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Old 12-09-2019, 05:00 PM   #51
subyski
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What actual chassis upgrades were made to the S209? All I can find described are front and rear draw stiffeners and strut tower brace. The BRZ tS has similar additional draw stiffeners and a v-brace but there was no additional crash safety issues with those models.

The other big S209 difference are the larger front fenders that are different stamped pieces. I doubt that would cause massive issues.

The base STI had an intercooler sprayer for the first few years.

I think a few more bushings were upgraded but the base STI have seen upgrades over the years too.

Dampers are upgraded but nothing unique in their designs.

The carbon roof and wing was already done on the RA.
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Old 12-09-2019, 05:27 PM   #52
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The draw stiffeners on the BRZ tS is a good point.

The most invasive and impactful item that STI may have installed was likely the HKS turbocharger, followed by the injectors, intake & associated tuning.

Subaru most likely wanted to market the car as manufactured by STI and sell the S badge to the US. It seems like they could have simply called it the Type RA-R or such and probably went through much less hassle. Maybe they had already started far enough down the homologation path before they decided to pull the hand-built engine.

The main chassis/suspension differences are:
  • "STI tuned" Bilsteins & 10mm lowering springs
  • Flexible front upper tower bar
  • Flexible front lower draw stiffener
  • Front lower crossmember support
  • Flexible rear draw stiffener & guard bar
  • Rear lateral link set
  • '15-17 WRX/STI 20mm rear sway bar
  • Misc. STI bushings & bolts
And of course the wider BBS wheels, wider front fenders, carbon fiber roof/spoiler, etc.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 12-09-2019 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 12-09-2019, 05:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
And? it is what it is... at least there's somewhat of an explanation why things cost the way they do. Its different enough imo... Whether people like it and its cost is always a crap shoot.

Sure you can mod an STI or Type-RA and on paper have the same thing, but you're also not homologating it. I'd love to see the final cost of people modding their STIs to meet the same parts/power/warranty PLUS ther time to do it properly/reliably PLUS whatever costs are associated with homologation and red tape. Let's also see the re-sale value of a modded STI vs. the S209 stock. The S209 is looking reasonable imo
I can "mod" my RA with all OEM parts; I'd love to see that cause any depreciation on my 7 mile RA.

The amount of mods required is subjective, as I'm not a huge fan of the aero; I do like the rear draw stiffener, but most of the rest of the parts have been available from STi Japan all along.

I'm not hating on the car, but it's not like I'm trying to turn a base STi into an S209. Heck, my RA roof and rear wing alone are over $10k in parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subyski View Post
I doubt homologation was just done to justify its price. Subaru already charged $50k for the RA. If homologation wasn't an issue, they could have still charged $64k for the S209 since the S series cars were such forbidden fruit to U.S. customers. That alone is enough to move 209 units.



The S209 will probably hold its value if you can keep it stock. A few have been purchased by shops so they have been messed with already. I recall one was in an accident already. And there are probably a few that will be tracked and abused. Then there will inevitably be a few that are modified too. So less unmolested samples are out there.
I'm sure it'll hold its value well, it's the first S model like the RA was the first "Type" out here - at least in a long time. I think the S209 prices are ridiculous, but hey, perhaps it'll inflate my RA's value a bit too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Why didn't they port install all these parts in the US? When they realized they weren't going to hand build the engines it was just a matter of shipping out the cars and the parts and assembling them in the US. I can't imagine anything on the S209 being out of spec range for safety tests. Subaru offers lips, side skirt and rear valance kits for the base STI and WRX. The fenders are not sticking out past the mirror caps. The tires are not sticking out past the fenders. All the catalyzers are in place and the engine output doesn't even exceed the Esx Red Dragon 2015 limited run STI which was CARB exempt.

Nothing about this car makes any goddam sense to a rational person. It's cool to the kool aid drinkers, but outside of that, with no hand assembled and blueprinted engine, this car is at best a port installed option bolt on special that makes less power than the Red Dragon.
Thank you, I concur with most all of this.

The S209 isn't a radical enough of a departure, from even the RA, to warrant homologation. The engine blocks are the same, the chassis is effectively the same and the vast majority of the differences are purely bolt-on.

To me, the value of the S209 is the complete package and exclusivity, but I struggle to see even $65k's worth of value, especially knowing it has the same block as my $55k Type RA ($55k was what I paid for my RA, thus $55k RA - I know MSRP was roughly $50k).
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Old 12-09-2019, 05:33 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
The draw stiffeners on the BRZ tS is a good point.

The most invasive and impactful item that STI may have installed was likely the HKS turbocharger, followed by the injectors, intake & associated tuning.

Subaru most likely wanted to market the car as manufactured by STI and sell the S badge to the US. It seems like they could have simply called it the Type RA-R or such and probably went through much less hassle. Maybe they had already started far enough down the homologation path before they decided to pull the hand-built engine.

The main chassis/suspension differences are:
  • "STI tuned" Bilsteins & 10mm lowering springs
  • Flexible front upper tower bar
  • Flexible front lower draw stiffener
  • Front lower crossmember support
  • Flexible rear draw stiffener & guard bar
  • Rear lateral link set
  • '15-17 WRX/STI rear sway bar
  • Misc. STI bushings & bolts
And of course the wider BBS wheels, wider front fenders, carbon fiber roof/spoiler, etc.

That's really my rub with the S209, in a nutshell; aside form the injectors, turbo and tune - almost all of the other said parts have been available going back years from STi Japan. That's aside from the last minute removal of the "forged pistons" which took me out of the hunt for an S209 altogether.

I've said it several times, the S209 is a Type RA with the STi part's catalog thrown at it and a couple other items to try and make it stand out as being unique.

I think the only thing(s) I'm after off of the S209 is simply the rear draw stiffener.
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Old 12-09-2019, 11:21 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SatinWhitePearl View Post
The entire "homologation" point was designed to help justify the S209's asking price, period.

It's a glorified Type RA, FFS they even share the same block.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Spending big bucks on homologating STI as a standalone manufacturer makes no sense unless there's a serious plan to recoup some of that money by selling a lot more cars.
I'm looking forward to Crosstrek, Forester, Legacy or BRZ getting the full-on STI treatment; otherwise, again, IMO, that whole exercise has been a huge waste of money.

This. I thought it was said/read somewhere that this now opens up the ability to bring more "STI" to the states. Which was something "promised" by SOA. This could be that first step?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I didn't want to bring up Levorg because, frankly, it's a sore subject as far as I'm concerned.
Federalizing the "regular" Levorg as Subaru is probably cheaper than the whole STI homologation effort; then we can argue whether or not sales figures for Levorg would have made it worthwhile. I think it would, but I'm obviously biased .
Looks like you answered your own question before the end of your statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Why didn't they port install all these parts in the US? When they realized they weren't going to hand build the engines it was just a matter of shipping out the cars and the parts and assembling them in the US. I can't imagine anything on the S209 being out of spec range for safety tests. Subaru offers lips, side skirt and rear valance kits for the base STI and WRX. The fenders are not sticking out past the mirror caps. The tires are not sticking out past the fenders. All the catalyzers are in place and the engine output doesn't even exceed the Esx Red Dragon 2015 limited run STI which was CARB exempt.

Nothing about this car makes any goddam sense to a rational person. It's cool to the kool aid drinkers, but outside of that, with no hand assembled and blueprinted engine, this car is at best a port installed option bolt on special that makes less power than the Red Dragon.
The front lips are dealer installed.
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Old 12-10-2019, 12:12 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
The front lips are dealer installed.
And then
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Old 12-16-2019, 01:47 PM   #57
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installing larger turbo chargers and high flow fuel injectors and fuel pumps at "the port"(distribution center where cars are sent after they come off the cargo ship), would be ridiculous and costly. Its a lot different than installing a short throw shifter or front lips, or things like emblems LOL.. The S209 upgrades are More labor intensive, the ECU needs to be retuned, there are hazardous fluids involved and the list goes on.

The fact that the Subaru Technica International facility installs the engine upgrades tunes the car and also installs all the chassis suspension and body aero and alignment IS the point lol.

A hand built engine(after Subaru had already engineered an improved hypereutectic strengthened piston for all STI's) would have been even more costly and push the price of the S209 over $70,000. Forged con Rods, forged crank and stronger pistons that were already in production and proven, and sounds like they put them through some rigorous testing if they concluded they were more durable than forged replacements.

Can't complain IMHO

Last edited by NighthawkSTI; 12-16-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
installing larger turbo chargers and high flow fuel injectors and fuel pumps at "the port"(distribution center where cars are sent after they come off the cargo ship), would be ridiculous and costly. Its a lot different than installing a short throw shifter or front lips, or things like emblems LOL.. The S209 upgrades are More labor intensive, the ECU needs to be retuned, there are hazardous fluids involved and the list goes on.
Why can't Subaru's assembly process install the turbo charger, injectors, fuel pump, and revised ECU? Why install the factory components and then ship the car to STI for them to only disassemble the standard parts and reinstall the new parts?

Last edited by WRXnick16; 12-16-2019 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:05 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Why can't Subaru's assembly process install the turbo charger, injectors, fuel pump, and revised ECU? Why install the factory components and then ship the car to STI from them to only disassemble the standard parts and reinstall the new parts?
Internal corporate accounting mechanisms, would be my guess. STI would reimburse Subaru Corporate for the engines and chassis. That's how interdivisional costs work at my employer anyway.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:10 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Why install the factory components and then ship the car to STI from them to only disassemble the standard parts and reinstall the new parts?
That's something that really hit me after watching the RallySport Direct S209 video; STi has effectively taken a Type RA and modified it to be something more. That's cool, no doubt, but it also introduces the human error element into it. It's not a stock car, it's a modified car being sold as new car. The bolts are turned by a human, not a robotic machine. The leaky oil line and chipped paint on the front bumper 'drove' the point home for me.

The S209 is a beast though, here's to hoping it's the first of many more to come.

Last edited by SatinWhitePearl; 12-16-2019 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 09:50 PM   #61
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Thanks for the info. Very fascinating stuff. Now bring the 2-door 22B back and we'll all be happy
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Old 12-16-2019, 11:09 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ejicon View Post
Thanks for the info. Very fascinating stuff. Now bring the 2-door 22B back and we'll all be happy
Now bring the 5 door back and we’ll all be happy .
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Old 12-16-2019, 11:31 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by WRX4US View Post
Now bring the 5 door back and we’ll all be happy .
Like this left hand drive Levorg?



Not going to happen in the U.S., due to lack of demand.
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:35 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
Like this left hand drive Levorg?



Not going to happen in the U.S., due to lack of demand.
Demand for this car exists here in the US. Lots of people I know would have one in their driveway, including myself, if it were here.

Would they sell more Levorgs than than BRZs? Yes.
Would they sell more Levorgs than STis? Also yes.

Adding on to that... I firmly believe they'd sell more Levorgs than BRZs and STis, combined.

Subarus misrepresenting the term "lack of demand" as something else entirely. They're simply dismissing the market that does exist and know the product would sell just fine. They simply either don't want it here, or, Subaru/Fuji know they cannot meet the production out of the current plant and would cause issues in the product chain.

But to cite "lack of demand" is simply bullcrap.

--kC
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:06 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Demand for this car exists here in the US. Lots of people I know would have one in their driveway, including myself, if it were here.

Would they sell more Levorgs than than BRZs? Yes.
Would they sell more Levorgs than STis? Also yes.

Adding on to that... I firmly believe they'd sell more Levorgs than BRZs and STis, combined.

Subarus misrepresenting the term "lack of demand" as something else entirely. They're simply dismissing the market that does exist and know the product would sell just fine. They simply either don't want it here, or, Subaru/Fuji know they cannot meet the production out of the current plant and would cause issues in the product chain.

But to cite "lack of demand" is simply bullcrap.

--kC
I dont get the fascination with the levorg. The U.S has the crosstrek, the Outback, the Ascent and the Impreza, so I agree there is demand for a levorg but I think that gets quite diluted by the other offerings Subaru already has here.

*edit …...and the forester, so 5 five door options to choose from in the U.S, why do we need 6??

Last edited by NighthawkSTI; 12-17-2019 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:25 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Demand for this car exists here in the US. Lots of people I know would have one in their driveway, including myself, if it were here.

Would they sell more Levorgs than than BRZs? Yes.
Would they sell more Levorgs than STis? Also yes.

Adding on to that... I firmly believe they'd sell more Levorgs than BRZs and STis, combined.

Subarus misrepresenting the term "lack of demand" as something else entirely. They're simply dismissing the market that does exist and know the product would sell just fine. They simply either don't want it here, or, Subaru/Fuji know they cannot meet the production out of the current plant and would cause issues in the product chain.

But to cite "lack of demand" is simply bullcrap.

--kC
I'm sure if demand was in the 5000+ per year range as oppose to 100's, they would bring it over. However, that doesn't appear to the be case after Subaru market research.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:29 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Demand for this car exists here in the US. Lots of people I know would have one in their driveway, including myself, if it were here.

Would they sell more Levorgs than than BRZs? Yes.
Would they sell more Levorgs than STis? Also yes.

Adding on to that... I firmly believe they'd sell more Levorgs than BRZs and STis, combined.

Subarus misrepresenting the term "lack of demand" as something else entirely. They're simply dismissing the market that does exist and know the product would sell just fine. They simply either don't want it here, or, Subaru/Fuji know they cannot meet the production out of the current plant and would cause issues in the product chain.

But to cite "lack of demand" is simply bullcrap.

--kC
And how many Imprezas, Crosstreks or Outbacks would you sell less if they sold the Levorg in the US?

They've got to keep SIA rolling.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:49 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
Like this left hand drive Levorg?



Not going to happen in the U.S., due to lack of demand.
Well, I demand it!!

Subaru of Japan, ... do you hear that. I demand you bring the Levorg to ME!

If you don't, if you refuse to listen to your bigget most loyal base? My '19 Impreza is the last Subaru I will buy.

You have taunted me long enough. No longer. Years waiting for a WRX while others got it. Same with the STI. But even after you finally condescended to offer your most prized withhold, the S-line's EJ209... what did you do? You stiffed us. You promised one thing, then delivered something less. You scammed the unworthy United States domestic market.

Then to rub it in, to make sure your revenge was sweet, it wasn't enough to lie and cheat with the S209 for the privileged few... no, you have to stick it to the lowly commoner base, ME, by offering the Levorg to everyone else except here.

P.S. I am serious. For 28 years I've believed in you. Bought whatever you offered, including the EJs, without question. Sampled almost every product line. And have never once complained about anything Subaru.

Until now. Now I'm mad, at you... again.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:55 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
I'm sure if demand was in the 5000+ per year range as oppose to 100's, they would bring it over. However, that doesn't appear to the be case after Subaru market research.
You should read up on the dinky markets this thing is sold in, one being the Philippines. There are no excuses except for Booby pamper wearers.
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:05 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
You should read up on the dinky markets this thing is sold in, one being the Philippines. There are no excuses except for Booby pamper wearers.
Clearly Subaru disagrees with you, otherwise they would have offered the Levorg here. With that being said, i would love to see it here, but i'm realistic.
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:15 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Demand for this car exists here in the US. Lots of people I know would have one in their driveway, including myself, if it were here.

Would they sell more Levorgs than than BRZs? Yes.
Would they sell more Levorgs than STis? Also yes.

Adding on to that... I firmly believe they'd sell more Levorgs than BRZs and STis, combined.

Subarus misrepresenting the term "lack of demand" as something else entirely. They're simply dismissing the market that does exist and know the product would sell just fine. They simply either don't want it here, or, Subaru/Fuji know they cannot meet the production out of the current plant and would cause issues in the product chain.

But to cite "lack of demand" is simply bullcrap.

--kC

Whoa. Wait. Stop the train. Did I miss something? When has SOA even mentioned the Levorg let alone said they wouldn't bring it because of demand?
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:24 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
I dont get the fascination with the levorg. The U.S has the crosstrek, the Outback, the Ascent and the Impreza, so I agree there is demand for a levorg but I think that gets quite diluted by the other offerings Subaru already has here.

*edit …...and the forester, so 5 five door options to choose from in the U.S, why do we need 6??
I can't speak for everyone, but i can speak for me, having come from a wrx wagon (06, when it was actually a wagon, not a hatch)

impreza hatch = anemic engine and only a hatchback not a wagon (i.e. less cargo space than a wagon)
crosstrek = high ride height impreza hatch with anemic engine
outback = high ride height, anemic engine
Forester = high ride height box with anemic engine

levorg = closest wrx wagon replacement in Subarus arsenal - low/normal ride height wagon.

I could have summed that all up by saying "because turbo wagon" but I figured the less is more approach wouldn't quite get my point across.
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Old 12-17-2019, 01:10 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Whoa. Wait. Stop the train. Did I miss something? When has SOA even mentioned the Levorg let alone said they wouldn't bring it because of demand?
Dull Tommy Boy has said it quite a few times. No Levorg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
I can't speak for everyone, but i can speak for me, having come from a wrx wagon (06, when it was actually a wagon, not a hatch)

impreza hatch = anemic engine and only a hatchback not a wagon (i.e. less cargo space than a wagon)
crosstrek = high ride height impreza hatch with anemic engine
outback = high ride height, anemic engine
Forester = high ride height box with anemic engine

levorg = closest wrx wagon replacement in Subarus arsenal - low/normal ride height wagon.

I could have summed that all up by saying "because turbo wagon" but I figured the less is more approach wouldn't quite get my point across.
Ditto. All of it. I had an '02 Wagon, well known at the time in some circles.

To add on, I could use just that extra bit of space in the back hatch than currently offered in the Impreza hatch that I currently own.

--kC
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Old 12-17-2019, 01:22 PM   #74
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Dull Tommy Boy has said it quite a few times. No Levorg.

Definitely something I missed, then. Don't remember any links to official statements.
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Old 12-17-2019, 01:32 PM   #75
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They'll bend over backwards and move heaven and earth to sell 209 special back channel STIs. If you can't see that SOA is adamantly opposed to justify selling a WRX wagon in this country then arguing is pointless. We've been through this.
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