Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Motorsports

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-10-2013, 01:45 PM   #1
MeltedOutback
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 215653
Join Date: Jun 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Pontiac, MI
Vehicle:
2004 vf34 FXT 5MT
aspen white

Default recommend me some track pads!

the track-day and autoX season is fast approaching and I'm finally assembling all of my mods for the season.

'04 FXT (284whp / 302ft/lbs on Force Engineering's Mustang dyno)
02-03 WRX sedan take-off suspension (these will hopefully be replaced with adjustable struts and different spring)
225/45-17 Hoosier R6's (track and large autox) and 235/45-17 Z1 star specs (wet and/or small autox, DD)
STi RSB, probably upgrade to ~27mm adjustable sways front and rear
legacy GT calipers/rotors and braided stainless lines, ATE fluid, etc.
probably throw on MC brace...

Last season I was on stock rotors (fresh) rotors, stock calipers, and Hawk HP+ pads all around. It sucked. The HP+'s were fine for autoX, but I would have significant brake fade after only a couple laps, and my rotors had stress cracks after my first track day :-/ Front pads were ~50% after ~15k, ~5 track days, ~8 autoX

So I decided to get some much larger brakes (didn't have money for Brembo's) but now I'm wondering what pads would be good for my set-up. My main focus is fade resistance and long(er) life at the track, I don't have a problem switching to a cheap pad for DD and autoX (the car will primarily be for track use during the summer, and winter beater with cheap pads for the winter)

I'm thinking Carbotech XP10 front and rear, but if XP8, etc. would be enough fade resistant and/or better life I would like to go that route

any other suggestions?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
MeltedOutback is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 04-10-2013, 01:59 PM   #2
rjrutzky
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30367
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: nashville, tn
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
NASA SE PTB Champ

Default

if you don't want to change pads for the street, for sure go with xp10. if not, I like pfc 01 on that skinny tire. prepare for many opinions
rjrutzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 02:41 PM   #3
RoidRage
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 272471
Join Date: Feb 2011
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: North Dallas
Vehicle:
2010 WRX FlareObody
Red

Default

Hawk DTC 60s have been working pretty well for me. Ferodo is also good stuff from what I gather.

The guys at KNS brakes can help you pick a good set. Ive had good experiences with them and they're very competitive price wise.
RoidRage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 03:22 PM   #4
subydude
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 80649
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Columbia, SC
Vehicle:
2000 2.5 Auto-X RSTi
Sparkly

Default

If you're willing to swap at the track days, then XP12's front and XP10's rear. Carbotech rates the compound by what the weight of the car is they're trying to stop. XP8's are for 2,400 lbs and below, XP10's are 2,400 to 2,800, XP12's are 2,800 to 3,200 (this is all from memory talking to Carbotech about a lemons car).

The HP+'s are great for autox and I've used them for years. I'd also be willing to try the Carbotech AX6's as a lot of my friends run them and are happy.

But stopping a big Forester at the tail end of a 20 or 30 minute session needs some "real" track pads and a good DOT4 fluid.
subydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 03:35 PM   #5
MeltedOutback
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 215653
Join Date: Jun 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Pontiac, MI
Vehicle:
2004 vf34 FXT 5MT
aspen white

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoidRage View Post
Hawk DTC 60s have been working pretty well for me. Ferodo is also good stuff from what I gather.

The guys at KNS brakes can help you pick a good set. Ive had good experiences with them and they're very competitive price wise.
I was planning on ordering from KNS, I'll shoot them an email to see what they recommend as well.

I liked the HP+'s for the street and autoX, but they aren't cutting it for the track (I'm guessing this is mostly because of tiny stock rotors)

I had HP+ all around with braided lines on my turbo del Sol and I wouldn't get fade until ~20min into a session, and that was only on DOT3 fluid...

Keep the suggestions coming guys!

As for tires; considering that the forester wants to do a barrel roll in the corners, the star specs (new last summer) held up very well, but I definitely tore them up being to the floor on the brakes into corners, and slipping and sliding on the way out.

I run intermediate run groups at Waterford hills and Gingerman and regularly get around z06's, Elise's, GT500's, etc
MeltedOutback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 11:12 PM   #6
[email protected]
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 280104
Join Date: Apr 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Baltimore-Maryland
Vehicle:
2019 Subaru STi
Black

Default

I run the DTC60's all around, DBA 4000 with Motul 660 and brake cooling ducks stock brembo 2011 sti calibers
Theo@theoharris.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 01:28 AM   #7
growling_boxer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 165744
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Eastern PA
Vehicle:
2018 Crosstrek
2005/7 STi

Default

KNS is definitely worth contacting. As for the DTC-60 recommendations, I'm personally a bit weary. I tried the 30s, and they needed to be warmed up for street use. Then on track, they still crapped all over my rotors (with cooling ducts). I'd expect the 60s to hold up on track, but I would expect you need to warm them up whenever you start driving, or any time you've been on the highway for a little while. I tried quite a few pads to find something for use on the street all summer without having to change them at the track, and I was finally starting to believe everyone telling me it wasn't possible. Then I tried the Carbone-Lorraine RC5s. With Star Specs and stiffer suspension, they hold up just fine. They never need warming up on the street, and the only reason I swap them out in the winter is to be nicer to my winter tires. With Hoosiers, you may need the RC6, but I believe they are also supposed to have great cold bite.
growling_boxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 01:39 AM   #8
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Default

Yep, CL makes really good pads, and the RC6 does have reasonable cold bite, but they are really hard on the rotors before they're warmed up. I don't think they make those in your shapes though. DTC60 or DS3000 maybe XP10 (although I don't know much about carbotech's pads) would be my suggestions.

And WRX suspension and an sti swaybar is WAYYY too soft for hoosiers. You'll also want to pull the crossmember spacers so the suspension geometry isn't completely ruined.
jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 07:34 AM   #9
MeltedOutback
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 215653
Join Date: Jun 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Pontiac, MI
Vehicle:
2004 vf34 FXT 5MT
aspen white

Default

I'm not even going to bother trying to find a pad to work for track and street; track pads and new rotors are too damn expensive to go that route, I'll just throw on stoptech street or hps pads for dd/autox

I think from these suggestions I'm leaning toward XP12/XP10 combo as I've heard many good things about carbotech (from serious track-day Honda guys, and many other applications)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Yep, CL makes really good pads, and the RC6 does have reasonable cold bite, but they are really hard on the rotors before they're warmed up. I don't think they make those in your shapes though. DTC60 or DS3000 maybe XP10 (although I don't know much about carbotech's pads) would be my suggestions.

And WRX suspension and an sti swaybar is WAYYY too soft for hoosiers. You'll also want to pull the crossmember spacers so the suspension geometry isn't completely ruined.
I don't think I'll have the coin for new struts this year, but I'm going to atleast get STi/GF210/etc springs, new tophats, and bigger sways. I don't want to pull subframe spacers until I get different springs because the COG is already pretty high

forgot to mention; STi aluminum control arms with homemade caster plates will also be going on shortly

Last edited by MeltedOutback; 04-11-2013 at 07:51 AM.
MeltedOutback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 02:32 PM   #10
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Default

Pulling the subframe spacers doesn't change your CG or ride height. Just fixes the suspension geometry after you put on wrx springs. It will actually reduce body roll too.
jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 02:42 PM   #11
SoapBox
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: I'll see myself out
Default

You should be fine on XP10s. While 12's have great bite, they are much tougher on rotors in my experience.
SoapBox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 03:15 PM   #12
Andrew47
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 233930
Join Date: Dec 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2013 WRX 5-door
PBP

Default

Why R6s and not A6s? On the SCCA club cars we have switched from R6s to A6s and since you're autocrossing to begin with why would you need R6? I understand that if you were road racing a forester you might need R6s for the heat of slowing down that beast but ... the performance should be very poor until they're warm vs. the A6

At the 2012 runoffs in our field 90% of the cars with hoosiers (again probably 90%) were running A6
Andrew47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 03:21 PM   #13
SoapBox
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: I'll see myself out
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew47 View Post
Why R6s and not A6s? On the SCCA club cars we have switched from R6s to A6s and since you're autocrossing to begin with why would you need R6? I understand that if you were road racing a forester you might need R6s for the heat of slowing down that beast but ... the performance should be very poor until they're warm vs. the A6

At the 2012 runoffs in our field 90% of the cars with hoosiers (again probably 90%) were running A6


He said he's tracking the car, in addition to autox. Running A6's at HPDEs would be assinine. Hell, I find R6s at track days to bea complete waste. Completely different from competitive road racing.
SoapBox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 03:47 PM   #14
MeltedOutback
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 215653
Join Date: Jun 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Pontiac, MI
Vehicle:
2004 vf34 FXT 5MT
aspen white

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Pulling the subframe spacers doesn't change your CG or ride height. Just fixes the suspension geometry after you put on wrx springs. It will actually reduce body roll too.
from what I've seen on SF.org (and makes sense to me) is that removing the subframe spacers will 'drop' the subframe, but since the struts remain fixed; the front clip will be raised the amount of the spacers. I've only seen guys remove the spacers after substantial drops, and paired with saggy butt spacer, recover some more fender-to-wheel clearance.
I realize that most of the front end weight is the powertrain; but I don't want to get the 'ol polar bear higher in the sky than she already is....
jamal; if you have more info on this I would love to see it, since I'll be in there to do control arms, possible steering rack bushings anyways... free mods (like free caster and plates) are my favorite!

I talked to Nick at KNS today and he recommend XP12 front and XP10 rear. I'm hoping to make it through all of this season's events on these rotors, if I can use this set-up again next year; even better

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post


He said he's tracking the car, in addition to autox. Running A6's at HPDEs would be assinine. Hell, I find R6s at track days to bea complete waste. Completely different from competitive road racing.
exactly: R6's for track use.

I usually autoX with the Furrin group, and they set some some FAST autoX tracks, so I may try the hoosiers if it is hot enough. I tried the R6's at an event at the end of the season; I won't make that mistake again, haha.

Last edited by MeltedOutback; 04-11-2013 at 03:54 PM.
MeltedOutback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 03:58 PM   #15
rjrutzky
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30367
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: nashville, tn
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
NASA SE PTB Champ

Default

a6 are way faster than r6 and the same price. I also see about the same life because A6 run pretty good to the cords and R6 can heat cycle out pretty bad. so why go with a slower tire?
rjrutzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 04:25 PM   #16
tazswing
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63767
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: PDX
Vehicle:
2009 OXT 5-spd
2011 STi hatch

Default

DTC-70s I like a little better than the 60s, I feel I can threshold brake a little more aggressiveness. They are both rated at the same mot, just more initial bite from the 70s. Indeed track only.

These pads need to be bedded-in properly or you will not get 100% out of them, and yes, they need to come up to temp., which is why I drag my brakes on the first straight. I hate people bitching about their pads who don't take the time to do proper heat cycling to bed them in (not saying you are).

RBF-660, flushed the night before every track event to keep wetness to a minimum.

Also, braking technique. There are some good threads on this.

And the above is my personal experience.
tazswing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 04:28 PM   #17
SoapBox
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: I'll see myself out
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
a6 are way faster than r6 and the same price. I also see about the same life because A6 run pretty good to the cords and R6 can heat cycle out pretty bad. so why go with a slower tire?
Something tells me a DE'er running R6's is going to be running them to the cords and not be concered if they fall off some over time.

Again, DE'ing, not competitive racing...

You're seriously suggesting this guy run A6s for driving events?
SoapBox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 04:39 PM   #18
rjrutzky
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30367
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: nashville, tn
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
NASA SE PTB Champ

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
You're seriously suggesting this guy run A6s for driving events?
I really could care less if he runs Nakyolo radials. Just mentioning that R6s are kinda worthless imo unless you are class mandated. He also does auto-x, and who knows if he's competitive, so yeah, why not?
rjrutzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:45 PM   #19
Andrew47
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 233930
Join Date: Dec 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2013 WRX 5-door
PBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I really could care less if he runs Nakyolo radials. Just mentioning that R6s are kinda worthless imo unless you are class mandated. He also does auto-x, and who knows if he's competitive, so yeah, why not?
Agreed.

If guys can go out in 3300lb BMWs on A6s and run 48+ miles @ RA in wheel to wheel competition I don't think something like a driver's experience is going to overheat them. It's been said that he's not "competitive road racing" so he shouldn't be braking hard enough to overheat the tires anyway. If he's set on buying Hoosier the A6s would be safer if he doesn't drive hard enough to get the R6s up to temp. Plus he would have a competitive autocross tire. The only reason our team doesn't run A6s all the time while road racing is because of budget issues (they can start shredding rubber/life at the end of a race but he's not road racing)

Just my opinion
Andrew47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:49 PM   #20
SoapBox
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: I'll see myself out
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I really could care less if he runs Nakyolo radials. Just mentioning that R6s are kinda worthless imo unless you are class mandated. He also does auto-x, and who knows if he's competitive, so yeah, why not?
Because he's DEing, so the to-the-cords life of the A6 is significantly less. As if the R6s didn't wear quickly anyway.
SoapBox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:52 PM   #21
SoapBox
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: I'll see myself out
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew47 View Post
Agreed.

If guys can go out in 3300lb BMWs on A6s and run 48+ miles @ RA in wheel to wheel competition I don't think something like a driver's experience is going to overheat them. It's been said that he's not "competitive road racing" so he shouldn't be braking hard enough to overheat the tires anyway. If he's set on buying Hoosier the A6s would be safer if he doesn't drive hard enough to get the R6s up to temp. Plus he would have a competitive autocross tire.
?

Advanced DE drivers/instructors may be using just as much brake/tire as you would in a competitive race. And they may be out for 5-6 or so 20-25 minute sessions per day. That's a few hours of track time a weekend. That will kill a set of A6s right quick. 48 miles? That could be half a track day.

Again, leave road racing out of it. We know R6s don't make sense. That is not what we're talking about. Recommending A6s to a DEer is silly.

Last edited by SoapBox; 04-11-2013 at 11:58 PM.
SoapBox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 07:20 AM   #22
MeltedOutback
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 215653
Join Date: Jun 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Pontiac, MI
Vehicle:
2004 vf34 FXT 5MT
aspen white

Default

I already have a set of R6's that were heat cycled once, I got them SUPER cheap, and a cheap set of wheels. If I get the R6's to last 2-3 track days I'll be happy. I will indeed be running them to the cords, same with my year old star specs, I want to make this rubber last one more season so I'm not planning on putting a ton of miles on the car except for travel to events.

AutoX is just for fun and more seat time, I'm not competitive. Hell, I barely even run SCCA events because they are too damn expensive!

Look at my mod list; this a weekend warrior DD, not a prepped road race car, haha
MeltedOutback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 07:57 AM   #23
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeltedOutback View Post
from what I've seen on SF.org (and makes sense to me) is that removing the subframe spacers will 'drop' the subframe, but since the struts remain fixed; the front clip will be raised the amount of the spacers. I've only seen guys remove the spacers after substantial drops, and paired with saggy butt spacer, recover some more fender-to-wheel clearance.
I realize that most of the front end weight is the powertrain; but I don't want to get the 'ol polar bear higher in the sky than she already is....
jamal; if you have more info on this I would love to see it, since I'll be in there to do control arms, possible steering rack bushings anyways... free mods (like free caster and plates) are my favorite!
Removing the FXT cross member spacers will net you a lower COG not raise it! The body drops down with removal and does net a lower ride height. You will gain a full degree of + caster with the delete also. You should plan to swap out the front cross member and put an STI steering rack in if you do the spacer delete. You'll also need the WRX trans cross member or STI one but use the 5 speed trans mount. You basically are taking the SUV spacers out and changing the geometry to a WRX or STI type suspension geometry. You're going to need the RCA kit also with this change because of the drop.

Do the free caster mod also and change the rear transverse mounts on the LCA to the whiteline off set caster bushings. I'll tell you that this will totally transform the Foz and its handling and IT IS WORTH IT!!

My XTI has +6* caster now and will soon have close to 7* with some tweaks I'm doing.

Here's a link to the 6 speed cross member/ spacer delete info but it will apply to what you would be doing just with the 5 speed.

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...ad.php?t=73266

Last edited by manitou; 04-12-2013 at 08:14 AM.
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 08:04 AM   #24
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

FYI, I'm swapping in some Feal rebuilt Ohlins FPS on my car later this month and will be selling the Feal re-valved 04 STI struts that I have on my car now. I'm running them with Swift R Spec springs and the XTI handles amazing with them. I'm keeping the Swifts to run with the Ohlins but I highly recommend them!

Let me know if you have any questions about these FXT suspension mods.

Here's a thread on my car it doesn't detail all the suspension work I've done but does show the ride height. I'm running tall 245/45-18 tires and I clear them now but have rolled my fenders and run 3/4" saggy butts on the rear top hats. I'm adding some custom made by me 1/2" top hat spacers to the front Com C top hats when I swap in the Ohlins.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2480570
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 08:09 AM   #25
SoapBox
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: I'll see myself out
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeltedOutback View Post
I already have a set of R6's that were heat cycled once, I got them SUPER cheap, and a cheap set of wheels. If I get the R6's to last 2-3 track days I'll be happy. I will indeed be running them to the cords, same with my year old star specs, I want to make this rubber last one more season so I'm not planning on putting a ton of miles on the car except for travel to events.

AutoX is just for fun and more seat time, I'm not competitive. Hell, I barely even run SCCA events because they are too damn expensive!

Look at my mod list; this a weekend warrior DD, not a prepped road race car, haha
From what I'm reading, you're looking at 1-2 hours (likely around 1) until cords on A6s. Needless to say, a horrible idea for you.

Cheap is cheap, and even cycled-out R6s are plenty fast.
SoapBox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.