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Old 06-28-2009, 01:24 AM   #1
FromageTheDog
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Question Question about brake pad life

I go through 2-3 sets of rear pads for every set of front pads, which doesn't seem normal, so I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong. Current setup:

Stoptech front BBK w/332mm rotors, Ferodo D2500 pads
H6 rear setup, Axxis Deluxe pads

In daily driver use, the wear pattern seems pretty even front to back, but a single track day will wear the rear pads down to the backing plates. I've tried different pads; OEM compound wore even faster (I was hoping the forward shift in brake bias might extend pad life), and the rear bias shift with Axxis ULT pads made the car a bit nervous under heavy braking (lasted the longest, though). Axxis Deluxe pads sit right in between the ULTs and OEM pads in life and performance, as one might expect.

Is the rearward bias of the Stoptech BBK combined with the increased torque of the H6 rotor just killing the pads? I'm not particularly attached to the H6 rotor setup; the only motivation was the increased heat capacity of the larger rotor. If I can return to a more sane pad wear pattern with the stock sized rotor, I'll happily throw them back on.

...or is this pattern of pad usage totally normal?
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:07 AM   #2
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Well, the first thing I'd say is that all those pads aren't suited for track use. Otherwise I'd say something isn't right. I've had the same rear pads on my tracked STI for 2 years and they're maybe 1/2 worn (PFC 01's). Maybe you got the STI Stoptechs instead of the WRX version?
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Old 06-28-2009, 11:11 AM   #3
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^^^Exactly.

2500's, although not great, can hold up to mild track running. The Axxis pads are completely unsuitable for that kind of heat. I'd expect them to only last a day back there.
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Old 06-28-2009, 12:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mav1c View Post
Well, the first thing I'd say is that all those pads aren't suited for track use.
I assume you're talking about the rear pads, right? The Ferodos have been absolutely problem-free for me. I'm no track rat by any means (maybe a track mouse ), with ~3-4 track days per year, so consider that part too.

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Originally Posted by mav1c View Post
Otherwise I'd say something isn't right. I've had the same rear pads on my tracked STI for 2 years and they're maybe 1/2 worn (PFC 01's). Maybe you got the STI Stoptechs instead of the WRX version?
Well, I can certainly try running a dedicated race pad in the back; I'm just worried about upsetting the brake balance; with the H6 rotors in back and identical compound pads all around, I can always hear the rear ABS activate before the front.

As for the front BBK -- all the paperwork definitely says WRX, not STi, but who knows. Maybe I should try going back to the stock-sized rear rotor?
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Old 06-28-2009, 02:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FromageTheDog View Post
Well, I can certainly try running a dedicated race pad in the back; I'm just worried about upsetting the brake balance; with the H6 rotors in back and identical compound pads all around, I can always hear the rear ABS activate before the front.

As for the front BBK -- all the paperwork definitely says WRX, not STi, but who knows. Maybe I should try going back to the stock-sized rear rotor?
Certainly don't run dedicated race pads in the rear with street pads (2500's) up front.

Try running 2500's in front, and 2500's or at least HP+'s, EBC yellow, etc. in the rear. Again, you should not be surprised that your mild street pads (Axxis Del.) are going to the backing plates after one track day. They are completely inadequate for the temps you see. You're lucky you're getting a day out of them.

Forget the bias, etc. for now. You should be focusing on step 1, proper pads, before looking further into your system. There are countless posts about guys burning through street pads at the track. You should expect nothing less.

There's a reason they wear fine on the street!
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
Try running 2500's in front, and 2500's or at least HP+'s, EBC yellow, etc. in the rear.
Roger wilco.

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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
Again, you should not be surprised that your mild street pads (Axxis Del.) are going to the backing plates after one track day. They are completely inadequate for the temps you see. You're lucky you're getting a day out of them.
...and in fact I'm not. I realized yesterday when swapping in new pads (Axxis Del. -- never to track again!) that the pads wore to the plates and gouged neat concentric rings into my rear rotors. Ouch. Stupid $90 mistake...

Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
Forget the bias, etc. for now. You should be focusing on step 1, proper pads, before looking further into your system.
Fair enough. I'll definitely try the EBC yellows in back; the price is right on those guys. I'm shocked that the rear 2500s are almost as expensive as the massive front ST40 pads...!

Do you folks recommend swapping pads at the track, or is daily commute wear (400 miles/week for me) going to be largely in the noise relative to track days?
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FromageTheDog View Post
Roger wilco.



...and in fact I'm not. I realized yesterday when swapping in new pads (Axxis Del. -- never to track again!) that the pads wore to the plates and gouged neat concentric rings into my rear rotors. Ouch. Stupid $90 mistake...



Fair enough. I'll definitely try the EBC yellows in back; the price is right on those guys. I'm shocked that the rear 2500s are almost as expensive as the massive front ST40 pads...!

Do you folks recommend swapping pads at the track, or is daily commute wear (400 miles/week for me) going to be largely in the noise relative to track days?
2500's are streetable and pretty quiet (but expensive to run daily). Yellows are kinda loud. I'd swap the few times a year you go.

Amazed on the price as well , guess it's all down to volume. Have fun!
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Old 06-28-2009, 11:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FromageTheDog View Post
Fair enough. I'll definitely try the EBC yellows in back; the price is right on those guys.
I'd really suggest trying a pad that's known to perform and wear well on the track, both front and rear, from a brand that has a range of options for different torque, and work from there. If you find something cheap that works for you, that's all well and good, but I doubt you will. There are expensive pads that wear really fast on the track. But I'm not aware of any cheap pads that don't wear fast. With cheap pads, you're likely to run into a false economy. You'll either burn the pads fast, or the rotors, or both.

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Do you folks recommend swapping pads at the track, or is daily commute wear (400 miles/week for me) going to be largely in the noise relative to track days?
Do NOT commute on the street with race pads. Your pads and rotors will both wear EXTREMELY FAST. That said, you'll be fine swapping them in your garage the night before and event, and swapping back after you get home.

-Mike
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:04 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
I'd really suggest trying a pad that's known to perform and wear well on the track, both front and rear, from a brand that has a range of options for different torque, and work from there. If you find something cheap that works for you, that's all well and good, but I doubt you will. There are expensive pads that wear really fast on the track. But I'm not aware of any cheap pads that don't wear fast. With cheap pads, you're likely to run into a false economy. You'll either burn the pads fast, or the rotors, or both.



Do NOT commute on the street with race pads. Your pads and rotors will both wear EXTREMELY FAST. That said, you'll be fine swapping them in your garage the night before and event, and swapping back after you get home.

-Mike
2500's are not race pads and are very common to run as daily driving pads.

Further, EBC yellows, while lacking the bite of more serious track pads, are widely hald to hold up just fine for someone just starting out. They are EASY on rotors, and have longevity comparable with other pads. They just lack bite at high temps.

Have you even used either of those pads before?
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Do NOT commute on the street with race pads. Your pads and rotors will both wear EXTREMELY FAST. That said, you'll be fine swapping them in your garage the night before and event, and swapping back after you get home.
This depends on what brand pad you use. In principal I agree but, I'm a lazy sort so, I run my Carbotechs on the street and track. I find them to be the best pads period that I've ever used and they don't eat the rotors. I'm not concerned about dust or noise though and they are dusty and noisy.

I think you have a more fundamental problem than just pad selection. More likely the front brakes aren't pulling their weight so, the rears are doing too much work. Maybe this is pad selection like, too little pad in the front but, I wonder if your BBK is actually working properly. I've often run track pads in the front and cheap street pads in the back (though not on a subaru) and not had problems with excessive rear wear. You really want an aggressive pad for the front and some lessor pad in the rear. It'll keep the rear in check under heavy braking.
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Old 06-29-2009, 11:45 AM   #11
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I have the same problem with my 08 WRX with Brembo fronts and front track pads (DTC70 or Pagid Yellow). The problem on the 08 WRX rear is that there are very few actual track pads available.

You may want to try to increase cooling back there with some ducting to help but also a real track pad will last much longer if you can find one for that caliper. In the long run it will be cheaper to buy a more expensive race pad (Hawk DTC 60 etc) as you won't have to buy new pads every event.

Thanks,
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
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I think you have a more fundamental problem than just pad selection. More likely the front brakes aren't pulling their weight so, the rears are doing too much work. Maybe this is pad selection like, too little pad in the front but, I wonder if your BBK is actually working properly. I've often run track pads in the front and cheap street pads in the back (though not on a subaru) and not had problems with excessive rear wear. You really want an aggressive pad for the front and some lessor pad in the rear. It'll keep the rear in check under heavy braking.
OK, so clearly the pads I'm running are inadequate for the track. I'll try EBC Yellows as per REX8's suggestion to start with and see how those go.

That raises the next issue -- BBK + H6 rear rotor + track-ish pad in back screws up the brake balance (at least for me), so I'll step back to the stock rear rotor size. I'm not convinced the additional ~1" in diameter really bought all that much heat capacity on these solid rotors anyway...

Any recommendations against the second point above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
I have the same problem with my 08 WRX with Brembo fronts and front track pads (DTC70 or Pagid Yellow). The problem on the 08 WRX rear is that there are very few actual track pads available.

You may want to try to increase cooling back there with some ducting to help but also a real track pad will last much longer if you can find one for that caliper. In the long run it will be cheaper to buy a more expensive race pad (Hawk DTC 60 etc) as you won't have to buy new pads every event.
I'll definitely keep this in mind; if I get to this point I'll just bite the bullet and swap pads in the night before and back the night after a track day. It just really seems to me that with the bias set up right, that I should be able to force the front brakes to carry most of the heat load. It just isn't working out that way in practice...
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
2500's are not race pads and are very common to run as daily driving pads.

Further, EBC yellows, while lacking the bite of more serious track pads, are widely hald to hold up just fine for someone just starting out. They are EASY on rotors, and have longevity comparable with other pads. They just lack bite at high temps.

Have you even used either of those pads before?
In the 2nd part of my post, talking about not street-driving track pads, I wasn't talking specifically about 2500s (which I know aren't track pads), or the yellows. I was talking about actual race pads, which don't stop well and wear crazy fast when they're not up to temperature. Perhaps those comments weren't relevant... I did skim several posts.

And if a pad is capable of not biting at high temps for a reason other than because it's melting away so fast it doesn't provide any friction, I'd love to hear it.

-Mike
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Old 06-29-2009, 04:18 PM   #14
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I know the Hawk DTC60-70 have plenty of bite even when cold and I like this in a track pad. The problem however is that when used on a street car the pads will not get to a tempature where the pad is easy on the rotors. At colder temps they are extremely abrasive and hard on rotors but when used at the correct operating temp have proven very friendly on my StopTech 355 kit.

There are some pads which are downright freightening until up to temp but the Hawk stuff isn't that way. They will squeel like crazy however on the street (pad deposits wear off). LOL!
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:48 PM   #15
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Well, while going back to the stock-sized rear rotors, I also discovered that my piston boots have been pretty badly scorched. So clearly too much heat back there.

What are some suggestions for getting cooling air back there? It's not like the fronts, where the solution is pretty direct...
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:36 PM   #16
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im betting the boots are burnt up becuuase the pads got worn to the backing plates and left little to no insulation to protect the rubber parts. With a full depth pad that isnt wearing out super fast you should see much longer component life and no need for rear cooling
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post

And if a pad is capable of not biting at high temps for a reason other than because it's melting away so fast it doesn't provide any friction, I'd love to hear it.

-Mike


Take a look at friction coefficient graphs for any brake pads, they have an ideal operating temperature, under or over which friction falls off.

The pad doesn't have to be "melting away so fast", it can just be operating out of its ideal friction range. Like yellows, their coefficient falls off soon after 1000 degrees, but will still last plenty long when run that hot.

So yes, quite certainly you can be above a pads ideal operating temp, but not so much that you're melting the the material off.
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:53 PM   #18
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Take a look at friction coefficient graphs for any brake pads, they have an ideal operating temperature, under or over which friction falls off.

The pad doesn't have to be "melting away so fast", it can just be operating out of its ideal friction range. Like yellows, their coefficient falls off soon after 1000 degrees, but will still last plenty long when run that hot.

So yes, quite certainly you can be above a pads ideal operating temp, but not so much that you're melting the the material off.
So if you took one of those pads, and continued to operate them above their temperature range, and just pushed the brake pedal harder, you don't think you'd end up destroying the pads? I suppose anything is possible, but in the real world, things generally get softer when they get hot, and soft things wear faster.

-Mike
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
So if you took one of those pads, and continued to operate them above their temperature range, and just pushed the brake pedal harder, you don't think you'd end up destroying the pads? I suppose anything is possible, but in the real world, things generally get softer when they get hot, and soft things wear faster.

-Mike
I can attest to material sloughing off with hot pads -- at least one of the pads I ran last weekend looked like it had been dipped half-way in strong acid, with ~2-3mm of material on one side, and just a scarred, grainy looking ~0.5mm layer on the other half.

EBC Yellows are on order from Jamie. Really looking forward to trying out this new compound!
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:43 PM   #20
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With your current setup, how hard is it to lock up the front wheels? I'm just curious if the front brakes are pulling their weight. I can lock up my brakes at will at any speed with just the factory Brembos,decent pads and decent rubber.

Like Mav1c, my rears just don't wear. Since the fronts are supposed to be doing 70% of the braking, the rears shouldn't be wearing or getting THAT hot. I still have this sneaking suspicion that the rears are being asked to do too much because the fronts aren't pulling their weight. Something like the piston sizes being wrong so, your brake balance is WAY off.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:42 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
With your current setup, how hard is it to lock up the front wheels? I'm just curious if the front brakes are pulling their weight. I can lock up my brakes at will at any speed with just the factory Brembos,decent pads and decent rubber.

Like Mav1c, my rears just don't wear. Since the fronts are supposed to be doing 70% of the braking, the rears shouldn't be wearing or getting THAT hot. I still have this sneaking suspicion that the rears are being asked to do too much because the fronts aren't pulling their weight. Something like the piston sizes being wrong so, your brake balance is WAY off.
What are decent pads and rubber? That can mean a lot of different things. On track, with RS-2s and DS2500s, yes, I can activate ABS at will (do you pull the ABS fuse or something to allow it to actually lock?).

For what it's worth, I did call Stoptech tech support and suggested this (i.e. incorrectly sized pistons) as a possibility. Didn't elicit much of a reaction. Not sure what that means.

I've said this several times now, but it probably bears repeating -- in addition to the (say) WRX-specific BBK I'm running, I was running the H6 rear rotor. You guys must know what I mean, right? It's an inch larger in diameter than stock. The tech support guy balked at the idea that I was running the larger rear rotor, given that the BBK already shifts bias 10% rearward.

Can't say I was entirely happy with the conversation, BTW. Like most tech support types, he seemed more interested in talking at me than talking with me. But that seems to be the way of things.

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Old 07-02-2009, 07:14 AM   #22
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My rear pads and rotors don't wear either. I've have the same set of rear pads for over 15 track days and they still have plenty of life left.

-Duncan
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
So if you took one of those pads, and continued to operate them above their temperature range, and just pushed the brake pedal harder, you don't think you'd end up destroying the pads? I suppose anything is possible, but in the real world, things generally get softer when they get hot, and soft things wear faster.

-Mike
Of course you can. Case in point, the OP is clearly melting his pads. Trying to run street pads on the track absolutely will just overheat and smear the material right off. I was just pointing out that not every case is this worst-case senario. It is possible to run pads just over idea heat range, still have reasonalbe life, but have the friction fall off. This is especially true with metalic track pads, it takes a LOT to simply melt them like you can a street pad, but you can easily get beyond their ideal temp range....aka Hawk Blues, XP8's and even 10's. Just try to smear the material off of them....but you can certainly get them above their ideal operating range.

That kind of behavior is quite common.

In general, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, we all agree why his rear pads went so quickly. But your assumption that you can't heat a pad past ideal and not melt it off is flat out wrong.

Last edited by REX8; 07-02-2009 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:46 AM   #24
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With your current setup, how hard is it to lock up the front wheels? I'm just curious if the front brakes are pulling their weight. I can lock up my brakes at will at any speed with just the factory Brembos,decent pads and decent rubber.

Like Mav1c, my rears just don't wear. Since the fronts are supposed to be doing 70% of the braking, the rears shouldn't be wearing or getting THAT hot. I still have this sneaking suspicion that the rears are being asked to do too much because the fronts aren't pulling their weight. Something like the piston sizes being wrong so, your brake balance is WAY off.
Have you ever tracked with a rear pad like an Axxis Delux? I'm surprised they lasted the day.

Ran a set of HPS's in the rear my first track day (200 whp WRX, XP8's up front). From new to plate in 3 sessions. Ran Red-stuff on the back of an S2000's in a pinch as well. From 3/4 to plate in 2.5 sessions. Those Axxis pads are MUCH less capable than redstuff or HPSs. You should fully expect to destroy them in a hurry, at least in my experience.

Not to mention 05 WRX's are much harder on rear brakes with their auto-bias feature.
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:14 AM   #25
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Check the rear caliper, and see if is actually still in working order.
My guess is the overheating melted something, so dirt could get in seizing the caliper.
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