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03-13-2013, 12:18 PM | #201 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
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MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:2006 XTI Limited OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP |
OK, you're spooling way faster but to be fair you have a external gate and a 3071 non stock location and he has a stock location internal gated 3076!
I can't wait to see what the 3576 does!!
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03-13-2013, 12:52 PM | #202 |
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Only 2 questions here...
When are these going public? When are you gonna develop a compound turbo setup? |
03-13-2013, 01:53 PM | #203 | |
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Quote:
I didn't mean to plumb it in the production pieces. I agree that part isn't necessary. I meant to plumb it in just for your testing. If you can show for example increased shaft speed acceleration or lower EGBP across the curve, then it would help to prove there are gains not quantifiable in the torque curve. It would also point out that the twin scrolls require more extensive avcs mapping. I would think that shaft speed increases at low rpm would be a good indicator of response over a dyno pull. I feel the same way for your current low mount kit, even though the dyno is showing improved spool. This would be interesting to see in your open scroll version, but the data would be less meaningful without comparison data on a traditionally mounted setup. For example, one of the assumptions about the traditional mounted setups (even the rotated which has the same post header volume as stock) is that the high volume requires a lot of egbp to accelerate the turbine, and going to the 63 hotside helps increase velocity but has a more severe effect on flow as rpm rises as compared to other systems that seem to run fine with small turbine/large compressor. The 4g63 seems to run fine with the 63 for example and they make good power with gtx3076. I was sad to see that the 63 fell off so much on your low mount kit, and that contradicts this assumption. That extra data point would just help to get a bigger picture and the effects different concepts have on final outcome. But if no can, no can. I understand that you have bigger fish to fry. |
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03-13-2013, 02:03 PM | #204 |
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Wow that cast piece sounds cool!!!! It's really a shame that garret doesn't make more hotside options. I know that they showed prototypes at Sema a few years ago. I helped a friend with an sr20det t3 twinscroll kit. We had all kinds of issues trying to get the bolts into the hot side and the supplied bolts actually penetrated the turbine housing. Once we finally got it all together, my friend wanted to pull the bolts out to cut them down. I wanted to murder him ahhaha
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03-14-2013, 08:44 AM | #205 | ||||
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Quote:
I can't wait either!! Quote:
We looked into a compound setup. It can be done, but the price is astonomical. The bang for the buck just isn't anywhere near a justifiable point. With the little 3071 we have better spool-up characteristics than the VF, which is pretty freaking instant. If you want the BIG turbo AND instantanious power it would be much less costly to go nitros or ALS. Niether I would recommend on the street, but we do work with a hand full of race teams that use ALS, but they are also performing regular engine rebuilds too. Quote:
Quote:
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03-14-2013, 09:05 AM | #206 |
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Also, I've got another member interested in an inlet adapter with accompanying compressor housing modifications. If anyone else is interested now is the time, because they are hugely expensive to make one at a time.
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03-14-2013, 10:10 AM | #207 |
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Can you make a group buy around may or so?
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03-14-2013, 10:20 AM | #208 | |
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Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:2006 XTI Limited OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP |
Quote:
Get er done Chris |
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03-14-2013, 10:51 AM | #209 |
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Doesnt the waste gate crack open before target boost to prevent overboosting? Ideally you should leave the waste gate closed to the last possible moment as target boost is reached right?
The vacuum boost control system could use some redesigning in my opinion. A while back i was in discussion with Moore Performance on a few ideas i had, but i woud have to put money into it that i dont have to see if it worked. One day i plan on revisiting it, but in mean time i wouldnt be suprised if someone doesnt beat me to it. |
03-14-2013, 11:15 AM | #210 | |
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Likely not
Quote:
I share a different opinion on WG size. I prefer the smallest needed for an application, which for Subarus is generally 38mm. The smaller the WG the better the fidelity, or more precise control. It's always easier to regulate a prices amount of flow/volume from a smaller valve than a bigger valve. |
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03-14-2013, 11:29 AM | #211 |
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Even running a MBC on an internal wastegate won't prevent the door from blowing open due to high EGBP if the preload isn't set right.
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03-14-2013, 11:53 AM | #212 | |
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Quote:
I'm with Kelly on the PL of the internal gate and EGBP. Also the turbulence caused from the traditional SL Subaru internal gate does not help! Bottom line is that your LM kit with the EWG and smaller turbo has big advantages over the SL bigger IWG turbo with regards to spool. A better comparison would be same gtx3071, same gate, low mount vs stock area rotated location. I know your LM will spool faster but how much more would be nice to see! My position is that the delta or differential as a percentage in spool characteristics between the turbo locations your LM to SL rotated will get larger as the turbo size increases! |
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03-15-2013, 09:57 PM | #213 |
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Take My Money!
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03-18-2013, 02:24 PM | #214 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
OK OK. We'll let you know when we're ready |
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03-18-2013, 03:22 PM | #215 | |
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Vehicle:2006 XTI Limited OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP |
Quote:
That sound like a great idea, a 3" down pipe and EWG exhaust, merging into a collector/ expansion chamber and into a full 3.5" exhaust that you supply (or not?). The 3.5" has an area of 30.23 sq in. and a 3" exhaust with a 1.75" gate exhaust/ 44mm gate (use the bigger for calculations) would have an area of 29.77 sq in. so you have the flow covered without loosing the gains of the external gate. Another up side is you control the whole exhaust tract and the performance of that if you supply that! The downside of the merged turbo and gate exhaust is the added expense to the buyer who may have a nice 3" exhaust but now has to buy your kit with a new exhaust. As well you will have multiple platforms to design the exhaust system for. Figuring that you dump the gate close to the turbo with a muffler then you could assume the following. The up side of the separate EWG exhaust would be easier to fabricate for you and less costly to the customer. It will flow exactly what it needs without the complication of the merging exhausts. Down side is the loss of complete control of the exhaust tract using the customer supplied exhaust beyond the down pipe which you would supply. JMHO |
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03-18-2013, 04:20 PM | #216 |
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^ All valid points
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03-18-2013, 09:52 PM | #217 |
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Dump to atm and the customer can re-route EWG if they want. That makes it easiest to produce and fits the largest market, correct?
I was going to have ETS custom make me something similar to this but if you introduce your kit some time before this fall then I might just hold out for your setup. |
03-25-2013, 09:20 AM | #218 |
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Correct. We may offer a couple options, but we've never been one to take the route of manufacturing convenience, because it's the easy way
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04-08-2013, 09:38 AM | #219 |
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Just so you guys don't think I'm doing nothing over here. This is something I've always wanted to do. Based on some reading I've done this is a weakness in the cooling system. I don't intend to do any testing on my own to verify, but there is significantly more flow capacity and significantly less turbulence in this piece vs OEM casting.
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04-08-2013, 09:56 AM | #220 | |
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Quote:
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04-08-2013, 10:06 AM | #221 |
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I think it looks good and would probably increase flow, however I can smell a debate on the necessity coming. My gut tells me this will help the dedicated circuit racers that see sustained loads for more than a few bursts.
If nothing more it gets rid of the stock ugliness which for some builds is dang near mandatory. **edit** It just dawned on me this may be necessary for part of this kit due to radiator / other size/space restraints . So if that is the case then it will obviously be useful Last edited by Layvon; 04-08-2013 at 10:30 AM. |
04-08-2013, 02:08 PM | #222 | ||
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Quote:
I only got enough stuff to make the one, but if there's demand we'll make some more and see what happens. Quote:
The Low Mount Kit did have some off the shelf bends and couplers. It wasn't pretty, but it worked just fine, so this part isn't needed. Although it does look pretty cool and I did angle the inlet to match the Low Mount specific radiator I designed |
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04-08-2013, 05:46 PM | #223 |
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ever thought of running the turbo transverse and reversing/stacking coolers? sorta like v mount but with a short and wide (11x31) rad mounted in the intercooler position and the intercooler mounted to the upper rad support (22x12)?
you would be one less bend into the turbine and one less bend into the compressor. depending on intercooler height it could make it so you dont need the oil scavenge pump and so intercooler piping was less than 2 feet. you would have to fabricate new rad hoses but its not like you havent done that to a point already. and it would allow you to use more off the shelf parts. the only disadvantage i can see is that exposed surface area for the intercooler could be reduced for the intercooler on 02-05 models. Last edited by azn2nr; 04-08-2013 at 05:52 PM. |
04-09-2013, 06:53 AM | #224 |
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^ I'm pretty sure I've thought about it every way to Sunday
The bend into the turbine would be nice to get rid of, but physically the turbocharger just won't fit between engine and front cross member. Remember, this is supposed to be a 'bolt-in' kit. In the beginning I spent a lot of time thinking about going straight out the front like you're talking about. I even went so far as some sketches with a split radiator, but ditched the idea because it got considerably more expensive. I didn't like how it would add feet to the exhaust (adding exhaust length adds backpressure). The bend going into the turbine doesn't bother me. It's a 3" bend for ample flow and has some straight before the compressor inlet so turbulence shouldn't be too bad. |
04-09-2013, 07:12 AM | #225 |
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I see ambient temps of 100+F for 3-4 months of the year down here so I'd be in for one of the lower coolant hose deals.
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