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Old 05-29-2012, 10:06 AM   #51
nrcooled
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
The Model S is pretty sexy. If you have the means, go for it.

First of all, you need to see what sorts of things VA offers for electric cars. WV offers 35% up to $7500 of tax credit for EVs. Combine that with the federal tax credit, and you chop $15k right off the top of the Model S price.
Thanks for making me take a look! VA is offering a tax credit for EVs of $2000 and a break on titling tax.

All said and done, the price of the Tesla will be coming down below a comparable E-Class, 5 Series, or A6.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:39 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheezeWeezle View Post
these!

You're going to finance a, what, $90k car and purchase a petrol car? You seriously should look at a cpo luxury car that already has taken the depreciation hit.
The price is much lower for the non-signature Tesla Model S. At 60k it is very comparable to the other cars that I am cross shopping at the moment. The depreciation/residual value is something that I am concerned about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post


I commend the OP. Relevant links:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/laws/VA/tech/3270
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=110997398
http://www.dom.com/about/environment...c-vehicles.jsp

From the second, here's your local power generation mix:




50% from non-renewables isn't bad. It's too bad there's no program that I could find akin to Seattle's Green Up: http://www.seattle.gov/light/green/g...er/greenup.asp
Great links. Thanks for the info

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheezeWeezle View Post
fair enough but it still seems he is going a bit beyond his means. And it's not like tesla dealers are widespread
I have always been a cheap skate when it comes to cars. I was always stuck in the "if the payment is over $300/month then the car is too expensive". I really need to change my thinking to adapt to the new car market.

There is a DC store on K Street and I have taken a look at a Beta Model S. In Beta trim it is still a great looking car with a lot of features that will make ownership very unique. Pano roof, 17' touch screen control center, OLED dash, user/driver configurable settings and information, along with a lot of space in the cabin.

Not to mention, since the car was produced as a EV from the beginning there is nothing "retrofitted" to make it an EV. The Frunk (the trunk in the front) has plenty of space for luggage/groceries/etc. And the back hatch has a ton of room. If you put the seats down it is almost cavernous and makes my WRX look like a Versa space wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thug View Post
They offer a "pre-buy" battery replacement that's fairly reasonable. You also have to figure battery tech will improve over the next ~5 years.
This. Tesla designed the battery pack to be swapped out in a matter of minutes. As technology progresses I could opt to swap out the battery packs for newer/denser batteries that will give more performance or range.

Hopefully, this will future proof the car for a while during ownership. As new technology rolls out it can upgrade without buying a new car. This is contingent, of course, on the newer battery tech being in the same form factor as the current batteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parsons View Post
Includes the $7500 tax credit though.


Looks like the battery warranty is 8yr/100k up to 8yr/unlimited on the 85kwh.
I think if you are shopping M5s and the like, Tesla is just another choice, not a way to save money.
Absolutely correct. I am not looking at this as a way to point and laugh at others to say that I have the better bargain but to essentially buy the car that fits my needs the most. Space, comfort, luxury, tech, and performance all coupled with always having a filled up car when I leave the house.

The wife has a 2011 VW CC that we can use for road trips or longer hauls (trips to NYC) but the S will meet 99% of the driving that I need it for. Trips to DC (20 miles away), commuting (10 miles away), and the occasional trip to other points in VA/MD can all be done easily in the Tesla.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:54 AM   #53
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I can't help but laugh at people who think electric is the fuel of the future for automobiles. It isn't, and never will be. You idiots are buying betamax/laserdisc/HD DVD cars. Enjoy wasting your money.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:08 AM   #54
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I can't help but laugh at people who think electric is the fuel of the future for automobiles. It isn't, and never will be. You idiots are buying betamax/laserdisc/HD DVD cars. Enjoy wasting your money.
What do you think the future is? Hydrogen?
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrcooled

Thanks for making me take a look! VA is offering a tax credit for EVs of $2000 and a break on titling tax.

All said and done, the price of the Tesla will be coming down below a comparable E-Class, 5 Series, or A6.
With none of the reliability, resale, or refinement.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai

What do you think the future is? Hydrogen?
Serial hybrid short term, hydrogen in the long term.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:14 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb124
I can't help but laugh at people who think electric is the fuel of the future for automobiles. It isn't, and never will be. You idiots are buying betamax/laserdisc/HD DVD cars. Enjoy wasting your money.
Hey, we agree on something. Bro hug?
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:14 AM   #58
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This seems like a terrible decision to me.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:19 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
What do you think the future is? Hydrogen?
Probably. Maybe nat gas. It is cheaper than dirt and we have an abundance of it.

But think about it. A vehicle powered by batteries. I am changing batteries in my kids toys every couple weeks. Battery technology is decades away, if ever from being anywhere near ready to replace the range and reliability of gas. If it wasn't for the government throwing money hand over fist at electric cars, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Electric cars are a joke.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:51 AM   #60
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Buying a Tesla is like buying someone else's science experiment. If you are cool with that, knock yourself out.

I'd stay far, far away personally.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:11 PM   #61
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Serial hybrids are going to become pretty common soon. In the near future, the batteries will actually be molded into body panels to eliminate the space required for them and combining body panels and batteries saves weight in the finished vehicles. Audi has a really small rotary engine that can be used in serial hybrids that is very small and light and you'll see more engines develope specifically for the application soon. The technology is here for serial hybrids to be efficient and usable. Hydrogen vehicles have the technology available, but the reliability, range, and infrastructure isn't there to make them viable yet, but that will come in the next 20 years, I think, and make them very attractive as fuel prices continue to rise.

I'm seriously going to look at the Ford Fusion serial hybrid when it comes out. It looks good and should drive decently too.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:18 PM   #62
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Wind-up cars is where it's at.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:26 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb124 View Post
I can't help but laugh at people who think electric is the fuel of the future for automobiles. It isn't, and never will be. You idiots are buying betamax/laserdisc/HD DVD cars. Enjoy wasting your money.
Being an early adopter has it's risks. The mitigating factor is that the car meets all of my requirements. The size, features, range, etc. all meet the needs of the house. I don't have to worry about not having a full infrastructure to support my EV like I would with a Hydrogen/CNG/etc. vehicle since I can charge at home.

As more EVs get on the road the availability of charging stations will increase which could potentially allow the EV in my house to become a primary vehicle as opposed to a secondary vehicle. My wife's car will serve all of the needs that we have for the 1% of our household driving that goes beyond the range of the Model S.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:39 PM   #64
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^ I don't know why everyone is giving the OP such sh**. I think it's pretty cool he's taking one for the team and trying out an unknown quantity. None of us sure as hell would take the chance, and most of OT doesn't even live remotely close enough to a Tesla dealership to even see one in person.

I'm interested to see pics and read what this guys real world ownership experience is since he's willing to take the potential grenade.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:44 PM   #65
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Model S looks like a Fisker Karma...
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:02 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCerealBoX
Model S looks like a Fisker Karma...
Except it doesn't look like a horrible cartoon of a car.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:05 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
Serial hybrid short term, hydrogen in the long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb124 View Post
Probably [hydrogen]. Maybe nat gas. It is cheaper than dirt and we have an abundance of it.
13 public NGV filling stations exist in the Pacific NW. What's the use of having a quickly refillable car if you can't travel outside the metro area anyway for lack of infrastructure?



8 (yes, eight) public hydrogen filling stations exist in the entire country, of which 0 in the Pacific NW and only 1 is outside the LA metro area:



Add to this limited NGV vehicle availability (Civic GX, big 3 HD pickups, expensive aftermarket conversions), basically no consumer hydrogen fuel cell vehicle availability aside from the for-show Clarity FCX stunt, and valid environmental concerns about NG fracking techniques and I don't see either of these fuels having a vibrant near-term future.

In comparison, EV infrastructure is worlds ahead. Home charging will be dominant (just as NGV drivers could fill up at home), but there's also a fast charger network being built out. Again, using my favored Pac NW as an example, the West Coast Green Highway project states:

Quote:
At the end of 2012, the West Coast Electric Highway will host more than 100 publicly accessible EV DC fast-charging stations on I-5, at key locations near major travel destinations, and along heavily-traveled highway corridors radiating out from I-5 every 40-60 miles.
Of course, the above is just a promise, easily broken and as of yet unfulfilled in its entirety, but that doesn't detract from the reality that there is a substantial public charging infrastructure already in place, something that neither hydrogen nor NG can boast. Currently installed public charging points:

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Old 05-29-2012, 02:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
Serial hybrids are going to become pretty common soon. In the near future, the batteries will actually be molded into body panels to eliminate the space required for them and combining body panels and batteries saves weight in the finished vehicles. Audi has a really small rotary engine that can be used in serial hybrids that is very small and light and you'll see more engines develope specifically for the application soon. The technology is here for serial hybrids to be efficient and usable. Hydrogen vehicles have the technology available, but the reliability, range, and infrastructure isn't there to make them viable yet, but that will come in the next 20 years, I think, and make them very attractive as fuel prices continue to rise.

I'm seriously going to look at the Ford Fusion serial hybrid when it comes out. It looks good and should drive decently too.
The Volt is a series hybrid. The various PHEV Energi variants of Ford products (C-Max, now Fusion, you say?) are power split hybrids with a bigger battery pack afaik, akin to a PHEV Prius instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrcooled View Post
Being an early adopter has it's risks. The mitigating factor is that the car meets all of my requirements. The size, features, range, etc. all meet the needs of the house. I don't have to worry about not having a full infrastructure to support my EV like I would with a Hydrogen/CNG/etc. vehicle since I can charge at home.

As more EVs get on the road the availability of charging stations will increase which could potentially allow the EV in my house to become a primary vehicle as opposed to a secondary vehicle. My wife's car will serve all of the needs that we have for the 1% of our household driving that goes beyond the range of the Model S.
I sort of buried it in my above post, but have you explored the Blink charging point map? Below are the metro DC public charging points that you could use in a pinch--not quite the cornucopia of California or the Pac NW I-5 corridor but better than nothing.

http://www.blinknetwork.com/locator.html



With regard to NGVs and filling at home there is an option, the Phill home fueling station:

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/03/...l-station.html

The problem is that you have to drive a Civic GX or a HD pickup, hardly E-Class competitors...
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:29 PM   #69
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Except it doesn't look like a horrible cartoon of a car.
I bet they said the same about the corvette.




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Old 05-29-2012, 03:10 PM   #70
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Isn't there a plug-in hybrid version of the Fusion coming? Wait for one of those.



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Old 05-29-2012, 03:14 PM   #71
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I'd certainly take an EV as I'm an ideal candidate.

40mile round trip commute with mixed city/hwy driving and on Friday I take/pick up the kids at school with lots of sitting in the car queue line. In the 8yrs I've owned my STi I have taken exactly two road trips in it...otherwise it is my daily driver.

My workplace has told me that they are working with the state to install charging stations, but that is years away. In the meantime they offered to charge an EV for free.

But as I said, I'm hoping the Evo XI is going to be more affordable than a Tesla.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:14 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
13 public NGV filling stations exist in the Pacific NW. What's the use of having a quickly refillable car if you can't travel outside the metro area anyway for lack of infrastructure?



8 (yes, eight) public hydrogen filling stations exist in the entire country, of which 0 in the Pacific NW and only 1 is outside the LA metro area:



Add to this limited NGV vehicle availability (Civic GX, big 3 HD pickups, expensive aftermarket conversions), basically no consumer hydrogen fuel cell vehicle availability aside from the for-show Clarity FCX stunt, and valid environmental concerns about NG fracking techniques and I don't see either of these fuels having a vibrant near-term future.

In comparison, EV infrastructure is worlds ahead. Home charging will be dominant (just as NGV drivers could fill up at home), but there's also a fast charger network being built out. Again, using my favored Pac NW as an example, the West Coast Green Highway project states:



Of course, the above is just a promise, easily broken and as of yet unfulfilled in its entirety, but that doesn't detract from the reality that there is a substantial public charging infrastructure already in place, something that neither hydrogen nor NG can boast. Currently installed public charging points:

Yeah, that's why I said in 20 years and specifically mention lack of infrastructure.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:16 PM   #73
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You know some many of the listed charging points are offline, inside very expensive parking garages, or otherwise difficult to access.

My employer bought a Leaf and I asked him about charging in DC and he said it really wasn't worth it. He gets by using a 220V home charger and his wife's prius for long trips.

I think the same could be done with NG cars and a home station.

I'd like to see any energy/pollution analysis to see if EV is beating NG.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:16 PM   #74
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double
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:17 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry View Post
Isn't there a plug-in hybrid version of the Fusion coming? Wait for one of those.



I already said that. It looks much better than the Volt too. Audi may also be producing one that uses a really small rotary engine as the generator. Very small, but they are having an issue with noise due to the high rpm operation.
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