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Old 01-08-2020, 09:55 PM   #8376
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Nice illustration. I did go back about 30 pages and found some driving impressions of 18x9.5 +45. They seemed to say it had minimal affect on steering feel and no tram lining effects.
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Old 01-09-2020, 08:03 AM   #8377
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Originally Posted by STIposer View Post
Maybe this has been covered in previous posts. I'm amazed at how many redundant posts there are regarding will this fit or will that fit? Will this rub or will that rub? What tire size do you recommend with this size wheel?
At well over 8000 posts, looking for a specific answer is your basic needle in a haystack problem, and people aren't going to put any more than a quick and dirty search effort into hoping they can find their situation. These days, I'm not sure how may people do even that much.


Quote:
But, what are the general driving impressions when you guys have gone with a wider wheel and tire combo? How has your car changed by going to something like a 18x9.5 et 38 with 255/35 or 265/35 tires? It seems most people are concerned with aesthetics and not actually posting about driving impressions with different set ups. Geometry changes greatly with each wheel and tire setup and corresponding alignment specs. Sure, wider wheels and lower offsets fill the fender well for nicer aesthetics.
I agree with dpetro here, in that most people probably don't notice much difference. Whether that's because they really aren't driving hard enough for the effects to be noticeable by them. don't know what to pay attention to, or just point the car down the road without ever noticing anything at all about what's happening down at the contact patches are separate questions.

Most people aren't engineers either, which even if you're not involved in automotive engineering at least means there's a better chance that you might wonder what else is going on besides the appearance change.


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Is there anyone that has considered how you have changed the handling dynamics of a car that has been engineered by STI to handle great from the factory?
You mean other than autocrossers and track rats? Probably not very many.

It's not that there's zero room left for improvement in STi and WRX grip levels and handling qualities. But as you've discovered, there can be significant downsides if you're not careful with your changes. The average appearance-centered enthusiast is ill-equipped to foresee such downsides, and ends up either living with his choice(s) or guessing again.


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Old 01-09-2020, 08:22 PM   #8378
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
At well over 8000 posts, looking for a specific answer is your basic needle in a haystack problem, and people aren't going to put any more than a quick and dirty search effort into hoping they can find their situation. These days, I'm not sure how may people do even that much.



I agree with dpetro here, in that most people probably don't notice much difference. Whether that's because they really aren't driving hard enough for the effects to be noticeable by them. don't know what to pay attention to, or just point the car down the road without ever noticing anything at all about what's happening down at the contact patches are separate questions.

Most people aren't engineers either, which even if you're not involved in automotive engineering at least means there's a better chance that you might wonder what else is going on besides the appearance change.



You mean other than autocrossers and track rats? Probably not very many.

It's not that there's zero room left for improvement in STi and WRX grip levels and handling qualities. But as you've discovered, there can be significant downsides if you're not careful with your changes. The average appearance-centered enthusiast is ill-equipped to foresee such downsides, and ends up either living with his choice(s) or guessing again.


Norm
Yep, hit it right on the bullseye with all these points as I am finding. I want to make sure that the modifications I am doing to the car are actual positive modifications that aren't detrimental to handling. I do like aesthetics as the next guy, but I also don't want to be left with the snake oil mantra that wider is better.
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Old 01-10-2020, 10:05 AM   #8379
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Things like "wider", "more spring/more bar/damping", and "more camber" should probably be tied to how hard the car is actually going to be driven. Actual driving, not just where the car owner's wishful thinking puts it. Most people normally drive through the corners at 0.3g or less and never intentionally harder than about 0.5g. Hardly anybody ever exceeds 0.7g. Those numbers are based on some actual observations, BTW.

Tweaking any of those things is kind of like moving along an upside-down "U", where small deviations away from the peak don't change things as much as greater deviations. And the "U" for each tweak has a different shape. There is no guarantee that the OE tuning hits all of the peak points, but with the possible exception of front camber they probably aren't too far off.

Cars do tend to come set up for slightly/somewhat more understeer than a corner-carving addict would ever prefer even within the grip limits of the OE tires. And the progression from linear tire behavior through transitional to frictional/sliding behavior for the OE setup may well be 'softer' . . . more warning that starts earlier about the tires not feeling quite as "stuck-down" as they do when driving straight ahead on level pavement. IOW, protection for the less-skilled drivers among us.

That said, an inch of wheel width increase or 20mm more tire width should still be compatible with the rest of the car's suspension tuning, though it probably won't be optimally so.


The more you tweak any one thing, the greater the need to revisit and tweak other aspects. Which should really come back to how hard your driving really is. From time to time I've looked at car weight divided by nominal tire width and power/torque divided by nominal tire width as possibly useful metrics, though I'm beginning to think you'd need to take that a step further and correct those numbers to suit just how hard you're really driving on an overall basis. I just haven't tried very hard to establish what any such corrections might look like.

FWIW, I prefer wheel widths that are out toward (or at) the max-recommended width for the tire size being fitted, and never narrower than "measuring width". But I know my driving in the corners tends to be somewhat more "enthusiastic" than most peoples'.


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Last edited by Norm Peterson; 01-10-2020 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 10:06 AM   #8380
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What I don't like about the 9.5" wheels is that everyone seems to run 265/35 tires. This results in an undersized tire from stock and also less sidewall/comfort versus the stock 245/40.
I decided to go 18x9 with stock tire size for my setup.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:03 PM   #8381
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Than why not run a 255/35?
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Old 01-10-2020, 09:43 PM   #8382
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Than why not run a 255/35?
I don't follow the question...255/35 is even smaller then both the other sizes I mentioned above.
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Old 01-11-2020, 03:16 AM   #8383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post



That said, an inch of wheel width increase or 20mm more tire width should still be compatible with the rest of the car's suspension tuning, though it probably won't be optimally so.



Norm
This is the question at hand that needs further research for me. As much as I'd like to fill the fender well and get flush fitment for the aesthetic enthusiast in me, I would want to make the other necessary changes to the suspension to be able to handle the added wheel/tire width. But, then it goes back to the question of - do I even drive the car hard enough?

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Old 01-11-2020, 09:06 AM   #8384
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Originally Posted by dpetro1 View Post
What I don't like about the 9.5" wheels is that everyone seems to run 265/35 tires. This results in an undersized tire from stock and also less sidewall/comfort versus the stock 245/40.
265/35-18 is not undersized in terms of load capacity. Both it and the 245/40-18 carry the same Load Index designation (97XL), meaning identical load rating at any given inflation pressure.


Quote:
I decided to go 18x9 with stock tire size for my setup.
I suspect that in terms of ride comfort, you just moved to a point midway between 245/40-18 on 8.5" and 265/35-18 on 9.5". Differences among tire types and mfrs for the same size tire amount to more.

Here's what the difference looks like, plotted to the same offset to better show the differences in sidewall height and shape. Note that your 245 has been stretched out slightly, to about 250.




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Old 01-11-2020, 09:18 AM   #8385
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Damn Norm, getting super techincal, nice! Can you put the 265/35 on a 18x9.5 +38, since that seems to be the most common aftermarket wheel size?

My main point above was tha 265/35 (or 255) is a physically shorter tire with less sidewall.

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Old 01-11-2020, 09:25 AM   #8386
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Originally Posted by STIposer View Post
This is the question at hand that needs further research for me. As much as I'd like to fill the fender well and get flush fitment for the aesthetic enthusiast in me, I would want to make the other necessary changes to the suspension to be able to handle the added wheel/tire width. But, then it goes back to the question of - do I even drive the car hard enough?
The first incremental width increase(s) are least in actual need of retuning other aspects. You can still expect some performance benefits (assuming tire capabilities to be constant, which might not be the case), just that what you get won't be as much as you could have gotten. That's where the slope starts getting a bit slippery - is "some amount better" good enough for you or are you going to let yourself get caught up in "I want as much more as I can get"? Can you draw your line between the two, perhaps from other considerations or observations?

On a 1 to 10 scale, where

1 = I'm more apt to be the slowest guy through the corners and traffic sometimes starts to stack up behind me on a highway entrance ramp

10 = Every corner and ramp presents a direct challenge to me and I would never corner at less than half a g if I didn't have to because of other traffic or weather/other road conditions.


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Old 01-11-2020, 09:37 AM   #8387
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Originally Posted by dpetro1 View Post
Damn Norm, getting super techincal, nice! Can you put the 265/35 on a 18x9.5 +38, since that seems to be the most common aftermarket wheel size?
No problem.



+38 does "waste" about 3/8" of useful room on the inside, though.


Quote:
I maon point above was tha 265/35 (or 255) is a physically shorter tire with less sidewall.
I get that. But 0.2" shorter sidewalls really doesn't make for enough difference in sheetmetal clearance or ride height to be clearly visible, especially as the whole business is being moved outward in the wheelwell. On the matter of ride comfort, I don't think there'd be very many more bumps and rough patches that you'd be trying to dodge with the 265/35's that you're not already trying to avoid with the 245/40's.


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Old 01-11-2020, 02:45 PM   #8388
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Will a 235/45/18 tire fit on 18x9.5 +38 wheel without looking ridiculous? Iím on air so if it looks stretched a bit thatís fine. I just donít want it to be an eyesore.
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:43 PM   #8389
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Will a 235/45/18 tire fit on 18x9.5 +38 wheel without looking ridiculous? Iím on air so if it looks stretched a bit thatís fine. I just donít want it to be an eyesore.
Looks like most tire manufacturers only approve a 9" wheel for that size. I'm sure you could stretch it on there but I personally wouldn't
Also 235/45/18 is taller than stock so that may work against you of your trying to get low on air.
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Old 01-12-2020, 08:41 AM   #8390
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Will a 235/45/18 tire fit on 18x9.5 +38 wheel without looking ridiculous? I’m on air so if it looks stretched a bit that’s fine. I just don’t want it to be an eyesore.
It's not recommended - as dpetro has already noted, published tire industry guidelines have set 9" as the upper recommended width for that size.

There is a little "fuzziness" in those recommended width ranges - it's not that you suddenly transition from "perfectly fine" to "accident looking for a place to happen" as soon as you step past the published limits. But that probably comes with slight reductions in things like durability and margin of safety/fatigue life. Things that are part and parcel of different compromises in any engineered product.

Ignoring the crazy amounts of tire stretch seen on some cars strictly for shock effect, sometimes you can go half an inch wider than max-recommended without issue. I'd personally limit doing that to 60 profile and taller tires where the "measuring width" is a smaller percentage of section width (70% of section width) than is the case for tires with profiles of about 50 or less (85%, IIRC). I have the exact numbers someplace, but those are close enough for purposes here.


Here's roughly what it'd look like. There would be a little bit of flange sticking out past the tire, but only a little. Note that the plot is starting to get a little distorted - not my intention but convenient in that the curve fits start looking a bit strange when the amount of 'stretch' goes past about max-recommended width.



Incidentally, I prefer to define 'stretch' and 'squeeze' or 'pinch' relative to the measuring width rather than on subjective appearance. It's really the only way to define those descriptions without involving personal preferences that do vary from one person to the next.


Norm

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Old 01-12-2020, 02:59 PM   #8391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
The first incremental width increase(s) are least in actual need of retuning other aspects. You can still expect some performance benefits (assuming tire capabilities to be constant, which might not be the case), just that what you get won't be as much as you could have gotten. That's where the slope starts getting a bit slippery - is "some amount better" good enough for you or are you going to let yourself get caught up in "I want as much more as I can get"? Can you draw your line between the two, perhaps from other considerations or observations?

On a 1 to 10 scale, where

1 = I'm more apt to be the slowest guy through the corners and traffic sometimes starts to stack up behind me on a highway entrance ramp

10 = Every corner and ramp presents a direct challenge to me and I would never corner at less than half a g if I didn't have to because of other traffic or weather/other road conditions.


Norm
I would say I am approx a 5-6 using your subjective scale. I am definitely about 50% faster than most would comfortably take for a corner or ramp. I'm basing that off the pulling away rate of myself over similarly capable cars on a particular corner/ramp). I also do not attempt to fully challenge myself on public highways for the safety of others and myself (I'll leave that to my opportunity for a track day).

I am thinking of 18x9 +45 or similar sized wheels. This would move the wheel out approx 3.6mm from the strut and the outer edge of the wheel would poke out approx 16.4mm more. I would have to choose wisely here to be able to clear the STI Brembos. The Weddsport TC105X comes in 18x9 +45, weighs 16.8 lbs and I believe should clear the Brembos.

Edit: Initially thought I could run a 275/35/18 tire. It doesn't seem to fit well even though it matches the OEM 245/40/18 diameter. I will search for 265/35/18

Last edited by STIposer; 01-13-2020 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:44 PM   #8392
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Delete, found my answer.

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Old 01-13-2020, 01:29 AM   #8393
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Damnit Norm Peterson you have be a engineer or something? He asked such a simply question and got an essay back lol.
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:06 AM   #8394
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Damnit Norm Peterson you have be a engineer or something? He asked such a simply question and got an essay back lol.
Used to be (72 and retired these days), but I guess I've always had an engineering-oriented outlook on most things. I started out having to do all of my own learning as far as wider aftermarket wheels and better tires were concerned, because resources like the internet and social media did not exist.

I've also found that with respect to tire & wheel and handling topics, technically-oriented answers take more explanation than answers concerned with aesthetics and "knowledge" that is commonly accepted without question. Maybe I see things a little differently to begin with, or put numbers on more things to see if they really do make sense, in which case you're entitled to a peek into the thought process behind the answer.


Norm

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Old 01-13-2020, 03:16 PM   #8395
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Here are some test fit shots of a Motegi Traklite 3, on an otherwise stock car. They are 18x9.5 et45. Going to be fitting a set of 265/35zr18 tires on them for autox. Tires will be mounted next week.
I did a better test going full lock left and right but realized that until I've got the tires fit it's pretty much useless info.






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Old 01-13-2020, 09:18 PM   #8396
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Originally Posted by xpystchrisx View Post
Here are some test fit shots of a Motegi Traklite 3, on an otherwise stock car. They are 18x9.5 et45. Going to be fitting a set of 265/35zr18 tires on them for autox. Tires will be mounted next week.
I did a better test going full lock left and right but realized that until I've got the tires fit it's pretty much useless info.





Nice wheel choice! What tires do you plan on using? Please chime back in with your impressions of the wheel and tire setup. Also, alignment specs would be great as well. Do you daily drive the car as well? I would like to hear your thoughts on its street manners if you end up going with a street tire.
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Old 01-13-2020, 09:41 PM   #8397
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Nice wheel choice! What tires do you plan on using? Please chime back in with your impressions of the wheel and tire setup. Also, alignment specs would be great as well. Do you daily drive the car as well? I would like to hear your thoughts on its street manners if you end up going with a street tire.
Thanks much. I have a set of Falken RT615k+, in 265/35, sitting in the garage waiting for the ceramic coating on the wheels to finish curing. As far as the wheels, they are well made and the finish is as good as any I have owned. I've had a set of Konig Ultraforms, Enkei RPF-1s and some others. The Motegi wheels are as well built as any of them and are easily the cheapest.
As far as an alignment, whatever I can get out of the stock suspension with the Com-C tophats that I have installed. I'm hoping to get -1.5 camber and zero toe front, -1.5 camber rear and a little toe in... but we'll see.
I work from home and this car shares daily driver duties with my truck. That said, I won't be daily driving these wheels/tires. I don't want to heat cycle these tires before the tread is gone. I am keeping the stock wheels and tires as I have roughly 1/3rd tread after 40ish autocross runs. However when these tires are mounted up this weekend I will absolutely be mounting these up and getting some impressions and photos.
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:05 PM   #8398
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Hey everyone, long time lurker posting for the first time. I went through a good chunk of this thread trying to find someone else with the same issue as me but can't seem to find anyone with my problem. I'm running a very common wheel/tire setup, 18x9.5 +38 offset with 245/40/18 tires. Before I bought the wheels I did a ton of research on if this setup would work without rubbing and without any modification to the fenders, and everyone seemed to say it was 100% fine on stock suspension *which I am on*. However, after installing this setup on my 2016 WRX, with passengers in the back seats I am rubbing very frequently on dips (e.g. on the highway at speed), and on speed humps if I don't go slow enough. With no passengers in the back seats there is literally 0 rubbing, its only when I add some weight back there. Does anyone have any insights as to why my setup in particular is rubbing when a ton of others seem to be running this setup with no issues whatsoever? If it helps my wheels are Work Emotion D9R's, and they are wrapped in Michelin Pilot Sport 4.
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:50 AM   #8399
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Having passengers in the back seat is like being lowered. If your suspension is lowered at all with lowering springs, rear seat passenger loading will drop the rear of the car even further.

Here's roughly what you've done, shown in comparison to stock.




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Old 01-29-2020, 11:34 PM   #8400
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Thanks for the reply Norm. I understand that having weight in the back seats is indeed lowering the car. The part that I don't understand is why a ton of other people are running the same setup with passengers in the back as well and getting no rubbing. In some cases I've even read people who are lowered on springs/coils with the same wheel/tire setup, with people in the back seat and still getting no rubbing whilst I'm on stock suspension and rubbing. I'm really confused.
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