companies who had a coke bender for a decade, and now people expect them to be the coked out versions of themselves all the time. That era is never coming back, ever. Toyota got big by making economy cars with efficiency and quality.
I know that, but its no excuse, for them to bring back a legendary nameplate, which has become a cult classic and re release it as REBADGED BMW. There is a HUGE market for a all Toyota twin turbo supra, as the buyers of that car are already enthusiasts of other road and track coupes being produced. Most of them are probably already driving Z4's so wont bother getting another one just because it's rebadged and called Supra when its not a Supra.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:22 PM   #52
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I reorganized and clipped your post in order to respond to it.

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1.) It's not that they can't. They just won't. ToA seems especially against sports cars.
Because money, that's why.

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2.) Toyota didn't have to do ****, but thankfully because they did, us peasants don't have to cross-shop Miatas with Camaros and Mustangs to get our used car FR fix. Not only that, it's pointless to try and make a world sportscar when America was the country that bought the most of them, and now the regulations over here are so ****ed that it's so much easier to just take a FWD family sedan and throw tons of HP at it, or just make your luxury brand carry the load. We are the issue.
Didn't have to, but certain people at Toyota wanted to, I will always cross shop Miatas with Mustangs and Camaros, the ND2 is a really nice package and has a reasonably amount of spank in a winder of an engine.
World cars are tough regardless of application - America is big with a lot of wide straight roads, most of Europe is small with narrow windy roads. Gas is cheaper in America, so displacement can happen. There is a reason bigger american performance cars didn't happen in other countries until recently.
Part of that is shared platform development costs; RWD went out of style in non-luxury brands. Agreed that CAFE standards dictate what gets performance; you sell 99% econo-boxes that get 40+mpg and 1% of them hopped up that get 20mpg and it doesn't ding your overall score that bad.

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3.) Everyone wants a 180sx, but no one will pay for it new, because the costs of making it from scratch will put it in the upper 30's at least.
I don't want a modernized 180sx unless it's a modernized SR20DET model, hence my lack of interest in the twins; the powerplant is the reason why. I'm willing to pay a certain amount of money for a given amount of performance; I pay more attention to HP:weight ratio than I do actual horsepower or actual weight, but I have my limits (challenger is too fat for example). If the twins had the FA20DIT with a 6mt as the only powertrain option they would have cost more, but would have been way more appealing.

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4.) And at that point you have dumb **** Americans thinking, "well hell I can get muh 4000 lb muscle wagon for that much" because the dumb **** Americans that that populate the last throes of the sportscar market only see the hp figures and ring laptimes and don't think about consumables and mods.
To an extent yeah, but that's because [email protected],700lbs makes a much more compelling argument than [email protected],800lbs. Please explain to me what makes the twins a more compelling choice than a Mustang GT. The usable handling disparity isn't that great between the two on the street, but the usable power disparity on the street is massive. Unless you drive downhill both ways on a tight windy road every day, the twins are the lesser car in every other scenario.
This isn't the early 90's anymore where the America cars were pushing 1/2hp per liter in a wet noodle of a nose heavy chassis, they got off their a$$es and did something while the Japanese went on hiatus. The Japanese cars used to do more with less meaning they had a turbo4 or turbo6 in place of a lazy V8 but also had a way better chassis, the twins do less with less, they have no edge on the American offerings anymore. Offer me the same power to weight as the American offerings in a lighter car with a greater focus on handling and I'm in, but offer me a 2+2 coupe miata competitor with a crap NA flat-four and I'm out.

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5.) And god forbid the domestic manufacturers take their turbo 4s, which are actually pretty good, and put them into bespoke non convertible small rwd coupes, but that's another rant.
I would love something smaller & lighter than the Mustang/Camaro with a turbo-4 or turbo-6; it would freaking boogie; I'd also take an NA V6 that liked to wind out in the right chassis. Would be great if Nissan would/could do something with the Z name.

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6.) So if you're a fan of this increasingly niche(read:dead) segment, it shouldn't matter if Toyota wants to partner with BMW, or Subaru for that matter.
My main issue with the Toyota BMW partnership is that I won't buy a BMW for reliability & out of warranty repair cost reasons. Toyota and Lexus products are notoriously reliable, and in the event they do break, replacements are inexpensive, so is service and maintenance. Is Toyota going to subsidize the BMW cost of these BMW replacement parts to bring them in line with Toyota/Lexus parts prices? I doubt it; maybe service & repairs would be cheaper at a Toyota dealer, but do we want Toyota doing service & repairs on another non-Toyota? they couldn't handle Subaru valve work on the FRS/86, do we want them handling BMW issues?. Toyota and Lexus vehicles are designed with repairs and maintenance in mind, BMW vehicles are not.

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7.) Because I shudder to think what the used RWD market would be in 2020 if the twins hadn't showed up. They'd be asking 15k for clean s13s and FC RX7s at this point.
People are still asking stupid money for S-chassis cars even with the twins in the market, the FC RX7 is cheap because the FD existed, the FC was "cheap" before the twins. More choices isn't a bad thing though, so I have no issue with the twins existing, I just don't think they've had a profound impact on the used FR market.

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8.) Just give us a damn 6MT
100% agree; a 6mt should be in this kind of driver oriented performance car; I would have liked to have seen further division between BMW and Toyota by Toyota only offering the 6mt and BMW only offering the ZF8, but there is no way Toyota would do that considering the automatic take rate on the FRS/86, meanwhile the manual take rate on the BRZ was very high.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:27 PM   #53
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GM will also sell 30-40K C8ís a year. And most of those C8ís will not be $60K bare bones base model cars, but $70-80K each with middle of the road options.

Do the math. Toyota will be lucky to sell a couple thousand Supras a year in the US, joint venture or not.

Ford sells over 100K Mustangs a year and it helps to finance the GT350 and other options.

Itís just dollars and sense. The market is tiny and even many of the people who say they want these types of cars wonít even buy them...

Sports cars are a dying breed.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:42 PM   #54
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It only took GM 50 years to commit to a mid engine Corvette.

All Supras, with the exception of the MKIV TT, are slow. The MKIV TT was mid-pack when new and slower than the Corvette although priced similarly, but MKIV TT responded well to mods . . .which the 2020 does well (100hp gain from tune & downpipe) and clearly Toyota/BMW have in mind with the new head and lower compression, it's clearly aiming at the aftermarket.

Then there's the whole thing about it making way more power than advertised.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...at%20113%20mph.

It seems that everyone is bitching about the GR overall because it lacks one feature, 3 pedals.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:00 PM   #55
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I know that, but its no excuse, for them to bring back a legendary nameplate, which has become a cult classic and re release it as REBADGED BMW. There is a HUGE market for a all Toyota twin turbo supra, as the buyers of that car are already enthusiasts of other road and track coupes being produced. Most of them are probably already driving Z4's so wont bother getting another one just because it's rebadged and called Supra when its not a Supra.
No there isn't. The entire reason it was a hero car was a movie and culture in which it was an affordable car with massive potential thanks to circumstances that are not, and have not been replicated, nor will they ever be. The market has changed, there is no bubble era madness fueling development. Literally the only thing that hasn't changed is that Americans won't buy it in any outstanding numbers.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:09 PM   #56
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I reorganized and clipped your post in order to respond to it.


Because money, that's why.


Didn't have to, but certain people at Toyota wanted to, I will always cross shop Miatas with Mustangs and Camaros, the ND2 is a really nice package and has a reasonably amount of spank in a winder of an engine.
World cars are tough regardless of application - America is big with a lot of wide straight roads, most of Europe is small with narrow windy roads. Gas is cheaper in America, so displacement can happen. There is a reason bigger american performance cars didn't happen in other countries until recently.
Part of that is shared platform development costs; RWD went out of style in non-luxury brands. Agreed that CAFE standards dictate what gets performance; you sell 99% econo-boxes that get 40+mpg and 1% of them hopped up that get 20mpg and it doesn't ding your overall score that bad.


I don't want a modernized 180sx unless it's a modernized SR20DET model, hence my lack of interest in the twins; the powerplant is the reason why. I'm willing to pay a certain amount of money for a given amount of performance; I pay more attention to HP:weight ratio than I do actual horsepower or actual weight, but I have my limits (challenger is too fat for example). If the twins had the FA20DIT with a 6mt as the only powertrain option they would have cost more, but would have been way more appealing.


To an extent yeah, but that's because [email protected],700lbs makes a much more compelling argument than [email protected],800lbs. Please explain to me what makes the twins a more compelling choice than a Mustang GT. The usable handling disparity isn't that great between the two on the street, but the usable power disparity on the street is massive. Unless you drive downhill both ways on a tight windy road every day, the twins are the lesser car in every other scenario.
This isn't the early 90's anymore where the America cars were pushing 1/2hp per liter in a wet noodle of a nose heavy chassis, they got off their a$$es and did something while the Japanese went on hiatus. The Japanese cars used to do more with less meaning they had a turbo4 or turbo6 in place of a lazy V8 but also had a way better chassis, the twins do less with less, they have no edge on the American offerings anymore. Offer me the same power to weight as the American offerings in a lighter car with a greater focus on handling and I'm in, but offer me a 2+2 coupe miata competitor with a crap NA flat-four and I'm out.


I would love something smaller & lighter than the Mustang/Camaro with a turbo-4 or turbo-6; it would freaking boogie; I'd also take an NA V6 that liked to wind out in the right chassis. Would be great if Nissan would/could do something with the Z name.


My main issue with the Toyota BMW partnership is that I won't buy a BMW for reliability & out of warranty repair cost reasons. Toyota and Lexus products are notoriously reliable, and in the event they do break, replacements are inexpensive, so is service and maintenance. Is Toyota going to subsidize the BMW cost of these BMW replacement parts to bring them in line with Toyota/Lexus parts prices? I doubt it; maybe service & repairs would be cheaper at a Toyota dealer, but do we want Toyota doing service & repairs on another non-Toyota? they couldn't handle Subaru valve work on the FRS/86, do we want them handling BMW issues?. Toyota and Lexus vehicles are designed with repairs and maintenance in mind, BMW vehicles are not.


People are still asking stupid money for S-chassis cars even with the twins in the market, the FC RX7 is cheap because the FD existed, the FC was "cheap" before the twins. More choices isn't a bad thing though, so I have no issue with the twins existing, I just don't think they've had a profound impact on the used FR market.


100% agree; a 6mt should be in this kind of driver oriented performance car; I would have liked to have seen further division between BMW and Toyota by Toyota only offering the 6mt and BMW only offering the ZF8, but there is no way Toyota would do that considering the automatic take rate on the FRS/86, meanwhile the manual take rate on the BRZ was very high.
That was a hell of an angry, bitter rant that I went on, so to respond as concisely and politely is an achievement itself.


I'm just a bitter manchild that's still waiting for the IDx concept to become a reality, along with a rebirth of honest to god lightweight sportscars and econoboxes. The light is dying, and I'm angrily shouting at God. Also Dodge. I mean, come on. They could have had the Dart be RWD and it would have been a ****ing hit but no.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:12 PM   #57
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I still can't see myself getting a 2L version unless it came in MT, but given how fast the 3.0L are (especially with JB4), I have accepted to be okay with the ZF8AT. It's a fun little car even while just looking at her in the garage. She's only like 4 inches longer than my Golf-R.. great compact sized sports car.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:15 PM   #58
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Ariel Atom went by the other day and woke the dead. I think it was the supercharged K24 spec. It checks some of those boxes.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:19 PM   #59
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That was a hell of an angry, bitter rant that I went on, so to respond as concisely and politely is an achievement itself.


I'm just a bitter manchild that's still waiting for the IDx concept to become a reality, along with a rebirth of honest to god lightweight sportscars and econoboxes. The light is dying, and I'm angrily shouting at God. Also Dodge. I mean, come on. They could have had the Dart be RWD and it would have been a ****ing hit but no.
I have my moments, but sometimes I kick and scream, stuff my fingers in my ears and try to out-yell the other guy.

The IDx concept still hurts... Nissan dashed our collective hopes against the rocks with that one.

"Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light." -D.Thomas
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:29 PM   #60
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MK4 Supra sales were a complete disaster. They could not sell them. I remember huge discounts on them. If you compare Gen4 sales to previous gen sales the Gen4 was a total flop for Toyota and one of the big reasons why they killed the car.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:43 PM   #61
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Welp. Some unfortunate soul totaled a new Supra, a mile away from the dealership while taking it on a test drive

https://drivetribe.com/p/showroom-fr...Ts27zMybkXEJLg
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:03 PM   #62
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"seen this in a movie once...hold on"

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Old 06-19-2020, 05:18 PM   #63
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Welp. Some unfortunate soul totaled a new Supra, a mile away from the dealership while taking it on a test drive

https://drivetribe.com/p/showroom-fr...Ts27zMybkXEJLg
Well thatís one way to make a sale I guess.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:10 PM   #64
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I know that, but its no excuse, for them to bring back a legendary nameplate, which has become a cult classic and re release it as REBADGED BMW. There is a HUGE market for a all Toyota twin turbo supra, as the buyers of that car are already enthusiasts of other road and track coupes being produced. Most of them are probably already driving Z4's so wont bother getting another one just because it's rebadged and called Supra when its not a Supra.
Uh, have you seen the Toyota brand over the last 20 years? Penny pinching executives wonít r&d for ****. The Tacoma has barely been changed at all except for styling and some improved interior bits, Prius is still a Prius. Their best improved vehicle hands down is the Rav 4.

Toyota could have used the bmw engine and ZF8 trans and still made it very much a Toyota. The B series engine by bmw is a god damn tank and that trans is ****ing solid. What they should have done is put money into the everything else (chassis, suspension, interior, etc). While the car does perform extremely well, it just feels like a cheaper bmw.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:12 PM   #65
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No there isn't. The entire reason it was a hero car was a movie and culture in which it was an affordable car with massive potential thanks to circumstances that are not, and have not been replicated, nor will they ever be. The market has changed, there is no bubble era madness fueling development. Literally the only thing that hasn't changed is that Americans won't buy it in any outstanding numbers.
wrong....the supra had an reputation among enthusiasts years before the Fast and Furious movies. It also got a LOT of attention in test reviews in 90's....such that many said it was one of the greatest cars ever built. The fact is that there IS a resurgence in the market for this platform of car, and the new Corvette has stirred it up, and created interest all over again. Toyota knew what corvette was coming and they didnt want to miss out so brought back the supra name on another manufacturers car. Its a fake supra.

A real supra would be all Toyota, with a twin turbo TOYOTA engine and a retro design with modern tech. Every other manufacturer is doing it. GM is kicking everyones A$$ with the mid engine corvette in this category, so there is some panick going on to rush cars to the market that have no business being produced.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:37 PM   #66
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wrong....the supra had an reputation among enthusiasts years before the Fast and Furious movies. It also got a LOT of attention in test reviews in 90's....such that many said it was one of the greatest cars ever built. The fact is that there IS a resurgence in the market for this platform of car, and the new Corvette has stirred it up, and created interest all over again. Toyota knew what corvette was coming and they didnt want to miss out so brought back the supra name on another manufacturers car. Its a fake supra.

A real supra would be all Toyota, with a twin turbo TOYOTA engine and a retro design with modern tech. Every other manufacturer is doing it. GM is kicking everyones A$$ with the mid engine corvette in this category, so there is some panick going on to rush cars to the market that have no business being produced.
The Supra has been in the works for at least 7 years if not longer. The Corvette was just rumors and hearsay until about 3-4 years ago. Toyota is not reacting to GM, no one saw the MR Corvette being released at this price point, certainly not Toyota.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:52 PM   #67
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The Supra has been in the works for at least 7 years if not longer. The Corvette was just rumors and hearsay until about 3-4 years ago. Toyota is not reacting to GM, no one saw the MR Corvette being released at this price point, certainly not Toyota.
I agree I guess.

A C7 Corvette is still walking away from the Supra.

The last gen turbo had what, 320 bhp? That's a good bit closer to the 345 or so the Vette had at the time.

When they went with a what is really probably a 360 bhp engine, they very well knew they weren't fighting with a Corvette anymore on a performance front

It's a different car, like many are today.

With that being said, I surely can understand the disappointment of using a BMW chassis and a BMW power/drivetrain. If it means we get this "Supra", OK. But it's certainly not the same as Toyota flexing its sports car know-how, adn the pride associated with their own car out there being a strong performer/popular/etc. That is all gone.

If you're a Toyota guy, are you supposed to love this the same?

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Old 06-19-2020, 10:54 PM   #68
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I agree I guess.

A C7 Corvette is still walking away from the Supra.

The last gen turbo had what, 320 bhp? That's a good bit closer to the 345 or so the Vette had at the time.

When they went with a what is really probably a 360 bhp engine, they very well knew they weren't fighting with a Corvette anymore on a performance front

It's a different car, like many are today.

With that being said, I surely can understand the disappointment of using a BMW chassis and a BMW power/drivetrain. If it means we get this "Supra", OK. But it's certainly not the same as Toyota flexing its sports car know-how, adn the pride associated with their own car out there being a strong performer/popular/etc. That is all gone.

If you're a Toyota guy, are you supposed to love this the same?
Toyota (specifically ToA) gave up on the "Toyota man" in the early 00's.
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Old 06-20-2020, 12:02 AM   #69
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The Supra has been in the works for at least 7 years if not longer. The Corvette was just rumors and hearsay until about 3-4 years ago. Toyota is not reacting to GM, no one saw the MR Corvette being released at this price point, certainly not Toyota.
It took them 7 years to stick the supra badges on The Z4 ??? That's pretty lame if that is true......very unimaginative on Toyotas part to take the supra legacy and just slap the name on an existing BMW that has been around for 2 decades, and isnt even that great of a car compared to even a 1994 era 2JZ supra

Whether or not they are reacting to the mid engined corvette is moot....the C8 stole the show from everyone this year.
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Old 06-20-2020, 12:12 AM   #70
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2.0 Supra, at that price point, would absolutely benefit sales-wise from having a manual option. No doubt in my mind.

320hp 2.0 for $40k and 450hp 3.0 for $50k is where it really needed to be. But then what would the $65k Z4 look like? 500hp M4 slayer?
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Old 06-20-2020, 12:15 AM   #71
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2.0 Supra, at that price point, would absolutely benefit sales-wise from having a manual option. No doubt in my mind.

320hp 2.0 for $40k and 450hp 3.0 for $50k is where it really needed to be. But then what would the $65k Z4 look like? 500hp M4 slayer?
The C8 made these cars obsolete at 65,000 price range. I mean lord just park the 2 next to eachother LOL...the
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:26 AM   #72
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I agree I guess.

A C7 Corvette is still walking away from the Supra.

The last gen turbo had what, 320 bhp? That's a good bit closer to the 345 or so the Vette had at the time.

When they went with a what is really probably a 360 bhp engine, they very well knew they weren't fighting with a Corvette anymore on a performance front

It's a different car, like many are today.

With that being said, I surely can understand the disappointment of using a BMW chassis and a BMW power/drivetrain. If it means we get this "Supra", OK. But it's certainly not the same as Toyota flexing its sports car know-how, adn the pride associated with their own car out there being a strong performer/popular/etc. That is all gone.

If you're a Toyota guy, are you supposed to love this the same?
Why is it a disappointment to Toyota purists (is that a thing?) that the Supra is using a BMW chassis and engine? The last Toyota sports car . . .



woof.
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Old 06-20-2020, 03:01 AM   #73
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Why is it a disappointment to Toyota purists (is that a thing?) that the Supra is using a BMW chassis and engine? The last Toyota sports car . . .



woof.
OTOH you could get a tan Camry.....



With. TRD blower.
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Old 06-20-2020, 03:25 AM   #74
ptclaus98
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It took them 7 years to stick the supra badges on The Z4 ??? That's pretty lame if that is true......very unimaginative on Toyotas part to take the supra legacy and just slap the name on an existing BMW that has been around for 2 decades, and isnt even that great of a car compared to even a 1994 era 2JZ supra

Whether or not they are reacting to the mid engined corvette is moot....the C8 stole the show from everyone this year.
The supra's legacy only came after it had died, you act like it had a legacy like the Z cars or something.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:30 AM   #75
NighthawkSTI
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The supra's legacy only came after it had died, you act like it had a legacy like the Z cars or something.
Your confusing "legacy" with how profoundly the 2JZ supra was a success in the mid 90's. It was an immediate game changer. It was THE car at car shows to see. The styling and performance stood out. I sat in the brand new Twin Turbo Supra in 1994 Boston International Auto show and was amazed by it back then as was every other performance car enthusiast. Sure the supra got immortalized when they stopped producing it and it became even more obvious how influential the car was and was going to continue to be...which THEN became its legacy.

To bring this car back now so unimaginably by using a totally different manufacturers existing model and slap on the supra name is just dumb. This new one is not a supra and there is nothing iconic about it. If its true that they took 7 years to do that then all that tells me is that whatever plans they had got scrapped and they decided to take the easy way out and just stick the supra badge on totally different manufacturers sports car and rush it to market. Its a fake supra no matter how you slice it. Not the real deal. Also its reputation for the bullet proof 2JZ and Toyotas ability to build a bullet proof performance engine was also scrapped, and they instead chose a manufacturer (BMW) that has a pretty rocky reputation for engine reliability. This new Z4 rebadged supra is a step down from the mid 90's car even.
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