Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday April 9, 2020
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > FA Series Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-26-2020, 02:18 PM   #26
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
That Tomei is WIDE
Incorrect.

WIDE!

and

VERY WIDE!

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 03-26-2020, 02:22 PM   #27
Waddlz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Brighton, CO
Vehicle:
2012 STi
SWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Killer B didnt even put a graphic to show their tubing is WIDE!, clearly it's impossiblce for them to match Tomei's precision.
amateurs
Waddlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 02:31 PM   #28
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

On a more interesting note.. they have a titanium I-pipe that I didn't know existed.

http://www.tomeiusa.com/_2003web-cat..._pipe_wrx.html



Could make a nice addition to Cobb's titanium catback saving 20+ lbs in total. But if you also wanted to replace the shorter OEM J pipe section, you would either need to wait on theirs or rather go with PRL's. I don't believe Killer B makes their J pipe & intermediate pipe any longer.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 03-26-2020 at 02:39 PM.
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 02:50 PM   #29
GlarryHoodDIT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 460907
Join Date: Jan 2017
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2016 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
amateurs
It's like you didnt even see Tomei's comparison between their headers and OEM.



Look at all those error messages, I'm surprised the ECU can even work with all those pending codes on the OEM headers! Plus, OEM exhaust flow turns yellow instead of staying red, lame af.
GlarryHoodDIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 03:04 PM   #30
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Look at all those error messages, I'm surprised the ECU can even work with all those pending codes on the OEM headers! Plus, OEM exhaust flow turns yellow instead of staying red, lame af.
It's clear that Tomei used some very expensive, state of the art CAD modeling & simulation programs when designing this header and testing for optimal flow. Countless hours of dyno testing as well.
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 03:18 PM   #31
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

For those truly interested in this product, please don't purchase this expecting that your FA will sound exactly like the EJ. I'd wait for some audio clips first.

The EJ still has a distinctive exhaust note compared to the FA20DIT.. whether it be the EJ257 paired with an ELH or the EJ207 with the OEM twin scroll setup.
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 03:44 PM   #32
Waddlz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Brighton, CO
Vehicle:
2012 STi
SWP

Default

function elh_check() {
cat FA20DIT | grep header
if [ $header = UELH]; then
Echo "Cool rumble noises"
else
echo "honda noises"
fi
}
Waddlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 04:11 PM   #33
Straight6
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 419593
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default

I was thinking of doing the headers delete but I think this maybe a better option.
Straight6 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 04:28 PM   #34
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

usually I try and steer clear of wide gaps, but I like this one!!!!!
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 07:51 PM   #35
Unabomber
👏 Big Ron 👏
Moderator
 
Member#: 18062
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: I can save you a ton of cash
Vehicle:
on car parts so PM
me b4 j00 buy

Default

On a list of good ideas, this is up there with invading Russia in the winter.
Unabomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 07:55 PM   #36
Straight6
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 419593
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
On a list of good ideas, this is up there with invading Russia in the winter.
Straight6 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2020, 11:40 PM   #37
lefty o
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 512654
Join Date: Mar 2020
Vehicle:
2019 wrx
red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
On a list of good ideas, this is up there with invading Russia in the winter.
yupper!
lefty o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 08:18 AM   #38
redline144
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 493764
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Wheeling, WV
Vehicle:
2019 WRX Limited
Ice Silver Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
On a list of good ideas, this is up there with invading Russia in the winter.
redline144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 11:31 AM   #39
gurusan
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 258165
Join Date: Sep 2010
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Forest Grove
Vehicle:
2015 WRX
DGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
On a list of good ideas, this is up there with invading Russia in the winter.
Good idea from the manufacturer's standpoint, you know this will sell. lame-o
gurusan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 01:34 PM   #40
Rexy18
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 500337
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default

I dunno that it is such a bad idea or that it reduces performance. Someone posted a dyno video of a cvt making comparable power to a 5mt with oem header. So it doesn’t reduce peak power or performance in a significant way, per video. If the point of video was to show power losses it failed miserably.

Would i buy it? No, i think its a useless gimmick like many others, starting w aos/catch cans or any intake. Certainly not in the same sphere of attacking Russia in the winter in my opinion. I do find the statement hilarious though.

Last edited by Rexy18; 03-27-2020 at 01:56 PM.
Rexy18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 01:56 PM   #41
YungBoba
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 450808
Join Date: Jul 2016
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Vehicle:
2017 WRX Premium
WR Blue Pearl

Default

Regardless of whether or not this is a good product (my money says it's probably not), Tomei is clever as hell because they know this will sell like hotcakes. Just go look on the cesspool that is the 2015+ WRX group on Facebook where all the monkeys are going WILD for this thing.

You know, the same group where every other post is "what oil should I run??" or "just put on my STi wing, F*** the haters bro".
YungBoba is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 03:33 PM   #42
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

^yeah I mean look how many Alexa's Amazon shipped in from China, talk about useless gimmick that only Americans would buy.
Basically a device that plays music so you don't have to take the extra 4 seconds to bring it up on your phone
And you have to feel the shame of being willing to say, "Hey Alexa" every time you want it to bring up music. That's probably the worst part.
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 07:04 PM   #43
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
I dunno that it is such a bad idea or that it reduces performance. Someone posted a dyno video of a cvt making comparable power to a 5mt with oem header. So it doesn’t reduce peak power or performance in a significant way, per video. If the point of video was to show power losses it failed miserably.
It will absolutely reduce performance. There's more to performance than peak numbers which can vary wildly by dyno. Those numbers only tell a small fraction of the story.

However, you can still compare powerbands and area under the curve between different dynos to extract some useful information. Even then, it doesn't tell you about things like transient boost & partial throttle response, fuel economy, etc.

This UELH takes away the advantages of an equal length header and a proper twin scroll turbo setup. You're reducing the engine's VE and you'll end up with slower spool, worse transient response, a narrower powerband, reduced fuel economy, and so on.. while also increasing the chances of detonation/knock thanks to unequal cylinder exhaust pressures & EGTs.

There's a reason why Subaru designed the EJ207 & JDM S cars with an ELH & twin scroll turbo setup. There's a reason why they did the same for the FA20DIT. There's a reason why Killer B designed an ELH that's a very popular mod with the EJ crowd. There's a reason why WRC cars and the 600+ hp STI Type RA use ELHs..

Just like there's a reason that the Facebook crowd is going crazy for this gimmick.. and a reason that Tomei didn't provide any dyno comparisons.
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 07:44 PM   #44
lefty o
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 512654
Join Date: Mar 2020
Vehicle:
2019 wrx
red

Default

aside from twin scroll benefitting from equal length, that tight 180 bend kills any benefit from the larger diameter tubing. liquids and gasses do not like to make 180 degr turns.

Last edited by lefty o; 03-28-2020 at 11:02 PM. Reason: cant type lol
lefty o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2020, 12:01 PM   #45
Norm Peterson
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 498642
Join Date: Mar 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: our wrx IS the family sedan
Vehicle:
'19 WRX Limited 6M
'08 Mustang GT (the toy)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
It will absolutely reduce performance. There's more to performance than peak numbers which can vary wildly by dyno. Those numbers only tell a small fraction of the story.

However, you can still compare powerbands and area under the curve between different dynos to extract some useful information. Even then, it doesn't tell you about things like transient boost & partial throttle response, fuel economy, etc.

This UELH takes away the advantages of an equal length header and a proper twin scroll turbo setup. You're reducing the engine's VE and you'll end up with slower spool, worse transient response, a narrower powerband, reduced fuel economy, and so on.. while also increasing the chances of detonation/knock thanks to unequal cylinder exhaust pressures & EGTs.

There's a reason why Subaru designed the EJ207 & JDM S cars with an ELH & twin scroll turbo setup. There's a reason why they did the same for the FA20DIT. There's a reason why Killer B designed an ELH that's a very popular mod with the EJ crowd. There's a reason why WRC cars and the 600+ hp STI Type RA use ELHs..

Just like there's a reason that the Facebook crowd is going crazy for this gimmick.. and a reason that Tomei didn't provide any dyno comparisons.
Facebook crowd, indeed.

The average exhaust system customer associates (1) the amount of exhaust sound and (2) the 'roughness' of that sound, with the assumption that there's more power.

Doesn't seem to matter if it only sounds like there's more power, not even when it really means that there's less of it.


Norm
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2020, 01:02 AM   #46
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty o View Post
aside from twin scroll benefitting from equal length, that tight 180 bend kills any benefit from the larger diameter tubing. liquids and gasses do not like to make 180 degr turns.
What?! This bend isn't efficient?



Of course larger diameter isn't always better either.

In addition to the downsides of an UELH, this header also increases the diameter and length of the primaries. This increases header volume and reduces exhaust gas velocity. This will result in slower spool and worse transient boost/part throttle response.

"WIDE!" larger volume tubing also exposes the exhaust gasses to more surface area transmitting more heat and reducing exhaust energy. Different metals also have different heat retention. For example, Killer B uses 321 SS vs Tomei's 304 SS. 321 will conduct less heat than 304 thus pulling less heat/energy from the exhaust gasses and further increasing velocity & turbine efficiency. Of course 321 is also much more durable in high heat, turbocharged applications. The 2 piece Tomei design will likely have issues leaking down the road.

And then there's the completely unnecessary 90 degree followed by a 180 degree bend that you mentioned Clearly the exhaust velocity being delivered from cylinders 1 & 3 is going to be significantly reduced due to this design. That will causes those cylinders to run hotter increasing their chances of knock/detonation. It will also increase back pressure at those cylinders reducing VE and overall power.

Again, the EJ257 has an UELH as it reduced manufacturing cost (material, weight, etc.) and created the overall shortest primaries (least header volume) due to the turbo's location on the EJ. This minimized energy loss on cylinders 1 & 3 due to their shorter primaries based on the asymmetrical, UEL design.

On the FA20DIT, the header is already symmetrical with the shortest possible (or close to it) primaries to maximize exhaust energy, velocity, etc. due to the turbo's central, low mount position directly below the exhaust ports. Unlike the EJ257 header, Tomei's UELH is actually increasing the primary runner lengths on cylinders 1 & 3 to create the inefficient, unequal length design allowing for the collision of exhaust pulses creating the "rumble". So for all that hate the UELH on the EJ, it's even worse on the FA because it increases header length/volume and defeats the purpose of the twin scroll turbo. Now the twin scroll turbine housing will just act as a restriction without any of the twin scroll benefits.

I know, but "WIDE!" and "RUMBLE!"

Last edited by WRXnick16; 03-30-2020 at 10:06 AM.
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2020, 06:57 AM   #47
contaminatrix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 435611
Join Date: Dec 2015
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Nairobi
Vehicle:
2002 SG5-2.0-XT-JDM
45A, originally 18L

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
For those truly interested in this product, please don't purchase this expecting that your FA will sound exactly like the EJ. I'd wait for some audio clips first.

The EJ still has a distinctive exhaust note compared to the FA20DIT.. whether it be the EJ257 paired with an ELH or the EJ207 with the OEM twin scroll setup.
no greater sound than that of an EJ. I'll also be waiting to hear how this sounds seeing that Suby decided to change this now that no one asked for it...
contaminatrix is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2020, 08:51 AM   #48
Norm Peterson
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 498642
Join Date: Mar 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: our wrx IS the family sedan
Vehicle:
'19 WRX Limited 6M
'08 Mustang GT (the toy)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by contaminatrix View Post
no greater sound than that of an EJ. I'll also be waiting to hear how this sounds seeing that Suby decided to change this now that no one asked for it...
Power and especially throttle response would be reasons to go equal-length.

Sounds like you're too young to remember what the 36 and 40 HP flat-four VW Beetles sounded like. Flat-4 rumble as the sound of performance . . . not



Norm

Last edited by Norm Peterson; 03-30-2020 at 09:27 AM.
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2020 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.