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Old 08-27-2011, 11:56 PM   #2076
LittleBlueGT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
Code:
RPM    IRPM    ISPS    ISMS    MIPW
Calc    RPM/2    IRPM/60    ISPS/1000    1/ISMS
1000.00    500.00    8.33    0.008333    120.00
1500.00    750.00    12.50    0.012500    80.00
2000.00    1000.00    16.67    0.016667    60.00
2500.00    1250.00    20.83    0.020833    48.00
3000.00    1500.00    25.00    0.025000    40.00
3500.00    1750.00    29.17    0.029167    34.29
4000.00    2000.00    33.33    0.033333    30.00
4500.00    2250.00    37.50    0.037500    26.67
5000.00    2500.00    41.67    0.041667    24.00
5500.00    2750.00    45.83    0.045833    21.82
6000.00    3000.00    50.00    0.050000    20.00
6500.00    3250.00    54.17    0.054167    18.46
7000.00    3500.00    58.33    0.058333    17.14
7500.00    3750.00    62.50    0.062500    16.00
And I think you are wrong. Why can't someone else join in here?????

Please do this math and either confirm or prove I am wrong. (this is bugging me a lot)

At 6000 rpm you say there is 20ms IPW total time during the intake stroke alone. That means that on every rev there is 40ms total time. (80 ms total for 4 strokes which is 2 revs)

1 rev/40ms = 1500 rpm

You are off by a factor of 4.


I am convinced you have this 100% wrong. I am sorry about that, but I do think it is true.


PLEASE READ THE MATH I PUT OUT, AND SEE.

I would actually love to be wrong. Maybe I will have a duuuuuuuuuuuuh moment, maybe you you will, but I do want this solved.

Thanks.
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Old 08-28-2011, 02:35 AM   #2077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
And I think you are wrong. Why can't someone else join in here?????

Please do this math and either confirm or prove I am wrong. (this is bugging me a lot)

At 6000 rpm you say there is 20ms IPW total time during the intake stroke alone. That means that on every rev there is 40ms total time. (80 ms total for 4 strokes which is 2 revs)

1 rev/40ms = 1500 rpm

You are off by a factor of 4.


I am convinced you have this 100% wrong. I am sorry about that, but I do think it is true.


PLEASE READ THE MATH I PUT OUT, AND SEE.

I would actually love to be wrong. Maybe I will have a duuuuuuuuuuuuh moment, maybe you you will, but I do want this solved.

Thanks.
I am trying man. Ok at your first example of 6k, you have 0.05 intake strokes per millisecond, not the other way around. You don't have 5ms of intake stroke time @ 6k (It takes longer than that for the entire intake stroke). To calculate the amount of intake stroke time, take the inverse which is 20ms. This is why our cars need high flowing injectors compared to non multi point sequential fuel injected vehicles. They are off 3/4 of the time compared to what you are used to from previous experiences with simultaneous fuel injection cars (older tech). Batch mode is still used on many V8's however. Many domestic V8 modders upgrade their injectors with WRX injectors because their cars either operate in batch mode or simultaneous (which is what you are assuming how our injectors work and clearly, Subaru has an article which states they do not work this way).

If you still have a hard time understanding, read this link from drive magazine. It states exactly that the injectors only open during the intake stroke per cylinder.

http://drive2.subaru.com/Spr08/Spr08_whatmakes.htm

-Gabe

Additional from your last example trying to convert my math back:

Your math is wrong @ 6k sating it is 1500 rpm with 20ms intake stroke time. You must convert rev/time to time/rev at the correct point in your calculation. You are not doing this correctly (order of operations).

20 ms per 1/2 rev is what I state.
0.05 1/2 revs per ms (convert ms per 1/2 rev to rev per ms; it must be converted here)
0.1 revs per ms (make it a full rev)
100 revs per second @ 6k (second conversion)
6000 revs per minute @ 6k (minute conversion)

However, since we have calculated what it takes for one stroke and two strokes equals 1 rev, we can simply do the addition to state that 40ms per rev or 80ms @ 6k rpm IPW = 100% DC as the camshaft has now turned 360*. If the injector fires during a full revolution of the cam, you have 80ms of pulse width to deliver fuel. That would have the injector open all the time. The RR logger @ 100% DC is a true 1/4 of injector opening time per cam rev. Also, this is why WRX injectors are often a popular v8 swap as many modern v8's run in batch mode (due to intake manifold design, they do not have individual runners).

Here is an example:

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...z-p-19750.html

380cc injectors for a forced induction 350z???? WTF? Why do we need 550CC injectors then on a 300 hp stock FI engine? What gives? I mean, yeah 6 of those are near the same amount of flow as 4 stock STi injectors, but the 350/370zs make as much power or more than an STi. And these are an upgrade for forced induction on a 350z which puts it into the 400-500 whp range? The 350Z runs their injectors in batch mode.

The tuning books out there do not talk about sequential multi port. They were written back when fuel injection worked like your meth nozzle. That is, independent of whether the injector needed to fire only during the intake stroke and was pointed right at the intake valve in a runner. That is why the old saying of 80% IDC is the max you should go. Not on our cars. Our car's injectors never hit 80% true IDC. The cam does overlap a bit (duration) and this is why you can go to 110% logged IDC before the AFRs go wacky on an 07 STi. What interests me is that the AFRs go wacky @ 117% IDC on an 06 STi. My hunch is that the 07 has a shorter duration, higher lift cam. The exhaust cam did change to non sodium filled in 07. Also, I could get more power and tq on a stage 2 tune out of my 07 than my wife's 06.

One last edit... If this does not resolve the confusion, lets take the discussion over to RR forums. I can show you some code there.

Gabe

Last edited by gabedude; 08-28-2011 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:23 PM   #2078
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A while ago I used a spreadsheet to calculate injector flow requirement based on airflow that the engine/turbo is ingesting. It came up with:

At ~270g/s (typical STI flow rate at sea level), the fuel flow required is ~2020cc/min. With 4 injectors, I would need ~505cc/min from each. This would be the full capacity of the injectors and data logs also show ~100% IDC. Am I missing something here?
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:23 AM   #2079
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I don’t understand where you are getting .05=1/2rev. .05 is what? When 20ms=1/2rev I also come up with 1500rpm. 1rev/40ms=.025rpms=25rps=1500rpm
Correct me if I am wrong I am also having a hard time understanding how you are coming up with your results.

Last edited by tobywongg; 08-29-2011 at 04:56 AM.
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Old 08-29-2011, 08:14 AM   #2080
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Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
A while ago I used a spreadsheet to calculate injector flow requirement based on airflow that the engine/turbo is ingesting. It came up with:

At ~270g/s (typical STI flow rate at sea level), the fuel flow required is ~2020cc/min. With 4 injectors, I would need ~505cc/min from each. This would be the full capacity of the injectors and data logs also show ~100% IDC. Am I missing something here?
You based it on the ssm spec of IDC I would imagine which calculates IDC per 1/2 rev.

Is anyone reading the link from drive magazine or wikipedia? Look at the manifold design and tell me how exactly you could pool fuel in that runner for 3/4 of the time. Spray pattern would not even be important at that point.

Maybe a log will help.

Code:
TIME	AFC1	AFL1	AFS1	ATP	WTMP	LOAD	RPM	FBKC	FLKC	ILTC	IPW	IAM	IGN	IDC	IAT	VVT	NCA	KSUM	MRP	MASG	MASV	WGDC	TOA	VSPD	LC1
368609	0	0	12.49	14.07	189	1.5	3350	0	0	1.0392	9.73	1	30	27.43	111	14	2.76	9	1.25	86.37	2.98	46.67	100	40	12.44
368722	0	0	11.99	14.07	189	1.62	3384	0	0	1.0248	10.75	1	30	29.94	111	15	3.15	9	2.27	94.24	3.04	46.67	100	40	12.01
368833	0	0	11.22	14.07	189	1.73	3438	0	0	1.0272	11.52	1	30	33.28	111	15	3.51	9	3.25	101.51	3.1	46.27	100	40	11.91
368928	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	1.85	3506	0	0	1.0225	12.29	1	30	36.28	111	16	3.92	9	4.6	110.13	3.2	46.27	100	40	11.73
369041	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	1.97	3564	0	0	1.0225	13.31	1	30.5	39.86	111	17	5.93	9	5.79	118.71	3.28	45.88	100	40	11.82
369153	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	2.15	3592	0	0	1.0102	14.85	1	31	45.09	111	18	9.25	9	7.35	131.89	3.42	45.88	100	41	11.44
369250	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	2.4	3686	0	0	1.0562	16.64	1	31	52.46	111	20	13.37	9	9.01	148.09	3.56	45.49	100	41	11.2
369361	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	2.7	3744	0	0	1.0418	19.46	1	30.5	61.82	111	22	13.81	9	11.15	169.89	3.74	45.49	100	41	10.92
369474	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.09	3810	0	0	1.0465	22.78	1	29	72.85	111	23	14.82	9	14.23	201.97	3.9	45.1	100	41	10.85
369570	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.45	3914	0	0	1.0465	24.06	1	28.5	85.52	111	23	15.06	9	17.26	226.47	4.04	44.31	100	41	10.73
369682	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.82	4014	0	0	1.0538	27.65	1	27	97.15	111	23	15.43	9	19.97	261.1	4.18	44.31	100	43	10.51
369796	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	4.19	4123	0	0	1.078	30.46	1	26.5	107.99	111	22	15.3	9	22.72	299.04	4.26	41.18	100	43	10.33
369888	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	4.37	4268	0	0	1.066	30.21	1	26.5	109.26	111	21	15.03	9	23.59	306.89	4.28	37.65	100	43	10.69
370002	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	4.27	4446	0	0	1.0538	29.44	1	26.5	110.07	111	19	14.85	9	23.77	315.43	4.3	37.65	100	43	11.38
370096	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	4.07	4644	0	0	1.0562	27.9	1	27.5	111.24	109	17	15.07	9	23.38	312.01	4.28	37.65	100	47	11.73
370209	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.93	4868	0	0	1.061	27.39	1	28	113.99	109	14	15.12	9	23.02	314.41	4.36	36.47	100	47	12.07
370321	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.83	5149	0	0	1.0443	26.88	1	28	118.21	109	10	14.97	9	22.88	324.98	4.36	34.12	100	47	12.35
370418	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.73	5394	0	0	1.049	26.11	1	29	119.36	109	6	14.21	9	22.41	332.14	4.38	29.41	100	47	12.57
370531	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.62	5623	0	0	1.0588	25.09	1	30	119.42	109	1	14.06	9	21.64	337.37	4.38	27.06	100	47	12.58
370640	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.51	5758	0	0	1.0538	24.58	1	30.5	119.61	109	0	14.06	9	20.59	335.44	4.38	25.88	100	52	12.48
370736	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.46	5840	0	0	1.0588	24.32	1	30.5	117.96	109	1	14.06	9	20.16	336.74	4.38	24.71	100	52	12.39
370848	0	0	11.02	14.07	189	3.48	5783	0	0	1.078	24.06	1	30.5	113.45	109	1	14.06	9	19.7	334.14	4.32	27.06	100	52	12.35
The table again:

Code:
Calc	RPM/2	IRPM/60	ISPS/1000	1/ISMS
1000.00	500.00	8.33	0.008333	120.00
1500.00	750.00	12.50	0.012500	80.00
2000.00	1000.00	16.67	0.016667	60.00
2500.00	1250.00	20.83	0.020833	48.00
3000.00	1500.00	25.00	0.025000	40.00
3500.00	1750.00	29.17	0.029167	34.29
4000.00	2000.00	33.33	0.033333	30.00
4500.00	2250.00	37.50	0.037500	26.67
5000.00	2500.00	41.67	0.041667	24.00
5500.00	2750.00	45.83	0.045833	21.82
6000.00	3000.00	50.00	0.050000	20.00
6500.00	3250.00	54.17	0.054167	18.46
7000.00	3500.00	58.33	0.058333	17.14
7500.00	3750.00	62.50	0.062500	16.00
I have to take my daughter to school, but I can give more details later.
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Old 08-29-2011, 08:18 AM   #2081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobywongg View Post
I don’t understand where you are getting .05=1/2rev. .05 is what? When 20ms=1/2rev I also come up with 1500rpm. 1rev/40ms=.025rpms=25rps=1500rpm
Correct me if I am wrong I am also having a hard time understanding how you are coming up with your results.
Order of operations, read the previous post. I'll explain more tonight.
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:40 AM   #2082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobywongg View Post
I don’t understand where you are getting .05=1/2rev. .05 is what? When 20ms=1/2rev I also come up with 1500rpm. 1rev/40ms=.025rpms=25rps=1500rpm
Correct me if I am wrong I am also having a hard time understanding how you are coming up with your results.
6000 rpm/2=3000 intake cycles per min
3000cpm/60=50 cycles per sec
1sec/50cps=.02 sec per cycle
.02spc*1000=20ms of the cycle that injector can be opened
16ms ipw/20ms (100% time)=80%idc (time)

I don't see what is so complicated with that equation?
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:21 PM   #2083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
6000 rpm/2=3000 intake cycles per min
3000cpm/60=50 cycles per sec
1sec/50cps=.02 sec per cycle
.02spc*1000=20ms of the cycle that injector can be opened
16ms ipw/20ms (100% time)=80%idc (time)

I don't see what is so complicated with that equation?
Makes perfect sense. I have read several tuning books over the years and have been basing my understanding off of the information in them. Thanks for clearing that up, and thanks gabedude for taking the time to educate us.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:20 PM   #2084
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Just remember that some cars still do fire in batch mode or a variation of batch, but not many (mainly v6s due to firing order). For the calculations airboy mentions, the wikipedia link I posted has example formulas for sequential fuel injection to calculate pulse width, injector sizing, etc. In the formulas you can clearly see the calculations are for sequential injection as they are calculated on the intake stroke of the otto cycle.

Now, back to the topic at hand, where is Leslie? Is everyone getting similar results road dyno wise with fast poll vs non fast poll? Mine are near identical if logging only rpm and vs on regular mode.
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Old 08-30-2011, 06:04 AM   #2085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
Just remember that some cars still do fire in batch mode or a variation of batch, but not many (mainly v6s due to firing order). For the calculations airboy mentions, the wikipedia link I posted has example formulas for sequential fuel injection to calculate pulse width, injector sizing, etc. In the formulas you can clearly see the calculations are for sequential injection as they are calculated on the intake stroke of the otto cycle.

Now, back to the topic at hand, where is Leslie? Is everyone getting similar results road dyno wise with fast poll vs non fast poll? Mine are near identical if logging only rpm and vs on regular mode.
I tried the fast poll and ended up showing about 150hp lower than it would normally show. I was logging about 7 perams and used a smoothing factor of 3. Fyi...
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:45 AM   #2086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobywongg View Post
Makes perfect sense. I have read several tuning books over the years and have been basing my understanding off of the information in them. Thanks for clearing that up, and thanks gabedude for taking the time to educate us.
Another way to calculate idc is through fuel usage and size of the engine/CFM.

2.5ltr=152.6 cubic inches

152.6ci/1728 (cubic inches per foot)=.0883
6000rpm/2=3000 intake cycles per min.
3000cpm*.0883=265 cfm
265cfm*.95 (VE for 4 valve engine)=225.3cfm
225.3cfm*.076 (weight of 1 cubic ft of air)= 17 lbs/min of air
17 lbs/min/4 cylinders= 4.25 lbs/min per cylinder
4.25 lbs/11.0 afr= ((.3863 (target fuel value)))

Now take injector size
505cc/min=48 lbs/hr
48 lbs/60= (.8 lbs/min fuel max (100%idc))

Now figure IDC
.3863 (target fuel value)/.8 lbs/min max delivery= 48% IDC

This is on a N/A calculation. To figure on a forced induction I would use the cfm of your turbo charger to get you in the ball park. So if you used 498 cfm (vf22 at 14.7 psi) with the above equation you will be near 110% idc. The dynamics are great so trying to figure down to the exact % idc is not going to happen but, you can get a ball park figure. Hope this helps...
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:13 AM   #2087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
Another way to calculate idc is through fuel usage and size of the engine/CFM.

2.5ltr=152.6 cubic inches

152.6ci/1728 (cubic inches per foot)=.0883
6000rpm/2=3000 intake cycles per min.
3000cpm*.0883=265 cfm
265cfm*.95 (VE for 4 valve engine)=225.3cfm
225.3cfm*.076 (weight of 1 cubic ft of air)= 17 lbs/min of air
17 lbs/min/4 cylinders= 4.25 lbs/min per cylinder
4.25 lbs/11.0 afr= ((.3863 (target fuel value)))

Now take injector size
505cc/min=48 lbs/hr
48 lbs/60= (.8 lbs/min fuel max (100%idc))

Now figure IDC
.3863 (target fuel value)/.8 lbs/min max delivery= 48% IDC

This is on a N/A calculation. To figure on a forced induction I would use the cfm of your turbo charger to get you in the ball park. So if you used 498 cfm (vf22 at 14.7 psi) with the above equation you will be near 110% idc. The dynamics are great so trying to figure down to the exact % idc is not going to happen but, you can get a ball park figure. Hope this helps...
Nice. Now just add in BSFC for different fuel types.

Gabe
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:20 AM   #2088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
I tried the fast poll and ended up showing about 150hp lower than it would normally show. I was logging about 7 perams and used a smoothing factor of 3. Fyi...
Make sure to use MPH (if you can). I log all the important parameters, even on the pulls, I get 10-15hz with fast poll enabled. When I tell the spreadsheet to use only rpm, the TQ is way too low, but the peak power is the same. This has to do with the fast poll getting interrupted when the ECU has other higher priority threads/routines to run (which are many during a WOT run). I have stock sized tires still, so it works for me. Some work on the spreadsheet and more preprocessing for fast pull (remove the rpm points which do not increase fixes it as these are the points of interruption) would alleviate these issues. I think I will play with the spreadsheet this weekend to get rpm only to match rpm plus VS from my pulls.

It is useless as a tool IMHO if you cannot get reproducible close to real world numbers. I can get this because I have stock sized tires right now, but once the tire size changes, the logged VS is out the window. FWIW my logged VS matches my GPS, but VS is very slowly updated and reads slow past 120 mph. I would imagine this is because the ECU does even more high priority threads while under load for such a long time interrupting the ssm params. I have a log of some high speeds with fast poll. I will take a look at it to verify this.

Gabe

Last edited by gabedude; 09-03-2011 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 09-03-2011, 02:33 PM   #2089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
I tried the fast poll and ended up showing about 150hp lower than it would normally show. I was logging about 7 perams and used a smoothing factor of 3. Fyi...
What was the sampling rate? If it is more than ~15-20 samples per second, it will "break" the macro. The macro tries to determine which time units are used in the data logs (Cobb uses seconds, RR uses milli-seconds, some use absolute time). If the time stamps increments at < 50, it assumes the time unit is seconds so the acceleration calculations will be in error.

There is a small text box toward the lower right side of the page that indicates the time unit being selected. If it says "seconds" when you are using RR logs, that is the problem.

If you go into the macro editor you can change the threshold to, say, 10 and it should fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
I log all the important parameters, even on the pulls, I get 10-15hz with fast poll enabled. When I tell the spreadsheet to use only rpm, the TQ is way too low, but the peak power is the same.
can you send me a sample log?
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:13 PM   #2090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
What was the sampling rate? If it is more than ~15-20 samples per second, it will "break" the macro. The macro tries to determine which time units are used in the data logs (Cobb uses seconds, RR uses milli-seconds, some use absolute time). If the time stamps increments at < 50, it assumes the time unit is seconds so the acceleration calculations will be in error.

There is a small text box toward the lower right side of the page that indicates the time unit being selected. If it says "seconds" when you are using RR logs, that is the problem.

If you go into the macro editor you can change the threshold to, say, 10 and it should fix it.



can you send me a sample log?
What about vehicle speed vs non vehicle speed? Here is a graph. It definitely has the vehicle speed TQ curve and not the auto-calculated.

What do you think is going on here? I am thinking some of the rpms are missed or off because the ECU hits a more important routine.

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Old 09-06-2011, 01:58 AM   #2091
WRX_hatch
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I wish I could get in on this. After 13 months on the road without a problem, I was "followed home" by our town's finest (three consecutive nights!). I don't think they'd like me at redline in 3rd gear. What is that, about 90 mph for the 5 speed?

Edit- Labor Day Weekend fundraiser probably.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:42 AM   #2092
Junior2JZ
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My XTi on high boost. 8 less PSI it trapped 127mph @ 3560lbs.
The sample log was a bit short, but I pulled on a 134mph r35 GTR from a roll so im sure it is making some decent power.

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Last edited by Junior2JZ; 09-30-2011 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:54 AM   #2093
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How is the torque not dropping? It looks good down low. Can you add the boost curve to the plot?
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Old 09-30-2011, 01:01 AM   #2094
Junior2JZ
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
How is the torque not dropping? It looks good down low. Can you add the boost curve to the plot?
I said the same thing. I think the curve would be pretty flat on a real dyno though, but def have some drop off. I think it may have been because I was still accelerating pretty hard, I pull it to 8k and let off at 7k on that log. Tomorrow I will get some solid logs on my way to the track. I will get the boost plot up when I post the next one. Hope it doesn't let go
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Old 09-30-2011, 01:09 AM   #2095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
I said the same thing. I think the curve would be pretty flat on a real dyno though, but def have some drop off. I think it may have been because I was still accelerating pretty hard, I pull it to 8k and let off at 7k on that log. Tomorrow I will get some solid logs on my way to the track. I will get the boost plot up when I post the next one. Hope it doesn't let go
Start at 2000rpm to redline, that's what is recommended for road dynos. Yeah I noticed something similar but with HP. With my VF39 it holded power all the way to redline, when it was dyno on a mustang dyno it dropped some HP at redline.
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Old 11-19-2011, 01:16 AM   #2096
kleedzine
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I guess no more dyno.

Last edited by kleedzine; 12-23-2011 at 09:34 PM. Reason: dead thread
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:55 PM   #2097
gaby
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I updated a log , please revise, thanks.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2ZDT3NHc21qWHc
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:31 PM   #2098
banshee04
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Anybody still doing this?

Last edited by banshee04; 03-02-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:17 PM   #2099
medamullet
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I wish post 1 was updated. There are lots of good turbos in the last few years.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:59 AM   #2100
NoGraffix
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It'd be great if the community would have someone continue this
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