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01-15-2020, 06:48 PM | #351 | |
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Miatas are smaller cars with less components and less practicality, but cost MORE for the good spec models. Club models with the Recaro/Brembo package are $35k, and almost $40k for the hard top. BRZ's with all the good options are in the low $30s.
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01-15-2020, 06:55 PM | #352 |
Scooby Specialist
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01-15-2020, 07:23 PM | #353 |
Scooby Guru
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BRZ weened me off 'em, Brah!
But, I'm still interested in an STI hatch with an FA24DIT to replace my Impreza. That's just utility with marked performance. Otherwise if the STI isn't a hatch with a good engine, I'll keep my Impreza and see what happens with the BRZ being considered as a potential second vehicle. BRZ is just more fun and fits better in parking spaces. |
01-15-2020, 07:27 PM | #354 | |
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However, the EcoBoost weighs significantly more than the current gen naturally aspirated BRZ. How much will 2nd gen increase in weight? How much extra weight would the larger displacement turbo engine add? And potentially a beefier drivetrain, larger wheels/tires, and chassis changes (wheelbase, track, rigidity, etc.) that go along with developing a car that can handle that much of a power increase. Even the smaller, 2 seater, 4 cylinder Supra has an expected curb weight of ~3200 lbs. Add a backseat and likely less weight savings (cost cutting) and a turbo BRZ could be more than that. The EcoBoost High Performance Package (HPP) has 332 hp & 350 lb-ft and does 0-60 in the mid to high 4 second range.. STI territory. Combined with the handling package, the price jumps to ~$36k, but it provides a lot for the money. It receives similar treatment to the Mustang GT PP2 - Focus RS engine w/ 5% larger turbo, active exhaust, launch control, drive modes, MagneRide adjustable suspension, larger 4 piston brakes from the GT, upgraded sway bars, torsen lsd, chassis bracing, 9.5" wheels/265 width performance tires, retuned ABS, larger radiator.. and is able to generate over 1.0 G on the skidpad. It has a great powerband with 90% of available torque from 3,000 rpm to the 6,500 rpm redline. Ford performance will likely offer a warranty friendly tune boosting the power & redline. Probably in the realm of 350-370 hp & 370-400 lb-ft if it's anything like the standard EcoBoost Mustang and Focus RS. I'm not a huge Ford fan, but what they've done lately is impressive with this, the GT PP2, GT350 & GT500. If this is anything like the Mustang GT PP2, it will dominate on the track for its price point. I hope that we see a lightweight, FA24DIT BRZ with STI like power in the low $30s. I just think a naturally aspirated version is much more likely.. or we'll see a Recaro/Brembo turbo package for at least $35k or more. It's difficult to imagine Subaru & Toyota creating a car that would near the performance of the STI & Supra, but obviously I could be wrong. Last edited by WRXnick16; 01-16-2020 at 02:52 PM. |
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01-15-2020, 07:44 PM | #355 | |
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But, I see where CJ is coming from; N/A FA20 is disappointing especially when you realize that Mazda was able to get their 155-hp fuel sipper "economy" engine to redline from 6800 to 7500 RPM and gain 26 HP with a more consistent and usable torque output. Subaru and Toyota focused on destroking FB20 (90 mm to 86 mm) to slightly improve rod-to-stroke ratio and improve revs, but, in fact, it's not rev'ing any higher than the 91.2 mm Mazda long stroker. IMO, Subaru and Toyota should have turbocharged FB20 in the first place and called it a day. No need to rev to the moon, plenty of power way down low thanks to fast spooling long stroke, better fuel economy and emissions, better tolerance to average pump gas than FA20DIT. |
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01-15-2020, 08:11 PM | #356 | |
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Last edited by WRXnick16; 01-15-2020 at 08:21 PM. |
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01-15-2020, 09:04 PM | #357 | |
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The K20C1 in the CTR is using 143.66 mm rods; a nice 1.67:1 ratio (even better than K20A which uses shorter 139 mm rods, 1.62:1). With 129.3 mm rods, that's right on 1.50:1; that's not exactly good for healthy 8K RPM operation. The Mazda 2.0L is better equipped to spin to 8K (assuming oiling, direct injection and valve train can cope) with 154.8mm rods for 91.2 mm stroke. |
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01-15-2020, 09:30 PM | #358 |
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The FA in the twins is just an economy motor with a ton of fuelling thrown at it. It NEEDS headers and a tune to run right, and wakes up even more with flex fuel.
But the torque is actually the big issue and why it needs a turbo. A flat 6 would be great too, but that would put more weight over the front and hurt the ballance. So the right way to go is just a turbo motor. |
01-15-2020, 09:42 PM | #359 |
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small engines don't need torque if you let them spin. I'll always be a rotary-engine guy. At least until someone designs drop-in EV motors that let you replace common ICE motors. Someone want to invest in my idea? We'll call it SBDEV. Silent But Deadly.
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01-15-2020, 10:07 PM | #360 |
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01-15-2020, 10:30 PM | #361 |
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When I had my BRZ I drove below or above the torque dip. However, I've come to realize that most people don't push their daily drivers daily like I do. Whenever I attempted to drive my BRZ like a normal human being, more reactive, the torque dip could be unpleasant. However, wringing out the engine or working below the torque dip worked fine, provided one didn't mind putting in the extra effort, which I didn't, for the most part.
It's like people who complain about having to shift "too much". Such an odd complaint coming from enthusiasts. |
01-15-2020, 10:52 PM | #362 | |
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If I get tired of shifting, I’ll rock an auto for a day or two. |
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01-15-2020, 11:44 PM | #363 |
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Shifted through New York City traffic and beyond for a year. I am a little crazy though.
#NoTearsForFearsHere #Shift4Lyfe #MovementIsLife #WaterIsTheEssenceOfWetness |
01-16-2020, 12:09 AM | #364 |
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01-16-2020, 12:18 AM | #365 |
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for shorter trips its a useable 3 seater. my wife and her daughter are both under 5'5" so the brz worked fine for the 3 of us going out to a restaurant or something. nobody was sitting behind me though unless they were an amputee.
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01-16-2020, 12:27 AM | #366 |
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5 teenagers and a keg.
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01-16-2020, 12:46 AM | #367 |
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So what about an FMIC or TMIC?
Think the BRZ would get a hood scoop of some sort? Hard to picture anything Toyota with a TMIC and big hood scoop. They don't have room to do a TMIC without a hood scoop - that requires a ginormous, tall Ascent/Forester/Legacy/Outback style hood. |
01-16-2020, 06:13 AM | #368 |
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01-16-2020, 08:29 AM | #369 | |
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01-16-2020, 10:57 AM | #370 |
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01-16-2020, 04:25 PM | #371 | |
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01-16-2020, 05:29 PM | #372 | |
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01-16-2020, 08:35 PM | #373 | |||||
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A turbo FA24DIT BRZ would be the enthusiast's dream delivering the power that everyone has been asking for. But achieving a similar power-to-weight would require applying "STI" level treatment to the FA24DIT or significantly reducing the curb weight (increased cost). In its current form, the FA24DIT makes 260 hp & 277 lb-ft from 2,000 - 4,800 rpm. The EcoBoost provides a nice broad torque band making 315-350 lb-ft from 3,000 - 6,500 rpm. It's definitely possible to add another 40+ hp & tq to the FA24DIT, but would Toyobaru put a STI trim engine (w/ D-4S) in the twins? Modern day 22B? Regardless, I just hope the next gen performance FA DIT engines don't suffer from the same Subaru OEM tuning woes. They're amazing once you add an aftermarket flex fuel tune, but driving my FA20DIT WRX on 91 during California's summer heat was scary at times. I never knew when I could rely on the power when pulling out from a stop. FWIW, reviews have highly praised the 2020 Mustang EcoBoost w/ the High Performance & Handling Packages as it borrows parts from the Focus RS, GT PP2 & GT350. It should put up a good fight against a turbo BRZ/86 unless Toyobaru delivers something truly awe-inspiring while keeping it reasonably priced (eg budget Supra w/ manual trans). Hopefully we get to see a track comparison sometime in the future Some reviews regarding the Handling Package dynamics: Quote:
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01-16-2020, 09:48 PM | #374 |
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It's worth noting that the EB Handling Package is only available on the High Performance Package, so it's now a $36,400 car now.
I think a Camaro 2.0T or 3.6 V6 are viable options too that come in cheaper than the EB HP. |
01-16-2020, 10:23 PM | #375 | |
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What would you expect the MSRP to be for a FA24DIT BRZ with a "performance package" (Brembos, Bilsteins/adjustable dampers, active exhaust, drive modes, launch control, chassis bracing, wider wheels/stickier tires, etc.)? The naturally aspirated BRZ with the performance package is ~$31k, the BRZ tS nears $33k if you add the optional short shifter, the 86 can easily reach $32k with the TRD handling package, and over $33k if you stard adding optional TRD components (springs, sway bars, exhaust, etc.). Last edited by WRXnick16; 01-16-2020 at 10:37 PM. |
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