New Forged Prodrive wheels....

[SyCip]

Does anyone have info on these wheels? The webpage (www.prodrive-usa.com) shows a new forged version of the P1 wheel. The price listed is $526.10. Is that per wheel or per set? Are forged wheels (made in Japan) more expensive than cast wheels (made in Italy)?

Thanks for any info.

G

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[judgegavel]

Most forged wheels run $400+ each so thats definitly per wheel, not set. As for Japanese forged wheels vs. Italian cast, well were talkin rims not shoes or handbags so Italian doesent really mean anything, so a forged wheel should almost always be more expensive. You would pretty much take a forged rim over any cast rim they are lighter and much more durable.. I would also choose any forged volk or prodrive (both japanese) over any Italian made forged wheel (does Momo make forged wheels, I know there casts are super heavy, and not made in our lug pattern). Now if you said German wheels well I like BBS's (forged of course) as much as Volk and more than any prodrive Ive seen.

[SyCip]

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I was thinking that Italian built would be more. In th bicycle industry anything Italian is more than Japanese (ie. Campagnolo components versus Shimano components).

Thanks for the clarification.

G

[mrbell]

You would pretty much take a forged rim over any cast rim they are lighter and much more durable..

That's not necessarily true...
Forging allows you to make a rim lighter than a standard cast rim, but that doesn't mean it's going to be stronger. In fact it's probably going to be only as strong, but still lighter... or it could be the otherway, stronger, but not any lighter... also, the properties of forged rims are just different. They're more likely to break apart than bend and keep rolling(if unevenly)
And don't forget about other technologies which are in between forging and casting like flow-forming and edge-rolling(or something like that...
All that said, if I had my 'druthers', I'd go forged... I'm not not that moneyed...

[mch]

^^^^^^^^^^
confusing person.

Forging aligns the granular structure of the metal in a way that makes for a stronger more ductile wheel. Do not confuse forging with hardness, brittleness etc. Those are functions of the anealing process employed.

A quality forged wheel will withstand higher impacts than a cast wheel without shattering/deforming. Because of that, it can be made consideralbly lighter for a given use or considerably stronger for a given weight. This is why knives and axe heads (for example) are forged, not cast.

The equipment and labor needed to create forged wheels is considerably more expensive than cast technology > hence higher cost.

Flow forming and other "intermediate" technology is a means to bring "some" of the benefit of forging at "some" of the cost.

The BBS web site has some interesting information if you are interested.

Have fun.

[judgegavel]

Originally posted by mch
^^^^^^^^^^
confusing person.

Forging aligns the granular structure of the metal in a way that makes for a stronger more ductile wheel. Do not confuse forging with hardness, brittleness etc. Those are functions of the anealing process employed.

A quality forged wheel will withstand higher impacts than a cast wheel without shattering/deforming. Because of that, it can be made consideralbly lighter for a given use or considerably stronger for a given weight. This is why knives and axe heads (for example) are forged, not cast.

The equipment and labor needed to create forged wheels is considerably more expensive than cast technology > hence higher cost.

Flow forming and other "intermediate" technology is a means to bring "some" of the benefit of forging at "some" of the cost.

The BBS web site has some interesting information if you are interested.

Have fun.

Exactly right, couldn't have said it better.

[mrbell]

That was a better way of saying what I was trying to say... but my point was that just because it's forged does not mean it's stronger AND lighter. It could quite easily be just one, or the other because it is taken to the extreme. What can say with a fair amount of certainty, is the deformation resistance per pound is higher...

edit: my real point is don't expect miraculous things based on a buzzword

[SyCip]

That does clear things up quite a bit.

Thanks,

G

[judgegavel]

Originally posted by mrbell
That was a better way of saying what I was trying to say... but my point was that just because it's forged does not mean it's stronger AND lighter. It could quite easily be just one, or the other because it is taken to the extreme. What can say with a fair amount of certainty, is the deformation resistance per pound is higher...

edit: my real point is don't expect miraculous things based on a buzzword

Really because that didnt sound like what you said at all. Forged isnt a buzz word its a word that has described a construction process for metal that has been used for years, and in every way better than cast. Cast was actually invented as a cheap alternative to the forging procces, and I mean in both quality and expense. No matter how you slice it a forged wheel is almost always going to be stronger and lighter than cast. (can you make a forged wheel thats so light that it is weeker than your average cast wheel, well of course but thats never the case) Trying to elude that forged wheels will brake apart when compared to cast wheels bending is comparing apples and oranges the force that would be needed to brake apart almost every forged wheel is much greater of that to bend a cast wheel.

[mrbell]

EVERYTHING is a buzzword on the internet... and especially with cars...
But besides that, I didn't mean to imply that forged wheels are somehow less adequete than cast wheels, what I was trying to say(and I admit that I sometimes do this poorly) is that there is no magic bullet. Too many times I see threads where someone asks a question, as has been asked here, and it gets many responses saying that this is the ultimate-one-true-never-deviates-from-this, answer.
To illustrate my point, you said "You would pretty much take a forged rim over any cast rim they are lighter and much more durable.." and I was just pointing out that if he went and bought a set of 5lbs 18" rims just because they're forged and they cracked on the first speedbump he hit, he would blame you for the lousy advice. I know you didn't mean it that way, and it's actually pretty good advice, but you can't always say "forged is the ultimate-one-true-never-deviates-from-this answer"

[judgegavel]

Thats why I said pretty much, and not always or definitly. Nothing in this world is black and white, and there will always be exceptions to the norm. But forged vs. cast is almost always an economic choice, forged is just better, stronger (pund for pound) and therefor lighter, but more expensive. It really is that simple.