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Old 12-04-2019, 06:31 PM   #1
Keshav
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Lightbulb Hereís how Porsche plans to give electric SUVs snow-conquering grip

This is one step closer to the system I've been asking for. It still has axles, but when we get motors that are small enough to move into the wheel hub we won't need them.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/p...uvs-explained/

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The Porsche Taycan uses one electric motor per axle to enable all-wheel drive, but Porsche is working on a more elaborate way to power all four wheels. The company revealed plans for an electric all-wheel drive system that will use four motors. The system is slated for use in future Porsche electric SUVs.

More motors should equal more power, but that isnít the real reason why Porsche chose this setup. Itís actually because the four-motor system enables more precise control. With two electric motors mounted on each axle, the system can not only precisely distribute power front to back, but also side to side. This enables an advanced form of torque vectoring ó shunting power to one side to help the car turn more easily.

Several automakers already offer torque-vectoring all-wheel drive systems, but those systems work either by applying the brakes to certain wheels, or with mechanical differentials. The advantage of an electronic system, according to Porsche, is that electric motors can react more quickly, and allow finer adjustments, than mechanical setups. Changes to the system can also be made using software, without having to swap out any mechanical components, Porsche noted.

Porsche isnít the first automaker to propose electric torque vectoring. The original Audi E-Tron Quattro concept used two electric motors on the rear axle for torque vectoring, with a third electric motor at the front. However, Audi went with a more conventional system, with one electric motor on each axle, for the E-Tron production model. The Rimac Concept One and Concept Two electric supercars features electric torque vectoring for both axles. If this tech is good enough for those cars ó both of which make over 1,000 horsepower ó it should be good enough for an SUV.

Porsche did not say which vehicle would be the first to get its trick electric all-wheel drive system. The automaker previously said it would launch an electric version of the Macan in 2021, so that would be the first logical opportunity. But itís also possible that Porsche is saving this tech for another, unannounced, electric SUV further down the pipeline. Porsche will also introduce a production version of the Taycan-based Cross Turismo wagon concept, but that car will likely use the same two-motor all-wheel drive system as its sedan sibling.
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Old 12-04-2019, 06:54 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
This is one step closer to the system I've been asking for. It still has axles, but when we get motors that are small enough to move into the wheel hub we won't need them.
I see no future where Porsche adds the unsprung weight of hub motors and destroys the driving characteristics of their cars...

A 4 motor EV sounds like fun though. Especially once the aftermarket hacks the controller...
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:27 PM   #3
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Honestly electric is the future for auto sports as well

The amount of torque you can generate instantly with electric motors is crazy.

But that's also a current struggle. Nothing can withstand the amount of torque and pressure being applied.
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:38 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
I see no future where Porsche adds the unsprung weight of hub motors and destroys the driving characteristics of their cars...

A 4 motor EV sounds like fun though. Especially once the aftermarket hacks the controller...
When you reconfigure the hub and wheel design to incorporate the motor, it isn't that heavy at all.



yes, this is my current motorcycle crush.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:39 AM   #5
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Bikes will need 3-5 minute charges and 150 mile range. It’s gonna be a minute and you’ll have to pry my literbikes from my cold dead hands.
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:45 PM   #6
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yeah, i'm not giving up my Ferrari-designed engine, but I look forward to adding an EV motorcycle to the stable.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
When you reconfigure the hub and wheel design to incorporate the motor, it isn't that heavy at all.



yes, this is my current motorcycle crush.
cool render. Bikes are totally different and space is definitely more of a challenge when you have to fit a large motor and batteries on a small chassis. There could be more advantages to a hub motor on a bike, but the unsprung weight will still absolutely have a huge impact on how the thing handles.

Wheel hub motors might be cool for something like a golf car or a corolla, but a Porsche? Or some sort of other performance based car? I just don't see it happening. There is little drawback to putting the motor on the body and including a short axle, but the unsprung weight is a huge drawback.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:26 PM   #8
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No rear brakes?
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:53 PM   #9
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No rear brakes?


Donít need it with regen.
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Old 12-05-2019, 07:51 PM   #10
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Wheel hub motors might be cool for something like a golf car or a corolla, but a Porsche? Or some sort of other performance based car? I just don't see it happening. There is little drawback to putting the motor on the body and including a short axle, but the unsprung weight is a huge drawback.
the article is about Porsche SUVs and I'm talking about a 4x4 system that lets you dispense of axles.

also, the motorcycle isn't a render. it's just under $30k if you get it in Europe.



https://electrek.co/2019/11/05/rmk-e...ic-motorcycle/
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:25 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
the article is about Porsche SUVs and I'm talking about a 4x4 system that lets you dispense of axles.
And Porsche doesn't care how their SUV's handle? Are you suggesting this for an off road 4x4, or a Porsche? Kinda confused now...
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:48 AM   #12
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Donít need it with regen.
False
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:05 AM   #13
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False


Regenerative braking is pretty good. Likely wouldnít lockup a tire but with the majority of your stopping power on the front wheel, I can see this as possible.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:21 AM   #14
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Regenerative braking is pretty good. Likely wouldnít lockup a tire but with the majority of your stopping power on the front wheel, I can see this as possible.
Tesla still has real functional brakes at all 4 corners because of hard emergency brake situations. I wouldn't want emergency braking to rely on front brakes on a bike.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:12 PM   #15
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These EV bike mfr's are clowns. You absolutely need rear brake in panic stops. I have a few a year in the twisties where I need full front and rear brakes. Everything it's got. So far these stupid EV bikes are just commuters. Nobody has made a proper sporting application of the bikes sans the Moto E bikes which are race bikes. Cost is probably too prohibitive to make a street version yet.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:47 PM   #16
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And Porsche doesn't care how their SUV's handle? Are you suggesting this for an off road 4x4, or a Porsche? Kinda confused now...
I'm talking about a 4x4 system that would work on a Jeep or other off road vehicle. Porsche's system is just the latest step towards the one I've been talking about for years. My idea requires a few more tech things to improve, but we will see it one day.

think about it. without axles you could have a 6x6 Jeep or an 8x8 and it would crawl over the trail like a spider.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I'm talking about a 4x4 system that would work on a Jeep or other off road vehicle. Porsche's system is just the latest step towards the one I've been talking about for years. My idea requires a few more tech things to improve, but we will see it one day.

think about it. without axles you could have a 6x6 Jeep or an 8x8 and it would crawl over the trail like a spider.
Fair enough. Hub motors would probably make a ton of sense for something like a jeep... something for crawling.

the fact that the discussion was sparked by a porsche had me confused. S'all good now.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:56 PM   #18
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Tesla still has real functional brakes at all 4 corners because of hard emergency brake situations. I wouldn't want emergency braking to rely on front brakes on a bike.
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These EV bike mfr's are clowns. You absolutely need rear brake in panic stops. I have a few a year in the twisties where I need full front and rear brakes. Everything it's got. So far these stupid EV bikes are just commuters. Nobody has made a proper sporting application of the bikes sans the Moto E bikes which are race bikes. Cost is probably too prohibitive to make a street version yet.
Exactly both of these points. Or realistically, you need brakes for every day driving. Relying on Regen as the sole method to slow and stop you is beyond stupid. Relying on Regen for all your braking means youíve calculated every time how much time you need to stop and know when lights are going to change, know that a vehicle is never going to get in front of you while you slow down forcing you to slow down even faster.

If there is a single person who thinks brakes are not needed because of Regen, please never buy an EV and put others at risk, ever.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:30 PM   #19
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75% of braking is the front of a vehicle and it can go up to 100% during a panic stop, so yes, use a traditional disc. You'll notice that the bike I've linked above has double discs for the front wheel.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
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75% of braking is the front of a vehicle and it can go up to 100% during a panic stop, so yes, use a traditional disc. You'll notice that the bike I've linked above has double discs for the front wheel.


This is exactly what I meant in my previous post. Reading it again, I can see that it looks like I meant regen brakes front and rear, which isnít the case.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:50 PM   #21
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Front braking can certainly be 100% front in an emergency stop. depending on the situation though, it may be beneficial to not go so heavy on the front. At least on the surface, I wouldn't be comfortable with just regen as the only means of stopping the rear wheel.
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:12 PM   #22
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75% of braking is the front of a vehicle and it can go up to 100% during a panic stop, so yes, use a traditional disc. You'll notice that the bike I've linked above has double discs for the front wheel.
Totally disagree. Motorcycle Riding 101. If you lock the front brake you release it (don't wanna highside), if you lock the rear you hold that mafk down until you stop completely. You need a rear brake, period, on a motorcycle for this reason alone.

I've got ABS on one of my bikes and it takes longer to stop when ABS is engaged. If what you said was true, MotoGP bikes would have no rear brake on them. They are the most sophisticated motorcycles on the planet. If anything, rear brakes have become even more important to them, with most of them with thumb actuated rear brake lever on the left clip on.
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:53 PM   #23
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Pre, you're talking about a slightly different thing. I'm specifically referencing weight transfer under braking which is the reason brake bias is set up the way it is.
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