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Old 07-13-2017, 09:15 PM   #1801
smoky
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Anybody with a GD that was able to eliminate rear wheel lift in tight corner? If so what is your setup?

Currently trying to go in a totally different direction with the car setup after installing recommended diff by OSGiken. Rear one is very loose and not strong enough when rear wheel lift, but I also notice that when wheel are on the ground I can go full throttle with more steering angle than last year with my old diff (carbonetic was able to fully lock under wheel lift). I think if I can eliminate wheel lift without too much sacrifice on grip car will be faster than last year.

Current setup is 13k front with no helper spring and 25mm hollow sway bar. 12k rear with 3K helper spring with stock STI sway bar. I want to try, going back to 8k or 10k rear spring and/or larger sway bar in the front. Car is also lowered by at least 2 inches.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:28 PM   #1802
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have you tried running without the rear bar?
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:33 AM   #1803
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I'd second the removal of the rear bar. I did not run a rear bar in the last 4 years I competed and added a monster wing to keep the rear end down.

If you have his contact info may try getting in touch with Neil Tovsen, I know he had a heck of a battle getting his OSGiken diff in his Miata setup correctly, with much resistance from OSGiken themselves. If you don't have his info, pm me, I can be a go between.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:35 AM   #1804
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The rear bar removal will band-aid the issue with rear wheel lift but, IMO, the problem should be addressed via rear diff lockup tuning. Maybe reach out to Lugod @ OSG or talk with Subydude (here at Nasioc) as I believe he's running their diffs now.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:10 AM   #1805
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I do have their diffs, and the initial setup from OSGiken is a bit too loose. I think they assume we're going to keep the rear wheel down (which I don't think we should) and set it up accordingly. I've started talking to Lugod about changing things up. The front is also close on setup, but not perfect. I just don't think OSGiken has had someone with a well setup Subaru work with them yet.

I still run a rear bar, with a wing, and there's some corner exit hop, but it's not bad.
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:18 PM   #1806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
I do have their diffs, and the initial setup from OSGiken is a bit too loose. I think they assume we're going to keep the rear wheel down (which I don't think we should) and set it up accordingly. I've started talking to Lugod about changing things up. The front is also close on setup, but not perfect. I just don't think OSGiken has had someone with a well setup Subaru work with them yet.

I still run a rear bar, with a wing, and there's some corner exit hop, but it's not bad.
Good luck with Ludgod. He thinks he's a genius but he's shown time and again on another forum he lacks a basic understanding of physics, nevermind how it applies to cars. He's going to fight you and claim that your suspension is setup wrong and that you need to tune the car to work with the diff.
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Old 07-15-2017, 09:10 PM   #1807
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Good luck with Ludgod. He thinks he's a genius but he's shown time and again on another forum he lacks a basic understanding of physics, nevermind how it applies to cars. He's going to fight you and claim that your suspension is setup wrong and that you need to tune the car to work with the diff.
Actually, his first response was rather polite and to the point of "let's re-tune them". Everyone likes their car setup a little different, so I'm not surprised that vendors will stick to their guns somewhat. I've dealt with my fair share for sure.

However, if he did try to say my suspension setup was wrong I'd likely laugh.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:06 PM   #1808
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What AOS do you guys use? I think I heard someone saying that the IAG is more efficient for autocross than the others? I have the Crawford right now, but still letting some oil in the car.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:34 PM   #1809
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Originally Posted by smoky View Post
What AOS do you guys use? I think I heard someone saying that the IAG is more efficient for autocross than the others? I have the Crawford right now, but still letting some oil in the car.
IAG competition can is what you want. It's big enough to hold the oil that is pushed out, and the design is better than the Crawford can.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:36 AM   #1810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
Actually, his first response was rather polite and to the point of "let's re-tune them". Everyone likes their car setup a little different, so I'm not surprised that vendors will stick to their guns somewhat. I've dealt with my fair share for sure.

However, if he did try to say my suspension setup was wrong I'd likely laugh.
I'm surprised based on what I've heard from other OSGiken owners. It is good to hear though, maybe they have learned a thing or two in the last few years.

What is your center and rear diff setup?

I have been planning (for my XP car, assuming I can afford to get it running again) to change to a helical front diff, torsen hopefully, stick with the 80% lockup Cusco clutch rear and the stock 4kg viscous center. I plan on a few changes that will always keep the front wheels planted and lift a rear tire occasionally to be able to get the most power down possible. This should also help pull out of corners more like a balanced RWD car.

Would appreciate your thoughts on this as my 2.1L is almost assembled.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:06 AM   #1811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedyHAM View Post
I'm surprised based on what I've heard from other OSGiken owners. It is good to hear though, maybe they have learned a thing or two in the last few years.

What is your center and rear diff setup?

I have been planning (for my XP car, assuming I can afford to get it running again) to change to a helical front diff, torsen hopefully, stick with the 80% lockup Cusco clutch rear and the stock 4kg viscous center. I plan on a few changes that will always keep the front wheels planted and lift a rear tire occasionally to be able to get the most power down possible. This should also help pull out of corners more like a balanced RWD car.

Would appreciate your thoughts on this as my 2.1L is almost assembled.
I've got a 6-speed in mine so it's the OE DCCD from a 2007 STi. Front and rear are OSGiken in the standard 1-way/1.5-way.

I don't like tuning the suspension to keep wheels down. I tune the suspension to give me the most lateral acceleration in a corner, then tune the diffs to compliment that. I try every so often to do something different and pretty consistently come back to "the rear wheel is just going to be in the air a lot". I almost never lift fronts all the way, but they do get light enough that a gear type diff would not be my first choice.

The biggest thing was going from a viscous center to a DCCD center. The car became much more rwd bias and the torque transfer was immediate. Way easier to drive and you can actually feel the car transferring power front and rear to keep things in line.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:31 AM   #1812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
IAG competition can is what you want. It's big enough to hold the oil that is pushed out, and the design is better than the Crawford can.
I noted on IAGs website that they recommend the "IAG Street" version for E85 users.

"*Please note that IAG recommends the STREET SERIES AOS for ALL cars running E85 or high-ethanol fuel blends. When tuning E85, ethanol vapors tend to stay in the crankcase, which ultimately results in the oil becoming diluted and requiring extremely frequent oil changes. Pulling vacuum via the Street Series recirculating design to the inlet is ideal for ethanol tuned vehicles, and will allow the ethanol to be removed from the crankcase and burnt off as part of the combustion process. "

-Paul
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:38 AM   #1813
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Originally Posted by AtomicRacer View Post
I noted on IAGs website that they recommend the "IAG Street" version for E85 users.

"*Please note that IAG recommends the STREET SERIES AOS for ALL cars running E85 or high-ethanol fuel blends. When tuning E85, ethanol vapors tend to stay in the crankcase, which ultimately results in the oil becoming diluted and requiring extremely frequent oil changes. Pulling vacuum via the Street Series recirculating design to the inlet is ideal for ethanol tuned vehicles, and will allow the ethanol to be removed from the crankcase and burnt off as part of the combustion process. "

-Paul
They do that for the reasons listed, however if you have a shorter oil change interval like most people who autox on hoosiers then the competition is fine. If you call them they'll tell you that, but on the public site they're going to put the CYA verbiage.

For instance, I change my oil every 100 runs of autox. According to blackstone the oil looks like it has 4,000 miles or so on it at that point in time. So, two oil changes a year and no oil in my intake ever. I like that.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:46 PM   #1814
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To add on to what Tim said, I had Blackstone analyze my oil 3 times running the IAG Competition AOS and E85. All three about 1200-1300 miles per interval, almost all street driving between autoX events. They found no fuel contamination.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:45 AM   #1815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
They do that for the reasons listed, however if you have a shorter oil change interval like most people who autox on hoosiers then the competition is fine. If you call them they'll tell you that, but on the public site they're going to put the CYA verbiage.

For instance, I change my oil every 100 runs of autox. According to blackstone the oil looks like it has 4,000 miles or so on it at that point in time. So, two oil changes a year and no oil in my intake ever. I like that.
Tim,

Thanks for the additional info.

-Paul
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Old 08-02-2017, 05:14 PM   #1816
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I'll need to order a new set of A7 soon, after a full year and over 80-90 runs the current one are getting slower. Currently runs 315 on 18x10.5, what do you think of trying to fit some 335 on the same wheels?
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Old 08-02-2017, 05:33 PM   #1817
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I don't see it being worth it. the 315 is already slightly pinched as it is on the 10.5.
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Old 08-03-2017, 11:20 PM   #1818
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It would be more grip, but not as noticeable as if you spent some money on 11's or 12's and stuck with the 315's.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:39 AM   #1819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
I've got a 6-speed in mine so it's the OE DCCD from a 2007 STi. Front and rear are OSGiken in the standard 1-way/1.5-way.

I don't like tuning the suspension to keep wheels down. I tune the suspension to give me the most lateral acceleration in a corner, then tune the diffs to compliment that. I try every so often to do something different and pretty consistently come back to "the rear wheel is just going to be in the air a lot". I almost never lift fronts all the way, but they do get light enough that a gear type diff would not be my first choice.

The biggest thing was going from a viscous center to a DCCD center. The car became much more rwd bias and the torque transfer was immediate. Way easier to drive and you can actually feel the car transferring power front and rear to keep things in line.
Most of my handling problems stemmed from the lockup of the front diff coming out of corners causing push. It was good on entry and good mid corner, but corner exit I was losing time. A torsen with proper suspension tuning to take advantage of it would help pull the car out of corners instead of causing push, leading to higher lateral acceleration throughout the corner.

I see a center DCCD as a band-aid in biasing torque to the rear wheels to counter the understeer being caused by the front diff locking up under acceleration. Ultimately the torsen and a DCCD with a great controller would be best.

Ultimate lateral acceleration will happen when the tires that are the most loaded are at their optimal slip angle. Locking the front end under acceleration means the inside front will never be even close to it's optimal slip angle.

This is my theory, I hope I get to test it.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:16 PM   #1820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedyHAM View Post
Most of my handling problems stemmed from the lockup of the front diff coming out of corners causing push. It was good on entry and good mid corner, but corner exit I was losing time. A torsen with proper suspension tuning to take advantage of it would help pull the car out of corners instead of causing push, leading to higher lateral acceleration throughout the corner.

I see a center DCCD as a band-aid in biasing torque to the rear wheels to counter the understeer being caused by the front diff locking up under acceleration. Ultimately the torsen and a DCCD with a great controller would be best.

Ultimate lateral acceleration will happen when the tires that are the most loaded are at their optimal slip angle. Locking the front end under acceleration means the inside front will never be even close to it's optimal slip angle.

This is my theory, I hope I get to test it.
I get your theory, but I think you're missing the point that a 1 way clutch pack diff can be tuned to work better than a torsen and not cause the front to ever understeer. You're also missing how much the rear diff plays into power on understeer.

The DCCD isn't a bandaid at all, it's a useful device that lets you dial in the balance of the car on power. What you're missing by not having it is the ability to have an actual, true 50:50 split. The viscous center will ALWAYS spin the front up first, which is why you're having so many issues with locking the front first. It's getting all the torque, and only after it gets it does the center viscous start to lock and send power rearward. I have videos from when I had a viscous center that show on hard launches the front wheels spinning up first and then the rears following suit a few tenths later. The great thing about the DCCD is you get 50:50, but you also can get rear bias for when you want rotation as well.

Yes, text book ultimate lateral acceleration will happen at the optimal slip angle at all four wheels. Assuming you can actually get that to happen on a production car, you know the optimal slip angle from the manufacturer, and continually reset your car for whatever surface and temperature you encounter... That almost never occurs in autox though. I use a race capture hooked into solo storm to measure the G values. If a change makes those values go up in steady state, that's good. If it doesn't or it goes down, I undo it. I can say that in my testing, trying to keep the wheels down does not result in higher G values, and in most cases is detrimental to how fast the car is through corners. Allowing the car to move (assuming fixed camber curves, etc) provides higher peak and sustained lateral G values. Using DCCD with a good controller and clutch pack diffs maintains or improves longitudinal values as well.

However, if you're able to make your theory work, then cool I've been told many times I was wrong so I'm not going to tell you that. I'm just going to suggest I've seen others try and not succeed using a gear type front.
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:48 AM   #1821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedyHAM View Post
Most of my handling problems stemmed from the lockup of the front diff coming out of corners causing push. It was good on entry and good mid corner, but corner exit I was losing time. A torsen with proper suspension tuning to take advantage of it would help pull the car out of corners instead of causing push, leading to higher lateral acceleration throughout the corner.

I see a center DCCD as a band-aid in biasing torque to the rear wheels to counter the understeer being caused by the front diff locking up under acceleration. Ultimately the torsen and a DCCD with a great controller would be best.

Ultimate lateral acceleration will happen when the tires that are the most loaded are at their optimal slip angle. Locking the front end under acceleration means the inside front will never be even close to it's optimal slip angle.

This is my theory, I hope I get to test it.
I've got more FWD experience (~10 years of autox, track day, club race in FWD) and have never seen the front of the car drive better with a helical than it does with a properly tuned clutch diff. As Tim mentioned, getting a 1 way diff up there that won't cause push on entry but will help tighten the line/tuck the nose on throttle is (IMO too) the way to go.

FWIW, I'm a big fan of evaluating and testing your own ideas also. I've done some stuff that "shouldn't work" and had positive results... I've also done some stuff that didn't work. In both cases, I came away with a new understanding of what the car was doing and additional ideas to make it faster.
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:16 AM   #1822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
I get your theory, but I think you're missing the point that a 1 way clutch pack diff can be tuned to work better than a torsen and not cause the front to ever understeer. You're also missing how much the rear diff plays into power on understeer.

The DCCD isn't a bandaid at all, it's a useful device that lets you dial in the balance of the car on power. What you're missing by not having it is the ability to have an actual, true 50:50 split. The viscous center will ALWAYS spin the front up first, which is why you're having so many issues with locking the front first. It's getting all the torque, and only after it gets it does the center viscous start to lock and send power rearward. I have videos from when I had a viscous center that show on hard launches the front wheels spinning up first and then the rears following suit a few tenths later. The great thing about the DCCD is you get 50:50, but you also can get rear bias for when you want rotation as well.

Yes, text book ultimate lateral acceleration will happen at the optimal slip angle at all four wheels. Assuming you can actually get that to happen on a production car, you know the optimal slip angle from the manufacturer, and continually reset your car for whatever surface and temperature you encounter... That almost never occurs in autox though. I use a race capture hooked into solo storm to measure the G values. If a change makes those values go up in steady state, that's good. If it doesn't or it goes down, I undo it. I can say that in my testing, trying to keep the wheels down does not result in higher G values, and in most cases is detrimental to how fast the car is through corners. Allowing the car to move (assuming fixed camber curves, etc) provides higher peak and sustained lateral G values. Using DCCD with a good controller and clutch pack diffs maintains or improves longitudinal values as well.

However, if you're able to make your theory work, then cool I've been told many times I was wrong so I'm not going to tell you that. I'm just going to suggest I've seen others try and not succeed using a gear type front.
Tried a clutch type front diff with a few different tunes for a few years. Never got it to work the way I wanted. I still think some suspension tuning and a gear type front diff will make things better. We shall see.
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:04 AM   #1823
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Originally Posted by speedyHAM View Post
Tried a clutch type front diff with a few different tunes for a few years. Never got it to work the way I wanted. I still think some suspension tuning and a gear type front diff will make things better. We shall see.
Was it a 1 way? What was it doing that you didn't like or wasn't doing that you wanted it to? I'm genuinely curious because you're the first person I've run into who's going back to a gear type diff and I'd like to understand more of the "why".
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:17 AM   #1824
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What rear diff were you using at the time?
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:45 AM   #1825
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Originally Posted by Xian_1 View Post
Was it a 1 way? What was it doing that you didn't like or wasn't doing that you wanted it to? I'm genuinely curious because you're the first person I've run into who's going back to a gear type diff and I'd like to understand more of the "why".
It is a 1 way Cusco set at 60% lockup. What I didn't like is that once power was applied the front end would understeer- always. My car is pretty well optimized and prior to the last set of suspension subframes it would go up on two wheels on certain high grip surfaces. After I fixed that the front end would wash out far sooner than the rear when on power out of corners.

Rear diff was (and is) a Cusco clutch set at 100% lockup. Type MZ I think, the one that will lock up at 1 mph vs. the street driveable one. Most people think my car is broken when I pull out of a parking lot space.
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