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Old 01-31-2002, 11:24 PM   #1
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Old 01-31-2002, 11:53 PM   #2
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You begin your post with "Anyone with a coolant temp gauge?" and then ask "What would be a good place for a coolant temperature probe?"

The short ansoer is that EVERY WRX OWNER has an engine coolant temperature gauge and a good place to probe is where the stock sensor is located.

Care to be more precise?
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Old 02-01-2002, 12:01 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
You begin your post with "Anyone with a coolant temp gauge?" and then ask "What would be a good place for a coolant temperature probe?"

The short ansoer is that EVERY WRX OWNER has an engine coolant temperature gauge and a good place to probe is where the stock sensor is located.

Care to be more precise?
The guage that came in our cars is no more than an overglorified dummy light. It has three settings, cold, normal, and overheated. Same thing in my RX-7. I could be wrong, but I swear that I've never seen that "guage" waiver from that one position in the center after the engine warmed up.

Oddly enough my Metro has a true, useful water temp guage. I can watch it raise and raise and then drop when cool water is introduced to the engine. Kinda retarded that a Metro has this and a WRX or an RX-7 doesn't.
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Old 02-01-2002, 12:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mykl


The guage that came in our cars is no more than an overglorified dummy light. It has three settings, cold, normal, and overheated. Same thing in my RX-7. I could be wrong, but I swear that I've never seen that "guage" waiver from that one position in the center after the engine warmed up.

Oddly enough my Metro has a true, useful water temp guage. I can watch it raise and raise and then drop when cool water is introduced to the engine. Kinda retarded that a Metro has this and a WRX or an RX-7 doesn't.

The WRX has a very accurate water temp gauge. The ECU uses this sensor and anyone can read the exact temp with an OBD scan tool. The problem is the gauge on the dash is designed to not be acurate for a reason. On my car center on the gauge is between 165 and 220 some degree's. You will likely never see the gauge go over the half way mark unless you are road racing or have a problem. My WRX sits around 200F according to the ECU. I too urn for a true reading gauge.

CT
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Old 02-01-2002, 12:26 AM   #5
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It's true that the stock gauge operates as you describe. However, the sensor it uses is good enough for the ECU, as well. And the ECU is making critical decisions based upon that input. The WRX's ECT sensor is good.
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Old 02-01-2002, 12:27 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie



The WRX has a very accurate water temp gauge. The ECU uses this sensor and anyone can read the exact temp with an OBD scan tool. The problem is the gauge on the dash is designed to not be acurate for a reason. On my car center on the gauge is between 165 and 220 some degree's. You will likely never see the gauge go over the half way mark unless you are road racing or have a problem. My WRX sits around 200F according to the ECU. I too urn for a true reading gauge.

CT
Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Do you have any idea what the reason as to why the guage in the dash is inaccurate?
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Old 02-01-2002, 12:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
It's true that the stock gauge operates as you describe. However, the sensor it uses is good enough for the ECU, as well. And the ECU is making critical decisions based upon that input. The WRX's ECT sensor is good.
I'm sorry, I think I read your post the wrong wayt.

You are correct and I should have just agreed with you in the first place.
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Old 02-01-2002, 01:47 AM   #8
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Old 02-01-2002, 10:37 AM   #9
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Tap into the coolent feed to your turbo... that's what I did.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 02-01-2002, 11:44 AM   #10
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Old 02-02-2002, 05:31 PM   #11
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Old 02-03-2002, 03:55 PM   #12
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I usually prefer to install in the inlet hose to the radiator. There are two reason for this. First, when the thermostat opens you will be able to see what temperature it opens at because the needle will settle at that initial temp. If you are able to detect deterioration of sorts, like the t'stat opening earlier or later, then you can react before problems arise.

Second, water temp coming out of the motor is what you want to know. Fluctuations in temp over short periods might indicate problems in flow somewhere.

I did not have an aftermarket guage installed when I participated in a gruelling 6 hour event last summer. The stock guage doesn;t move from its "normal" position for almost 20~30 degrees or so (ie. temp could be anywhere from 180 to 220) so the needle doesn't move from "normal". I was between 2nd and 3rd most of the time and rpms were about 4500~6500 and sometimes 7000 consistently.

Unfotrunately, when I saw the needle come right up to the high mark there was no way to tell what the actual temp was other than the guage saying high.

Now there is a little oil seeping at the head gasket of the left head and that could have been from the overtemp condition. If I had a "normal" gauge, I might have been able to note trends before hand and I would not have pushed so damn hard all that day.

After watching the rally coverage and seeing the subaru engine fail because of partial blockage of radiator air inlet by ice, I speculated that the engine may have a lower threshold for temperature related problems than some other engines I've seen before. And that car has the sturdier engine whereas ours are the open deck blocks.

Ted
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Old 02-03-2002, 04:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mykl


Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Do you have any idea what the reason as to why the guage in the dash is inaccurate?
Because the average person gets nervous and thinks something is wrong if they see the temperature guage moving up and down
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Old 02-03-2002, 09:39 PM   #14
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Default my sensor install

i installed my sensor in the upper rad hose.
i think that was your question.
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Old 02-03-2002, 09:53 PM   #15
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Old 02-03-2002, 10:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by BOP
thng and cantex: so what do you see during warmup, with the thermostat closed? Nothing? And what happens if the thermostat gets stuck in closed position? Your engine will overheat yet the gauge will not show anything abnormal. I don't know, placing the probe before the thermostat seems like a better idea... Where's the stock probe anyway?
Now then, let's see, you drive 3 blocks and notice your water temp hasn't moved. You a) stop and verify by checking your upper rad hose if it is warm, cold, or too hot. b) you compare to the stock guage since and see if it is doing the same thing, or c) drive flat out and see if it goes away.

What's involved in putting it where the t'stat is? Adapter? What about space?

We had some guy put his sender right behind the t-stat on his engine (toyota of some sort). That wasn't a bad idea. The bad part was he didn't bother to see that it was also beside the #1 exhaust port. Guess what kind of temps we saw during a dyno run..under power it pegs on the high side, on decel it pegs on the low side, on a long idle it sits close to normal, and on a cruise it indicated slightly high.

In my years of testing, the ideal points to consider in measuring anything going in and out of a motor was the in and out temps: engine water in vs engine water out; engine oil in vs engine oil out, and so on.

We also had an engine where the head alone had a couple of dozen thermocouples in it in various locations. Just because you have a t'stat that says 180 doesn't mean that the head, or the motor for that matter, is 180 all over? It varied. High alongside the exhaust ports and between cylinders (high 200~low 300) and adjacent to combustion chambers. And 180 right behind the t'stat; 180 after it.

But really, I'll still put it in the hose out of the motor. You can put it where you feel comfortable...seen a gastroenterologist lately?

One ideal outlet is to have a manifold that collects water out of the hot side of the head along side or between the exhaust ports and joint to a common hose that goes to the rad.

Better still is to have the cool water enter the head evenly and circulate down through the block and out.

The traditional way of in the block up, around the head from the rear and out the front is one of the most inefficient ways to do it.

Ted
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Old 02-04-2002, 08:41 AM   #17
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Old 02-05-2002, 04:00 AM   #18
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Interesting info. I thought that normally (50/50 mix, 15 psi) coolant would boil af ~ 260-270F. Are you saying that there are places where the coolant actually reaches 300F+ during normal engine operation?
Yes. We discovered that from frequent headgasket failures between 2 & 3 on the 4ag atlantic motors. Coolant remained stagnant right in the area where the cylinders joined. After we instrumented the head we discovered that at max power (near 9500rpm) the coolant would become super heated and boil but once the coolant left that area, it would return to "normal". That did nothing for that area specifically. The solution was to force coolant to circulate in and out of that area faster.

Second, 50/50 is for street use. For hard use, we used way less and just for water pump lubrication. For street here in CA, I try to use less than 50/50 but enough to prevent aluminum corrosion...and yes, aluminum does corrode...all the white stuff pack on some of the coolant passage surfaces,...that's corrosion by-product.

Is that doubt in your words? Some engineers get into trouble by convincing themselves that because they haven't seen it, it never happens. Look at the TRD record in CART for so many years..I left there for that reason.

Quote:
If upper radiator hose is the location suggested by your gastroenterologist, I would suggest that you consult a proctologist for a second opinion
He didn't suggest that, I did. Besides, the proctologist would say to put it in the out hole of the radiator. That's good for engine water in....you still need the gastroenterologist to put the sensor in the radiator in line for engine water out. Then you have measurement for both engine and radiator performance.

Do what you feel is more comfortable. Put that sensor where you think it does the most good. If you think I'm full of it, by all means, go ahead. Take it with a grain of salt if you must. Hell, carry a pound of it.

My posting was intended as harmless, your response took it one step higher. How am I supposed to interpret your other than harmless retort anyway? Harmless?

Ted

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Old 02-05-2002, 11:39 AM   #19
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Old 02-05-2002, 10:17 PM   #20
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Yeah, but this is an anomaly. I was talking about "normal engine operation", not about pushing highly tuned engines to their limits at almost 10K rpm. That explains the doubt in my words. What does it have to do with sensor placement anyway? There's no way to detect such a condition without having a dozen of sensors in different places of cooling system.
Different conditions yes, but the behavior is similar, If it boils at 9500 then it's hotter than expected at any other engne speed. The only thing different is crank speed.

On a turbo engine, the stresses are magnified. Differentials in temps, pressures, etc are accentuated.

The temp of the engine coolant outlet represents, at best, an acceptable out put that is repeatable.

Quote:
I totally agree that the best place for a temp probe would be one of the hoses where the coolant leaves the block, however I would like to have it upsteam of the thermostat if possible. Now, RiftsWRX suggested coolant feed to the turbo. I understand that this feed comes from the head of cylinder 3, can anyone confirm or deny it? What about other possible locations, maybe that feed to the throttle body? Any other ideas?
The problem I have with that is that #3 now has some controlling influence on the water temp of that line. In order for you to find that sweet spot is, as you said, put in a half dozen sensors and start measuring. The upper hose accounts for all liquid coming from the motor. Any other line, if comes out of the block, is influenced by the events occuring in that side of the block unless it comes out where the upper hose comes out.

Ted
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Old 02-06-2002, 01:11 PM   #21
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Default Temp probe question:

IF the best location happens to be the upper hose coming out of the engine block, how do you go about securing a probe to a hose? I have never seen a water temp probe. I assume its a threaded metal plug.

If my assumption is correct, how is a threaded metal thing secured to a hole in a rubber hose that transports liquid under pressure?
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Old 02-06-2002, 06:23 PM   #22
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You can purchase a Tee adapter that has hose fittings on both legs and the right pipe tap on the Tee. I know there are some manufacturers that already make these adapters (omori comes to mind) but I a, told they use steel.

Check Home depot since they have a wide assortment of adapters or you can have one made to your own design.

I made mine to fit into the upper hose from aluminum and dimensioned to fit just before the hose bends into the top rad tank. It appeared that I could still make the adapter smaller but I also thought that I I needed to tap into the hose later on, I would have 2 other faces to tap into for whatever reason arises.

Ted
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Old 08-21-2002, 02:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by thng
You can purchase a Tee adapter that has hose fittings on both legs and the right pipe tap on the Tee. I know there are some manufacturers that already make these adapters (omori comes to mind) but I a, told they use steel.

Check Home depot since they have a wide assortment of adapters or you can have one made to your own design.

I made mine to fit into the upper hose from aluminum and dimensioned to fit just before the hose bends into the top rad tank. It appeared that I could still make the adapter smaller but I also thought that I I needed to tap into the hose later on, I would have 2 other faces to tap into for whatever reason arises.

Ted
Pictures would be nice if you have some. I think I'm going to go with the water temp guage rather then the oil temp or pressure guage.
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