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Old 01-15-2020, 06:48 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
When you compare the MX-5 to the BRZ, the twins' being overpriced is clear to see.
I disagree and see the opposite.

Miatas are smaller cars with less components and less practicality, but cost MORE for the good spec models. Club models with the Recaro/Brembo package are $35k, and almost $40k for the hard top. BRZ's with all the good options are in the low $30s.
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Old 01-15-2020, 06:55 PM   #352
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...I'm just not into turbos these days.
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:23 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!
BRZ weened me off 'em, Brah!

But, I'm still interested in an STI hatch with an FA24DIT to replace my Impreza. That's just utility with marked performance.

Otherwise if the STI isn't a hatch with a good engine, I'll keep my Impreza and see what happens with the BRZ being considered as a potential second vehicle. BRZ is just more fun and fits better in parking spaces.
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:27 PM   #354
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The mustang weighs significantly more than the BRZ so I disagree. With a turbo, the aftermarket would have it a similar power/wt. I would buy it I've a echoboost as it would handle way better and would be more fun with similar power.
I don't disagree about the weight difference. Cars continue to get heavier (except the Miata).

However, the EcoBoost weighs significantly more than the current gen naturally aspirated BRZ. How much will 2nd gen increase in weight? How much extra weight would the larger displacement turbo engine add? And potentially a beefier drivetrain, larger wheels/tires, and chassis changes (wheelbase, track, rigidity, etc.) that go along with developing a car that can handle that much of a power increase. Even the smaller, 2 seater, 4 cylinder Supra has an expected curb weight of ~3200 lbs. Add a backseat and likely less weight savings (cost cutting) and a turbo BRZ could be more than that.

The EcoBoost High Performance Package (HPP) has 332 hp & 350 lb-ft and does 0-60 in the mid to high 4 second range.. STI territory. Combined with the handling package, the price jumps to ~$36k, but it provides a lot for the money. It receives similar treatment to the Mustang GT PP2 - Focus RS engine w/ 5% larger turbo, active exhaust, launch control, drive modes, MagneRide adjustable suspension, larger 4 piston brakes from the GT, upgraded sway bars, torsen lsd, chassis bracing, 9.5" wheels/265 width performance tires, retuned ABS, larger radiator.. and is able to generate over 1.0 G on the skidpad. It has a great powerband with 90% of available torque from 3,000 rpm to the 6,500 rpm redline. Ford performance will likely offer a warranty friendly tune boosting the power & redline. Probably in the realm of 350-370 hp & 370-400 lb-ft if it's anything like the standard EcoBoost Mustang and Focus RS.

I'm not a huge Ford fan, but what they've done lately is impressive with this, the GT PP2, GT350 & GT500. If this is anything like the Mustang GT PP2, it will dominate on the track for its price point.

I hope that we see a lightweight, FA24DIT BRZ with STI like power in the low $30s. I just think a naturally aspirated version is much more likely.. or we'll see a Recaro/Brembo turbo package for at least $35k or more. It's difficult to imagine Subaru & Toyota creating a car that would near the performance of the STI & Supra, but obviously I could be wrong.

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Old 01-15-2020, 07:44 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
I disagree and see the opposite.

Miatas are smaller cars with less components and less practicality, but cost MORE for the good spec models. Club models with the Recaro/Brembo package are $35k, and almost $40k for the hard top. BRZ's with all the good options are in the low $30s.
Plus I don't fit comfortably in a Miata anyway. Fat bastard who's fat issue .
But, I see where CJ is coming from; N/A FA20 is disappointing especially when you realize that Mazda was able to get their 155-hp fuel sipper "economy" engine to redline from 6800 to 7500 RPM and gain 26 HP with a more consistent and usable torque output.
Subaru and Toyota focused on destroking FB20 (90 mm to 86 mm) to slightly improve rod-to-stroke ratio and improve revs, but, in fact, it's not rev'ing any higher than the 91.2 mm Mazda long stroker.
IMO, Subaru and Toyota should have turbocharged FB20 in the first place and called it a day.
No need to rev to the moon, plenty of power way down low thanks to fast spooling long stroke, better fuel economy and emissions, better tolerance to average pump gas than FA20DIT.
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:11 PM   #356
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N/A FA20 is disappointing especially when you realize that Mazda was able to get their 155-hp fuel sipper "economy" engine to redline from 6800 to 7500 RPM and gain 26 HP with a more consistent and usable torque output.

Subaru and Toyota focused on destroking FB20 (90 mm to 86 mm) to slightly improve rod-to-stroke ratio and improve revs, but, in fact, it's not rev'ing any higher than the 91.2 mm Mazda long stroker.
Yep, 86mm is the same stroke as Honda's K20a capable of revving to 9,000 rpm. Obviously we're comparing an inline 4 to a flat 4. The K20 has a better rod-to-stroke ratio as the result of longer rods. I suspect the FA20 is limited in engine width (and therefore rod length) in order to fit in the engine bay. But it should still be easily capable of revving to 8,000 rpm given the piston speed and the rod-to-stroke ratio (with supporting hardware and proper oiling). The heavier pistons and increased friction from the 90mm bore in the FA24 may lower that a bit.

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Old 01-15-2020, 09:04 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Yep, 86mm is the same stroke as Honda's K20a capable of revving to 9,000 rpm. Obviously we're comparing an inline 4 to a flat 4. The K20 has a better rod-to-stroke ratio as the result of longer rods. I suspect the FA20 is limited in engine width (and therefore rod length) in order to fit in the engine bay. But it should still be easily capable of revving to 8,000 rpm given the piston speed and the rod-to-stroke ratio (with supporting hardware and proper oiling).
Yeah, rod length on FA/FB engines is 129.3 mm; slightly shorter than EJ rods.
The K20C1 in the CTR is using 143.66 mm rods; a nice 1.67:1 ratio (even better than K20A which uses shorter 139 mm rods, 1.62:1).
With 129.3 mm rods, that's right on 1.50:1; that's not exactly good for healthy 8K RPM operation.
The Mazda 2.0L is better equipped to spin to 8K (assuming oiling, direct injection and valve train can cope) with 154.8mm rods for 91.2 mm stroke.
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:30 PM   #358
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The FA in the twins is just an economy motor with a ton of fuelling thrown at it. It NEEDS headers and a tune to run right, and wakes up even more with flex fuel.

But the torque is actually the big issue and why it needs a turbo. A flat 6 would be great too, but that would put more weight over the front and hurt the ballance. So the right way to go is just a turbo motor.
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:42 PM   #359
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small engines don't need torque if you let them spin. I'll always be a rotary-engine guy. At least until someone designs drop-in EV motors that let you replace common ICE motors. Someone want to invest in my idea? We'll call it SBDEV. Silent But Deadly.
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:07 PM   #360
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But the torque is actually the big issue and why it needs a turbo. ... So the right way to go is just a turbo motor.
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:30 PM   #361
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When I had my BRZ I drove below or above the torque dip. However, I've come to realize that most people don't push their daily drivers daily like I do. Whenever I attempted to drive my BRZ like a normal human being, more reactive, the torque dip could be unpleasant. However, wringing out the engine or working below the torque dip worked fine, provided one didn't mind putting in the extra effort, which I didn't, for the most part.

It's like people who complain about having to shift "too much". Such an odd complaint coming from enthusiasts.
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:52 PM   #362
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It's like people who complain about having to shift "too much". Such an odd complaint coming from enthusiasts.
Not the same. Depending if you’re dailying an MT and your particular commute can get to the point of stop n go bumper to bumper for miles at a time, it can get tiresome. Mines not that bad, but has gotten significantly worse since my last MT. Fewer chances to have fun. That said, I’ll be buying another MT whatever I end up getting.
If I get tired of shifting, I’ll rock an auto for a day or two.
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:44 PM   #363
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Shifted through New York City traffic and beyond for a year. I am a little crazy though.

#NoTearsForFearsHere

#Shift4Lyfe

#MovementIsLife

#WaterIsTheEssenceOfWetness
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:09 AM   #364
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Yeah, but those two extra seats though!
Who the hell can fit back there?
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:18 AM   #365
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Who the hell can fit back there?
for shorter trips its a useable 3 seater. my wife and her daughter are both under 5'5" so the brz worked fine for the 3 of us going out to a restaurant or something. nobody was sitting behind me though unless they were an amputee.
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:27 AM   #366
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5 teenagers and a keg.
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:46 AM   #367
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So what about an FMIC or TMIC?
Think the BRZ would get a hood scoop of some sort?
Hard to picture anything Toyota with a TMIC and big hood scoop.
They don't have room to do a TMIC without a hood scoop - that requires a ginormous, tall Ascent/Forester/Legacy/Outback style hood.
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Old 01-16-2020, 06:13 AM   #368
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Who the hell can fit back there?
Sometimes it's not always about "who", but rather "what". :-)
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:29 AM   #369
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small engines don't need torque if you let them spin. I'll always be a rotary-engine guy. At least until someone designs drop-in EV motors that let you replace common ICE motors. Someone want to invest in my idea? We'll call it SBDEV. Silent But Deadly.
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/10/14/...v-conversions/
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:57 AM   #370
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Who the hell can fit back there?
The 5"2 21 year old Asian woman I am dating could, easily.
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Old 01-16-2020, 04:25 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
I don't disagree about the weight difference. Cars continue to get heavier (except the Miata).

However, the EcoBoost weighs significantly more than the current gen naturally aspirated BRZ. How much will 2nd gen increase in weight? How much extra weight would the larger displacement turbo engine add? And potentially a beefier drivetrain, larger wheels/tires, and chassis changes (wheelbase, track, rigidity, etc.) that go along with developing a car that can handle that much of a power increase. Even the smaller, 2 seater, 4 cylinder Supra has an expected curb weight of ~3200 lbs. Add a backseat and likely less weight savings (cost cutting) and a turbo BRZ could be more than that.

The EcoBoost High Performance Package (HPP) has 332 hp & 350 lb-ft and does 0-60 in the mid to high 4 second range.. STI territory. Combined with the handling package, the price jumps to ~$36k, but it provides a lot for the money. It receives similar treatment to the Mustang GT PP2 - Focus RS engine w/ 5% larger turbo, active exhaust, launch control, drive modes, MagneRide adjustable suspension, larger 4 piston brakes from the GT, upgraded sway bars, torsen lsd, chassis bracing, 9.5" wheels/265 width performance tires, retuned ABS, larger radiator.. and is able to generate over 1.0 G on the skidpad. It has a great powerband with 90% of available torque from 3,000 rpm to the 6,500 rpm redline. Ford performance will likely offer a warranty friendly tune boosting the power & redline. Probably in the realm of 350-370 hp & 370-400 lb-ft if it's anything like the standard EcoBoost Mustang and Focus RS.

I'm not a huge Ford fan, but what they've done lately is impressive with this, the GT PP2, GT350 & GT500. If this is anything like the Mustang GT PP2, it will dominate on the track for its price point.

I hope that we see a lightweight, FA24DIT BRZ with STI like power in the low $30s. I just think a naturally aspirated version is much more likely.. or we'll see a Recaro/Brembo turbo package for at least $35k or more. It's difficult to imagine Subaru & Toyota creating a car that would near the performance of the STI & Supra, but obviously I could be wrong.
When I bought my GT350, I drove all 4 mustangs out at the time. The gt350 is the only one that feels and drives like a track car. You give the BRZ similar power to wt and there is no contest between it and the echoboost. I would probably take it over the GT for the price because you would have to get the magnaride to get close and the cost difference is stupid between the mustang and the probable BRZ price point. If they put a turbo in that car it will fly off the lots.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:29 PM   #372
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yeah, that's the article that I was thinking about. It'd be kinda sweet to have a kit designed for a specific car where you replace the drivetrain and gas tank with equiv EV parts. Leave the transmission in for for cars like a Miata so you can still shift gears. torque is a concern with the transmissions tho and so is RPM.
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:35 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by jimmi View Post
You give the BRZ similar power to wt and there is no contest between it and the ecoboost. If they put a turbo in that car it will fly off the lots.
I agree, but for a similar power-to-weight ratio it'll need at least ~280-300 hp & 300 lb-ft given the inevitable weight gain from a larger, more powerful turbocharged engine & supporting drivetrain. Especially considering the smaller, 2 seater, 4 cylinder Supra comes in around ~3,200 lbs.

A turbo FA24DIT BRZ would be the enthusiast's dream delivering the power that everyone has been asking for. But achieving a similar power-to-weight would require applying "STI" level treatment to the FA24DIT or significantly reducing the curb weight (increased cost). In its current form, the FA24DIT makes 260 hp & 277 lb-ft from 2,000 - 4,800 rpm. The EcoBoost provides a nice broad torque band making 315-350 lb-ft from 3,000 - 6,500 rpm. It's definitely possible to add another 40+ hp & tq to the FA24DIT, but would Toyobaru put a STI trim engine (w/ D-4S) in the twins? Modern day 22B?

Regardless, I just hope the next gen performance FA DIT engines don't suffer from the same Subaru OEM tuning woes. They're amazing once you add an aftermarket flex fuel tune, but driving my FA20DIT WRX on 91 during California's summer heat was scary at times. I never knew when I could rely on the power when pulling out from a stop.

FWIW, reviews have highly praised the 2020 Mustang EcoBoost w/ the High Performance & Handling Packages as it borrows parts from the Focus RS, GT PP2 & GT350. It should put up a good fight against a turbo BRZ/86 unless Toyobaru delivers something truly awe-inspiring while keeping it reasonably priced (eg budget Supra w/ manual trans). Hopefully we get to see a track comparison sometime in the future

Some reviews regarding the Handling Package dynamics:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car&Driver
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ormance-drive/

Think of the EcoBoost Handling package as the 4 cylinder's equivalent of the V-8's optional GT Performance Pack Level 2 (PP2). The Handling pack is more forgiving on a daily basis than the PP2, yet similarly rewarding. It significantly improves driver engagement, thanks to adaptive dampers, hardier brake pads, and an even stiffer rear anti-roll bar. Stickier 265/40R-19 Pirelli P Zero Corsa4 tires on wider 19-inch wheels also contribute to additional cornering grip and steering fidelity.

The difference is noticeable. With the Handling package, the car turns into corners more directly and offers better feedback on-center, and there's none of the road-following tramlining that's omnipresent on the Mustang's GT PP2 and Shelby GT350 variants. Combined with the grippier tires, the updates transform the Mustang EcoBoost into a road scalpel that almost never understeers around corners and maintains a remarkably civil ride quality over undulating tarmac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorTrend
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...mance-package/

Supplementing poise is a $1,995 Handling Package, which brings a thicker rear anti-roll bar, half-inch-wider wheels with 265 section tires, upgraded differential, and stronger brakes. It also adds new magnetic dampers featuring logic developed for the GT350. The effect is a more buttoned-down ride, providing more road sensation to the driver while reducing body roll.

Undoing acceleration is left to brakes cribbed from the Mustang GT. Front 352mm vented rotors are clamped by fixed four-piston calipers, while 330mm solid discs out back are 10mm larger than those on standard V-8 cars. These stoppers feel well matched to the power delivery: strong but not grabby, responsive yet predictably progressive. Ford Performance rewrote the ABS module's programming based on learnings from the GT350 to allow better trail-braking.

This car's 200-ish-pound front-end weight savings over the GT is constantly appreciable. The steering possesses a certain delicacy, smooth on turn-in and stable through tight hairpins and long sweepers. This car's 53/47 front/rear weight distribution should help keep both ends in check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor1
https://www.motor1.com/reviews/37188...e-pack-review/

This is the most agile version of today's 4 cylinder Ford Mustang. With handling components from the GT Performance pack and Focus RS engine underhood, the Mustang HPP blends muscle car-worthy straight-line speed with lightweight sports car-like handling.

Pay for the optional Handling package. Trust us. It's worth every penny of its $1,995 asking price (available atop the High Performance package). With it, the Mustang HPP transforms from merely quick in a straight line to uncharacteristically precise and agile in corners, too. Included in the package is a new Pirelli P Zero Corsa tire, half-inch wider wheels, the Mustang GT Level 2 Performance pack's stabilizer bars, Ford's borrowed MagneRide adaptive dampers, and a torsen limited-slip rear end.

Where the standard Mustang HPP almost feels too soft for the torquey new engine, the Handling pack tightens things up to near perfection. There's no more on-center steering slop or ambiguity at turn-in. The weightier steering is a revelation, and it delivers a genuine sharpness and quickness that's just a notch or two behind handling greats like the Mazda MX-5 Miata and Toyota 86.

The stickier Corsa tires (265/40R vs 255/40R) and 0.9-inch wider track, along with the 3.55:1 limited-slip rear axle, give this Mustang loads of gripping power. Engineers quote a lofty 1.0 G of maximum lateral grip with the Handling pack. For reference, the Shelby GT350 does 1.09 Gs on the skidpad.

The Mustang EcoBoost HPP with the Handling package offers serious gains over the standard HPP in the cornering department. Up the twisty pavement of California 1 state road, the car gives off unyielding confidence.

The Focus RS engine and Mustang GT Performance pack's handling bits turn the merely okay Mustang EcoBoost into something great. Not only is the HPP genuinely quick, it's agile and sharp, as well, and comparable to other great-handling cars in the class. It's no straight-line menace like the Mustang GT, but fans of flingable, four-cylinder sports cars now have a brilliant new prospect in the EcoBoost HPP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrive
The topic of chassis tweaks is most significant when the car is fitted with Ford's optional EcoBoost Handling Package-only available as an add-on to the HPP-bringing beefier stabilizer bars, a MagneRide suspension, and a Torsen limited-slip rear differential. Aerodynamic bodywork is borrowed from the Mustang GT Performance Package. Combine these modifications with a unique Pirelli Corsa4 tire compound and you have the best-handling Mustang short of the far more expensive GT350. The lower curb weight (3,632 pounds) further aids its willingness to dive and pivot into sharp turns.

The MagneRide suspension keeps you glued to the tarmac, and the Torsen diff makes for a substantial kit that will hold a racing line far past the limit of the standard 'Stang.
Okay, this was my last post on the EcoBoost
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Old 01-16-2020, 09:48 PM   #374
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It's worth noting that the EB Handling Package is only available on the High Performance Package, so it's now a $36,400 car now.

I think a Camaro 2.0T or 3.6 V6 are viable options too that come in cheaper than the EB HP.
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:23 PM   #375
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It's worth noting that the EB Handling Package is only available on the High Performance Package, so it's now a $36,400 car now.
That's true. But I think it's still a pretty good performance value. I hope to see Car & Driver test it on their VIR lightning lap.

What would you expect the MSRP to be for a FA24DIT BRZ with a "performance package" (Brembos, Bilsteins/adjustable dampers, active exhaust, drive modes, launch control, chassis bracing, wider wheels/stickier tires, etc.)?

The naturally aspirated BRZ with the performance package is ~$31k, the BRZ tS nears $33k if you add the optional short shifter, the 86 can easily reach $32k with the TRD handling package, and over $33k if you stard adding optional TRD components (springs, sway bars, exhaust, etc.).

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