Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday October 21, 2019
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-14-2019, 07:08 PM   #1
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default Help with possible piston problem

Hi all,

I did a used oil analysis and it came back with excessive aluminum, iron, and lead content. I stuck a borescope camera in the cylinders and cylinder 1 appears to have oil and tiny pieces of something in it. Any idea what that could be? The other 3 cylinders looked dry.

Thanks for the help!



* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 06-14-2019, 07:21 PM   #2
Waddlz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Brighton, CO
Vehicle:
2012 STi
SWP

Default

From the pictures, it looks like you just have some blowby. Or are you talking about the particles near the cylinder walls?

What was "excessive" in the UOA?
Waddlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 07:30 PM   #3
Suryank
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 500698
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
From the pictures, it looks like you just have some blowby. Or are you talking about the particles near the cylinder walls?

What was "excessive" in the UOA?
+1
Suryank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 08:26 PM   #4
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
From the pictures, it looks like you just have some blowby. Or are you talking about the particles near the cylinder walls?

What was "excessive" in the UOA?
Aluminum was 111ppm, Iron was 17ppm, Lead was 11ppm. It said average values are 4, 9, and 2 respectively. I thought the particles near the cylinder wall were suspicious, but I have no idea what normal wear looks like. It's a rebuilt engine with 13000 miles on it.

Thanks for the help!
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2019, 10:57 AM   #5
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Anyone know if the particles in the pictures are normal?
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 10:01 AM   #6
BlackFighter
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193940
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Philly
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STI Black
RalliSpec Shortblock

Default

Anyway you can stick a clean rag in the hole and hope to get some of those "particles" stuck to the rag so you can pull it out to see how hard they are? Don't want to scare you ahead of time but to me it almost looks like a busted ringland, and those particles are pcs of the ringland. No particles that should be normal. They can get stuck between the piston and cyl wall and rally score up the the walls. Plus you said the other 3 pistons looks dry with no particles?
BlackFighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 11:12 AM   #7
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFighter View Post
Anyway you can stick a clean rag in the hole and hope to get some of those "particles" stuck to the rag so you can pull it out to see how hard they are? Don't want to scare you ahead of time but to me it almost looks like a busted ringland, and those particles are pcs of the ringland. No particles that should be normal. They can get stuck between the piston and cyl wall and rally score up the the walls. Plus you said the other 3 pistons looks dry with no particles?
That's a good idea, I'll try to get some of the particles out.
Would a broken ringland affect compression? I did a compression test a few weeks ago and got 120psi on all cylinders with the engine cold. The other
pistons do look dry without particles.

Piston 2:


Piston 3:


Piston 4:
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 12:12 PM   #8
Waddlz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Brighton, CO
Vehicle:
2012 STi
SWP

Default

to be honest, it looks fine to me.

When I cracked a ringland, compression test showed 60 psi cold on cylinder 4. 125 on all others.

there MIGHT be some scoring on the 2nd cylinder wall from the picture, but without tearing it down I wouldn't worry about it.

I assume you went with blackstone? While your wear metals seem high, you cant use an UOA to identify a failure. Some people have perfect UOAs and they spin a bearing, and some people have high wear metals for years with 0 issues.

My wifes brand new 2014 WRX was showing 5 ppm silver content at 10k miles. People were telling me "its gonna blow up soon" so i traded it in. Talked to the new owners not to long ago and its got 95k miles and the SB has never been replaced. They've only had to do basic repairs on it.

I had a UOA done in June 2018 and it showed excessive wear. I changed oils to a "thicker more robust" 5w-40 and did another UOA December. I had 40 silver content, 110+ copper, 11 lead etc etc. blackstone flagged my copper but the oil I was using uses copper as an anti-wear additive.

So I stopped doing them, because honestly I'm not going to replace an engine that is running perfectly fine now in the chance it may blow up tomorrow because a UOA said I had high wear metals. UOA are really a tool for checking how well your oil is doing, if its shearing down, if its not holding up(which is what I experienced with motul 5w-40)
Waddlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 02:02 PM   #9
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
to be honest, it looks fine to me.

When I cracked a ringland, compression test showed 60 psi cold on cylinder 4. 125 on all others.

there MIGHT be some scoring on the 2nd cylinder wall from the picture, but without tearing it down I wouldn't worry about it.

I assume you went with blackstone? While your wear metals seem high, you cant use an UOA to identify a failure. Some people have perfect UOAs and they spin a bearing, and some people have high wear metals for years with 0 issues.

My wifes brand new 2014 WRX was showing 5 ppm silver content at 10k miles. People were telling me "its gonna blow up soon" so i traded it in. Talked to the new owners not to long ago and its got 95k miles and the SB has never been replaced. They've only had to do basic repairs on it.

I had a UOA done in June 2018 and it showed excessive wear. I changed oils to a "thicker more robust" 5w-40 and did another UOA December. I had 40 silver content, 110+ copper, 11 lead etc etc. blackstone flagged my copper but the oil I was using uses copper as an anti-wear additive.

So I stopped doing them, because honestly I'm not going to replace an engine that is running perfectly fine now in the chance it may blow up tomorrow because a UOA said I had high wear metals. UOA are really a tool for checking how well your oil is doing, if its shearing down, if its not holding up(which is what I experienced with motul 5w-40)
Thanks for the input. I did use Blackstone and their comments suggested the aluminum would be coming from a piston. Over the winter the engine got louder, sounds like piston slap and only goes away with a few minutes of driving. Prior to that piston slap would go away as soon as the engine warmed up. It had a stuck PCV and I could see some oil in the exhaust, so I wasn't sure if that messed anything up. Replaced the PCV and no oil in the exhaust anymore. I have a catch can which doesn't fill up too much. It had a lot of water over the winter, I'm guessing due to the PCV being stuck.

This new sound and the UOA have me worried. The engine seems to run well otherwise and hasn't lost any power.
I have sent all this to my engine builder as well, so far the only thing he said is that cylinder 1 may have suffered detonation.
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 02:42 PM   #10
Turpid Porpoise
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 476573
Join Date: Oct 2017
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Lovettsville, Virginia
Vehicle:
2008 Impreza WRX STi
Silver

Default

How did the spark plug in Cylinder 1 look?

I would not be surprised if the noise you mention was always there but the UOA has made you more sensitive to noises since the report stated that you may have a problem. If the motor is running and compression is good then I wouldn't worry to much.
Turpid Porpoise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 05:42 PM   #11
BlackFighter
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193940
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Philly
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STI Black
RalliSpec Shortblock

Default

Yes, you have to be careful using UOA to identify a failure. Unless you tested your oil before and after it is hard to tell where the metal is coming from, and like Waddlz said, different oils can give you different UOA results.

120 psi in all 4 cyl is good news. Do a leak down test just to be sure.
BlackFighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 06:55 PM   #12
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turpid Porpoise View Post
How did the spark plug in Cylinder 1 look?

I would not be surprised if the noise you mention was always there but the UOA has made you more sensitive to noises since the report stated that you may have a problem. If the motor is running and compression is good then I wouldn't worry to much.
Here's a picture of the cylinder 1 spark plug. When I did the compression test about 3 weeks ago the white body of this one was cracked. I may have done it while removing it, but I thought I was being careful. I replaced all 4 plugs and they all look the same to my uneducated eyes.
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 08:18 PM   #13
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFighter View Post
Yes, you have to be careful using UOA to identify a failure. Unless you tested your oil before and after it is hard to tell where the metal is coming from, and like Waddlz said, different oils can give you different UOA results.

120 psi in all 4 cyl is good news. Do a leak down test just to be sure.
Unfortunately I did not get a UOA when the engine was first built to be able to make a comparison. I will try to get a leak down test done and maybe another compression test for good measure.
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 02:39 PM   #14
Paul
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 56203
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: south nj
Vehicle:
00 RSTI Coupe
Twin Scroll 2.5XTR EJ207

Default

Hard to tell but the first pictures looked like detonation marks to me. If they don’t wipe off that’s what I would unfortunately lean towards

Is this a stock engine or rebuild?

Mileage?

Mods, tuner, fuel used?
Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 04:01 PM   #15
ripman
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 305707
Join Date: Jan 2012
Chapter/Region: International
Location: AUS
Vehicle:
1999 WRX
WRC Blue

Default

Check that plug very closely. If those are tiny specs of aluminium fused to that porcelain you have a detonation issue.
ripman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2019, 10:21 AM   #16
BlackFighter
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193940
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Philly
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STI Black
RalliSpec Shortblock

Default

any luck getting those particles out and inspecting them?
BlackFighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2019, 08:27 PM   #17
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
Hard to tell but the first pictures looked like detonation marks to me. If they donít wipe off thatís what I would unfortunately lean towards

Is this a stock engine or rebuild?

Mileage?

Mods, tuner, fuel used?
Rebuilt engine with +0.25mm forged pistons, 13,500 miles.
Mods: Turbo back exhaust, equal length headers, external waste gate, AEM intake, 1050x injectors, AEM 340lph pump, Radium FPR, TGV deletes, 3 port EBCS, dual catch cans.
Tuner: My dumbass with open source.
Fuel: 93

What do detonation marks look like normally?

Last edited by kopele; 06-26-2019 at 08:34 PM.
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2019, 08:30 PM   #18
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripman View Post
Check that plug very closely. If those are tiny specs of aluminium fused to that porcelain you have a detonation issue.
Can't really tell if it's aluminum specs or something else, I'll try to get a closer look.
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2019, 08:33 PM   #19
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFighter View Post
any luck getting those particles out and inspecting them?
I wasn't able to reach them, I'll try again when I find a better tool or method.
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2019, 09:59 AM   #20
Paul
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 56203
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: south nj
Vehicle:
00 RSTI Coupe
Twin Scroll 2.5XTR EJ207

Default Help with possible piston problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by kopele View Post



What do detonation marks look like normally?

They can look like little dings/pitting

Hereís a picture from my Audi that shows it well, it had issues with meth kit

Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 11:53 AM   #21
kopele
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 363007
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MO
Vehicle:
2008 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
They can look like little dings/pitting

Here’s a picture from my Audi that shows it well, it had issues with meth kit]
Oh yeah, I can see how those could be signs of detonation in my first picture.
Thanks for sharing your picture!
kopele is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.