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08-04-2019, 12:51 PM | #1 | ||
Scooby Guru
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RMIC
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Colorado to join CARB in 2023
Colorado to become a CARB state in 2023: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/07/30/...emission-2023/
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For context here are the other states that follow CARB rules: Quote:
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08-04-2019, 05:43 PM | #2 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 101457
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NWIC
Vehicle:Czar of Sweet Dance Moves |
Good.
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08-07-2019, 10:58 AM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
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I just wonder why all those northern states totally ignore all those oil burner and even coal and wood heating systems that run 24/7 with zero abatement or catalysts ? Is this about clean air and particulate removable ? The way CA is going I would not let them make rules for anything but themselves. I think it's more an anti auto agenda and clean air needs real consideration.
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08-07-2019, 11:15 AM | #4 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
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NWIC
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08-07-2019, 11:17 AM | #5 | |
Scooby Guru
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Yup they’ve totally ignored this https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/planning/sip/...uidelines.docx |
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08-07-2019, 11:29 AM | #6 | |
Papi Chulo
Moderator Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:... 2017 BMW M2 2017 F-150 |
Quote:
Growing up, the joke in Los Angeles was that people didn’t know there was mountains around them due to how heavy the smog and pollution was. You may have heard of this particular republican, some called him the Governator others called him Arnold Schwarzenegger but he is the governor who created and initiated the clean air act. Rather rapidly the pollution levels dropped and people were starting to see the mountains again. I’m not sure what your hard on is against trying to have cleaner running vehicles. This should legit be a common ****ing sense thing. The ONLY thing I could see disagreeing with is that California has sometimes placed unrealistic goals within a certain timeline. However, that’s has forced auto manufacturers to try their damn hardest to achieve those goals and they re evaluate when they are closer. Looks like you also don’t pay attention to California news, which is understandable. But to directly knock down your argument, California is considering banning installation of natural gas into new homes in an effort to cut down gas usage. I think you might need to do some researching and also come to grip with reality. This isn’t a matter of being some tree hugging liberal (I’m not, most of us are not) but it’s about having common ****ing sense that we should work towards having a cleaner environment. Go ahead and move to Los Angeles, Salt Lake City in the winter or any city that suffers from smog pollution and tell me we don’t need to make an effort to make things better. Maybe try to see things from outside your Local Bubble. |
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08-07-2019, 11:32 AM | #7 |
Scooby Newbie
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If CARB is really about emissions, why don't they do a sniffer test and be done with it?
As long as I'm not driving a race car on the road, why do my modifications matter? If the gasses coming out of my tail pipe are clean enough, why does it matter that I run an AOS? Hell, wouldn't an AOS result in cleaner emissions due to less oil burning? If someone can give me a legitimate answer to why CARB is so concerned with every little hose and solenoid that doesn't have something to do with making money, I'll be surprised. |
08-07-2019, 12:03 PM | #8 | |
Papi Chulo
Moderator Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:... 2017 BMW M2 2017 F-150 |
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Can you guarantee that you’ll never drive your race car on the road? If so, then why would you even register it in the first place? Can you guarantee all the other people driving around in their catless cars will also not drive on the road and only for track usage? No, no you can’t and we know that the overwhelming majority, probably 99% of people with modified cars drive them on the street and not for track use only. CARB pretty much applies a blanketed requirements such as no modification to factory emission control, must meet a certain threshold for pollutants, gas mileage, etc. If you really think CARB is about making the government money, you’re foolish. Higher mpg vehicles = less tax revenue for states. But yes, let’s all cry a river about how awful it is that the governments places regulations on pollution and mpg ratings. I sure do hate that my truck runs cleaner and gets low to mid 20mpg while outperforming v8’s from 5-10 years ago. Let’s turn the tables for a minute. Give me 3 legitimate reasons why CARB should not exist and we shouldn’t move towards cleaner vehicles with improved fuel economy. |
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08-07-2019, 12:17 PM | #9 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 183032
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NESIC
Location: CT
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Current wood burning emission standards are 4.5g of smoke per hour of use, in 2020 that goes to 2.0g of smoke per hour of use (EPA Phase II). There are other particulate requirements as well, and although the EPA doesn't specifically require a catalytic converter on stoves sold, good luck meeting the requirements without one. Note: California only allows EPA Phase II compliant wood stoves to be sold currently (2.0g/h), so they are stricter than the rest of the country (until 2020). Heat also doesn't run "24/7" heating season in my area is late October/early November to early/late March (New England, specifically CT); light heating required in the beginning and end of the season, heavy heat usage is Mid-December Through February. You can look up heating & degree day information if you wish to educate yourself further, but we've been having heat waves since June and I sure haven't been trying to heat my house. 3 cords of seasoned hard wood roughly equals 2.5 tons of coal, or 510 gallons of No.2 fuel oil; that is about 21,000 kWh of electricity, which would be required to heat the average well insulated house in my area with electricity through a typical heating season; if it's an older house or has lighter insulation and/or cheap windows, then heaven help the owner. My current electricity usage is just under 600kWh per month (slightly more in the summer for cooling, & Dec/Jan for Christmas lights), even if the heating was spread equally across five months that would be an increase of 4,200kWh per month for five months straight. If everyone in New England switched to electric instead of coal/oil/wood, the seasonal demand on the grid would be insane. Now mix in the added demand of an EV (significantly less than a heating system) @15k miles per year is about 5,400kWh of demand per year or 450kWh per month, double that if it's a two car household. Another important factor of course, is money. At the low end you are paying $0.20 per kWh in CT ($0.08 for electricity, $0.12 for distribution), what that means is the 4,800kWh per month for heat and regular usage in the winter months will cost the average person $960/month, and nearly $5,700 annually ($120 x 7 months + $960 x 5 months). That is ignoring an EV or two instead of gas burners. Solar you say? A 44,000 watt system would be required to meet the average demand. That's about 138 panels (65"x39"), or 2,430 square feet of panel, or roughly a 50 foot by 50 foot square of panels (butted up edge to edge). |
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08-07-2019, 12:37 PM | #10 |
Scooby Specialist
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oh man. This just paves the way for California emissions here in Colorado.
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08-07-2019, 12:51 PM | #11 |
Scooby Guru
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08-07-2019, 01:01 PM | #12 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: Fort Lupton, CO
Vehicle:2012 STi SWP |
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"This agreement will ensure that Coloradans have access to the range of clean car choices that are increasingly available to consumers in other states," said Colorado Transportation Department Executive Director Shoshana Lew. What will be interesting is that the majority of the state has no emissions requirements. I live in Weld County, and its heavily Republican/Red, and their dislike for Polis is extreme. We have no emissions in the majority of the county due to it being a rural farming county. |
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08-07-2019, 01:37 PM | #13 | |
Papi Chulo
Moderator Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:... 2017 BMW M2 2017 F-150 |
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I’ll digress before this becomes too political. |
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08-07-2019, 01:42 PM | #14 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
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RMIC
Location: Fort Lupton, CO
Vehicle:2012 STi SWP |
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Hell my house was vibrating enough to make me think we were having an earthquake(never experienced one before, Lived in Colorado my entire life) and it was from the fracking. |
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08-07-2019, 01:54 PM | #15 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
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NWIC
Location: snoco wa
Vehicle:135i vert fast leaf |
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WA state follows CARB rules. For us, that just means that the vehicles sold here need to meet those standards at the time of sale. We don't have the CARB nazi pulling people onto ramps on the side of the road to look for modifications. In fact, we don't have any vehicle inspections or emissions testing if you have a vehicle newer than 2009, and I think they're starting to phase that out for older cars, likely in an effort to not over penalize those with limited resources who can only afford old cars. Because while lots of righties want to look at WA and say we're uber liberal, our tax system is one of the most regressive in the nation, significantly favoring people who make a ton of money. One reason why lots of rich people who want to shelter their money from taxes live here... i digress. |
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08-07-2019, 02:24 PM | #16 | |||||
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 503595
Join Date: Jun 2019
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SCIC
Location: Los Angeles
Vehicle:2002 WRX Silver |
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08-07-2019, 03:02 PM | #17 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: snoco wa
Vehicle:135i vert fast leaf |
Quote:
Joe Dirt who works at the local muffler shop making aftermarket downpipes is almost certainly not a licensed engineer and does not have the equipment or sophistication to make sure what they're doing meets those regulations. But large manufacturers do have that ability. And there's a process in place for their products to be approved. (https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/aftermkt.htm) If you purchased a downpipe that wasn't carb certified, how would they know your car met the requirements? Run a test on your car, and then what, give you some sticker? If you're already messing with your car, chances are you're gonna mess with it more. So you need to keep getting re-certified? And the guberment is supposed to just deal with your requests for free? No. They're going to get manufacturers pay for CARB testing and put CARB labels on their products. |
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08-07-2019, 04:57 PM | #18 | |
Scooby Newbie
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Location: Oregon
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08-07-2019, 05:31 PM | #19 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 67807
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MAIC
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There are different types of pollution as per exhaust regulation in Cali.
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08-07-2019, 05:51 PM | #20 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 92634
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RMIC
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You should know from my post history that I’m very much in favor of CARB regulations being adopted. The way I read it is that as of model year 2023 cars will have to meet CARB emissions standards for sale in CO. That 2021 and 2022 model year ZEVs will give credits in CARB’s system to the manufacturers to bank forward wouldn’t make any sense were the whole regime not adopted. |
08-07-2019, 06:27 PM | #21 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
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NWIC
Location: snoco wa
Vehicle:135i vert fast leaf |
Quote:
either way, it will have basically zero effect on the average consumer, and depending on the way CO chooses to enforce the regulations after sale, it might have no impact on tuners either... as is the case in WA state, since we have literally nobody checking up on whether or not our emissions systems are working. Legislature here is relying on the fact that check engine lights come on and people are taking their cars to the shop to get fixed... |
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08-07-2019, 07:07 PM | #22 | |
Papi Chulo
Moderator Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:... 2017 BMW M2 2017 F-150 |
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08-07-2019, 07:43 PM | #23 | |||
Scooby Guru
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I found the proposed rule, and it seems pretty clear that it's for CARB emissions standards, too:
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Another bit specifies that emissions control system warranties will match those offered in CA: Quote:
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08-08-2019, 12:12 PM | #24 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 198376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Delaware
Vehicle:23 RAM 1500 diesel BMW ///M4 23' C8 23' |
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08-08-2019, 12:36 PM | #25 |
Scooby Specialist
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Location: A car lounge in the midwest
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All this tree hugging in the USA while ignoring the pollution in India and nearby them.. pretty much useless from global scale.
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