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Old 08-08-2019, 01:26 PM   #26
4S-TURBO
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All this tree hugging in the USA while ignoring the pollution in India and nearby them.. pretty much useless from global scale.
Not enough tree huggers in India I suppose. They think like you?
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:51 PM   #27
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The EPA has performance standards for oil, coal and pellet or wood stoves. Speaking of the latter, those sold since the 1980's have been regulated by the EPA, regulations have gotten significantly tighter since then.
Current wood burning emission standards are 4.5g of smoke per hour of use, in 2020 that goes to 2.0g of smoke per hour of use (EPA Phase II). There are other particulate requirements as well, and although the EPA doesn't specifically require a catalytic converter on stoves sold, good luck meeting the requirements without one.

Note: California only allows EPA Phase II compliant wood stoves to be sold currently (2.0g/h), so they are stricter than the rest of the country (until 2020).

Heat also doesn't run "24/7" heating season in my area is late October/early November to early/late March (New England, specifically CT); light heating required in the beginning and end of the season, heavy heat usage is Mid-December Through February. You can look up heating & degree day information if you wish to educate yourself further, but we've been having heat waves since June and I sure haven't been trying to heat my house.

3 cords of seasoned hard wood roughly equals 2.5 tons of coal, or 510 gallons of No.2 fuel oil; that is about 21,000 kWh of electricity, which would be required to heat the average well insulated house in my area with electricity through a typical heating season; if it's an older house or has lighter insulation and/or cheap windows, then heaven help the owner.

My current electricity usage is just under 600kWh per month (slightly more in the summer for cooling, & Dec/Jan for Christmas lights), even if the heating was spread equally across five months that would be an increase of 4,200kWh per month for five months straight. If everyone in New England switched to electric instead of coal/oil/wood, the seasonal demand on the grid would be insane.

Now mix in the added demand of an EV (significantly less than a heating system) @15k miles per year is about 5,400kWh of demand per year or 450kWh per month, double that if it's a two car household.

Another important factor of course, is money. At the low end you are paying $0.20 per kWh in CT ($0.08 for electricity, $0.12 for distribution), what that means is the 4,800kWh per month for heat and regular usage in the winter months will cost the average person $960/month, and nearly $5,700 annually ($120 x 7 months + $960 x 5 months). That is ignoring an EV or two instead of gas burners.

Solar you say? A 44,000 watt system would be required to meet the average demand. That's about 138 panels (65"x39"), or 2,430 square feet of panel, or roughly a 50 foot by 50 foot square of panels (butted up edge to edge).
There is already talk of banning natural gas, Berkeley CA just did it for new buildings. Electric heat is going to be insanely expensive for anyone in a colder climate. When I lived in North Carolina I had a heat pump at a rental house and it had to turn on the "emergency" heat to actually keep the house at a comfortable temperature (when it's below 40F out), which is like heating your house with a toaster. I'm skeptical newer designs are that much more effective... how well can a heat pump work when it's 20 F outside without some kind of inefficient supplemental heating?

In Germany they have switched to expensive renewable energy sources for electricity (and Russian gas...), but everyone uses wood stoves to heat their house which of course contributes to particulate emission concentration, same as the dirty VW diesels!
https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/...rina_Rippl.pdf

There's no easy affordable answer. And I say that as someone who has a Tesla (charged at work) but runs everything else in the house on natural gas.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:29 PM   #28
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There is already talk of banning natural gas, Berkeley CA just did it for new buildings. Electric heat is going to be insanely expensive for anyone in a colder climate. When I lived in North Carolina I had a heat pump at a rental house and it had to turn on the "emergency" heat to actually keep the house at a comfortable temperature (when it's below 40F out), which is like heating your house with a toaster. I'm skeptical newer designs are that much more effective... how well can a heat pump work when it's 20 F outside without some kind of inefficient supplemental heating?

In Germany they have switched to expensive renewable energy sources for electricity (and Russian gas...), but everyone uses wood stoves to heat their house which of course contributes to particulate emission concentration, same as the dirty VW diesels!
https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/...rina_Rippl.pdf

There's no easy affordable answer. And I say that as someone who has a Tesla (charged at work) but runs everything else in the house on natural gas.
Passive house. You can heat a home with extremely little energy, essentially that toaster might be all you really need. And that point, it doesn't matter your fuel source, because anything can keep up. If we did it in Alaska, it'll work anywhere (https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...frigid-climate)

We need to start building better buildings. Period. There is no other option.

I'm a certified passive house consultant. Energy use in buildings is what I do. Code officials really need to get to tightening the ropes on our building codes to get them way more efficient than they currently are. Unfortunately that has deepening consequences as most major cities face a housing crisis, because it makes homes (a little) more expensive. The dollar calculations on payoff just don't crunch out a lot of the time, even if the carbon offset it gives is massive. Without subsidies, the market is not driving towards it. But when fossil fuel costs are artificially low because of government subsidies, it's not really an even playing field... Problem is, there's no money to be made in people paying less to live, so there's no incentive (dollars in the back pocket) for officials to make change. The people lining their pockets are the ones who stand to gain by us continuing to march down a path of burning everything that's in the ground until there's literally nothing left.
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Old 08-08-2019, 03:49 PM   #29
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The retrofit costs to get a house 100% electric (including EVs) are nuts. Putting insulation into old houses, replacing totally functioning stoves and close dryers with electric units, wiring up for 220 volt car chargers, etc.
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Old 08-09-2019, 12:04 PM   #30
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perception vs reality
Is it really about clean air or political agendas ?
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:04 PM   #31
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perception vs reality
Is it really about clean air or political agendas ?
https://youtu.be/LoAVidLpdVc

Lifecycle GHG assessment is not a new thing, and itís been part of the calculus of vehicle types for a long while. Very same dudeís data shows that thereís a net benefit under most assumptions at ~60-80,000 km of usage.

Make the underlying electricity cleaner (which it is doing constantly) or lower the CO2 cost for creating the battery and the curves cross even earlier.

http://www.f.waseda.jp/jin.kusaka/2019_grebe.pdf

I also donít see an accounting of the GHG cost of getting crude out of Saudi Arabia, shipping it across the world for refinement, then shipping the finished product to oneís local gas station. Thatís a very energy and water intensive process. Maybe I missed it.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:10 PM   #32
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My battery lawn mower does the same job my gas mower did but without the noise or the stink or the constant fussing with the oil and fuel or a can of gas just chilling out in the shed. Dat political agenda.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:18 PM   #33
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My battery lawn mower does the same job my gas mower did but without the noise or the stink or the constant fussing with the oil and fuel or a can of gas just chilling out in the shed. Dat political agenda.
Can't wait for my mower to bite the dust so I have a reason to buy an electric one. Unfortunately it's a honda, so it'll probably run forever... I haven't changed the oil for the 5 years I've owned it, and it was given to me, so who knows if it was ever maintained before that. I also keep it outside year round. Still starts on the first pull, every time.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:55 PM   #34
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I sold my gas yard equipment a few years ago when I moved across the country. Bought battery electric stuff to replace it. No regrets.

Gotta love the guy that's constantly posting the oil-industry-backed, skewed, alt-science claiming political agenda.
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Old 08-09-2019, 02:15 PM   #35
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Interesting conversation by passionate people on both sides. Los angles is a smog pit, but that honestly has more to do with the single worst geography and metro planning on earth. The entire city is surrounded by mountains and it keeps the crud in. Stricter laws were needed. However, those same laws are absolutely NOT needed in rural parts of country and in most cities where wind can move the particulate away. This is government thinking one solution is applicable to everybody and that is so rarely the case it may as well be an untruth.

Now, having said that, Is having clean air a good thing? I do not think anybody on the D or R side has ever said it is bad to have clean air, ever. Broad sweeping retrofitting is stupid and costly. Gradual phasing out of things is the smart way to go. Keeping the petroleum flowing fast and furious is also smart as we continue to increase green energy that can be scaled up and made more viable. As it matures and starts to produce useful amounts of reliable energy, the demand for petroleum will drop, and we can get greener while we keep the price of energy low. That is the key.

None of this will be cheap in the mean time. Expect the price of cars in CO to escalate accordingly like they have in the past. More equipment to pay for until OEM's get sick of adding so much equipment to the car its not worth building any more. The political drive to get people into EV's is very strong. I favor people always having a choice, and truthfully I think that will be the status quo for a very long time

Now, lets talk about the idiocy of not using natural gas. Burns clean as a whistle, is cheap and abundant beyond comprehension. We do not need to get any oil from Saudi to produce natural gas here in the states, that was a complete false comparison. We produce enough oil now to be completely independent of imported oil. Thank you (North Dakota and surrounding area).

Cheap energy is good for EVERYBODY. It keep the economy on high. It helps people on the lower end of the economic spectrum. WE need a combined solution to all of this and people need to think long term and stop making energy policies using emotions.

Im done.
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Old 08-09-2019, 02:16 PM   #36
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I sold my gas yard equipment a few years ago when I moved across the country. Bought battery electric stuff to replace it. No regrets.

Gotta love the guy that's constantly posting the oil-industry-backed, skewed, alt-science claiming political agenda.
Iíve got a fresh $20 bill that says heís pro oil, pro America yet supports buying oil from the Middle East. The irony of giving money to known terrorist nations but claiming Murica.


If there is nothing to be concerned with in regards to carbon pollution, perform this science experiment at home: park your car in the garage. Run a large flex hose from tailpipe Through the driver window. Then, get inside the car, start it and let me know how long you can stay in there before you start dying.
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Old 08-09-2019, 02:52 PM   #37
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First, donít understand why manufacturers canít just step up to the plate, voluntarily, and make all cars CARB complaint? Itís not like they donít pass the cost on to the consumers, rolling my eyes.

Second and more off topic. So when are we gonna start regulating ďdiesel tractor pullingĒ? Or that exempt because itís considered a sport?
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:03 PM   #38
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Iíve got a fresh $20 bill that says heís pro oil, pro America yet supports buying oil from the Middle East. The irony of giving money to known terrorist nations but claiming Murica.


If there is nothing to be concerned with in regards to carbon pollution, perform this science experiment at home: park your car in the garage. Run a large flex hose from tailpipe Through the driver window. Then, get inside the car, start it and let me know how long you can stay in there before you start dying.
flag on the play.. unrealistic comparison.

First nobody ever said it was not a problem. The never ending argument comes from how severe a problem it is and how fast we have to solve it.

If you have a wood burning fireplace in your house, close the flue and see how long you can stay alive in your living room. We should ban wood right.. Not an equivalence.

Any pollution is an issue. And we should do smart things to pollute less. But eventually we will consume the entire planet and make it mostly unlivable. That is inevitable. It may take 500 or more years, but it will happen. So lets try to make that number as big as we can in the mean time. But we are not dealing with any emergencies or crisis. We have time to do this intelligently.
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:04 PM   #39
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None of this will be cheap in the mean time. Expect the price of cars in CO to escalate accordingly like they have in the past. More equipment to pay for until OEM's get sick of adding so much equipment to the car its not worth building any more. The political drive to get people into EV's is very strong. I favor people always having a choice, and truthfully I think that will be the status quo for a very long time
No need for the doomsday argument here... EU has put stricter standards on cars than CARB does. The technology is already being developed, and some manufactures (Ford, Honda, VW, BMW) have already agreed to voluntarily meet CARB requirements regardless of federal standards. The cars will be built. People will buy them.

Until oil subsidies disappear, EV will never be on an even footing with ICE.
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:42 PM   #40
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No need for the doomsday argument here... EU has put stricter standards on cars than CARB does. The technology is already being developed, and some manufactures (Ford, Honda, VW, BMW) have already agreed to voluntarily meet CARB requirements regardless of federal standards. The cars will be built. People will buy them.

Until oil subsidies disappear, EV will never be on an even footing with ICE.
Just curious, what vehicles out there now that can't be sold in CARB states? I know there was a time when there were "California" cars that usually meant detuned engines.
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:13 PM   #41
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Perhaps it's already happened, but I'm waiting for state legislation banning EV's because they stress the grid and don't pay for roads.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:04 PM   #42
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Perhaps it's already happened, but I'm waiting for state legislation banning EV's because they stress the grid and don't pay for roads.


See Georgia going from a $5k EV tax credit to a $200 annual fee for them.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:09 PM   #43
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living in California I can say going CARB is good for the long run, but also I agree there are area's in the regulation that should be fixed/updated/removed.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:11 PM   #44
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Re natural gas:

- methane escape all along the chain is very problematic climate-wise
- CNG tanks are very bulky and heavy, arguably more difficult to integrate than battery packs
- bifuel gasoline/CNG vehicles are compromised when running on CNG, to the order of something like 20% lower power and miles per gallon equivalent

Finally, dedicated CNG vehicles are a non-starter. See market failure of the Honda Civic GX, later known as Civic Natural Gas. This is most likely because no one wants to pay more for a still fossil-fueled vehicle that has very limited refueling infrastructure and no easy way to refuel at home. (There were some attempts at home vehicle refueling devices but they were similarly failures, expensive @~$4-6k + electricity cost to compress low pressure NG that comes to homes, and only mountable on the exterior of oneís garage due to fire codes, iirc.)

So if you run a fleet in Oklahoma and can fuel up for effectively free from your own wells, sure, convert your 3/4 ton work trucks to that. (Same goes for fleet operators of garbage trucks and the like.) But for Joe Sixpack? No way.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:48 PM   #45
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Just curious, what vehicles out there now that can't be sold in CARB states? I know there was a time when there were "California" cars that usually meant detuned engines.
I don't think there are any... I think some of them might get a few added components though. I recall back when I had my motorcycle that there were a few added nuances with the CARB versions that I didn't have to deal with when I was messing with the carburetor.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:58 PM   #46
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I know California has their own engine version for an 09 forester.

I just replaced the block in one and there is a Federal Emissions version EJ253, California version and Canada version
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:50 AM   #47
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See Georgia going from a $5k EV tax credit to a $200 annual fee for them.
Washington is set to do the same.. except the most they ever offered for incentives was zero state sales tax on the purchase of an EV. That offer expired last year.
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Old 08-14-2019, 02:20 AM   #48
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I know California has their own engine version for an 09 forester.

I just replaced the block in one and there is a Federal Emissions version EJ253, California version and Canada version
There were some funky versions in the mid-2000's with rather varying engine and catalytic converter types in Subaru's N/A motors.

They wised up though now and just make "world motors" that are speced for pretty much any market as most manufacturers have. But Europe just introduced those new exhaust filters which are causing a headache again.
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